Coaching success

You truly believe people as detail oriented as Coyle and Fleck do not do this? You haven't heard Fleck talk numerous times about getting the consistency of Iowa and Wisconsin? How quick do you believe it happens? Man, Flecks just starting to really get the recruiting wheel going. He's shown he can develop guys, he hit a speed bump of two bad classes in a row. That will kill anyone minus Alabama. Our young guys are athletic and lets see if they continue to get better. They didn't have the luxury of making their mistakes against cupcakes. They had to learn against other B1G teams.
Based on the evidence of the D, they have a long way to go. At this ;point, I dont see the athleticism of which you speak. They appear very, very slow in comparison. Perhaps it is simply youth and inexperience. I sure hope so.....
 

Where are the last three years of recruits, they were starting freshman LB from Anoka.
 

WI & IA caught lightning in a bottle with legacy coaches Alvarez & Fry and had the AD support to back it up. No other B1G team has been able to replicate that model, so it's obviously not easy to do. I believe Coyle & Fleck are trying to build that here, but it takes time. It's become a punchline, but Fleck's zigzag graph is exactly that idea.
Ohio State seems to be doing well. Would reasonably argue the same for Penn St, yes I know this is a bad start for them, though they should be 2-2 right now.

Losing isn't the problem.

None of these umpteen threads would've happened if it hadn't been for the embarrassment that was on the field Fri night. If our guys look liked they belonged on the same field as Iowa, and the game was close, the loss would've been just fine.
 

Where are the last three years of recruits, they were starting freshman LB from Anoka.
MSM starts. Rush was moved to DL. Braelen Oliver is out for the year. Both Gordon and Willis were out for COVID reasons the first two games, but have played the past two weeks while Lindenberg's PT has slowly decreased. If you want to check the roster, I'm sure you can comment on the other LB recruits.
 



Based on the evidence of the D, they have a long way to go. At this ;point, I dont see the athleticism of which you speak. They appear very, very slow in comparison. Perhaps it is simply youth and inexperience. I sure hope so.....
I hope so too. You’re not wrong that evidence has shown we have had issues on D. I think we are plenty athletic, I think we look slow because we take bad angles, are in the wrong spots cause of bad reads, and still not confident so we are getting bad jumps. Leash is shorter though, but I believe PJF will continue to get it fixed.
 

Not really, this is not OSU or Alabama. It is a concern not a celebration.

Any coach who leaves for a different job does so because they feel it is more desirable for their life.

Why would it not be. Coaches are not slaves or prisoners.
 

WI & IA caught lightning in a bottle with legacy coaches Alvarez & Fry and had the AD support to back it up. No other B1G team has been able to replicate that model, so it's obviously not easy to do. I believe Coyle & Fleck are trying to build that here, but it takes time. It's become a punchline, but Fleck's zigzag graph is exactly that idea.
I think Northwestern has a good formula as well.
 

Not counting the two year Gary Andersen experiment -- in which he went 13-3 in conference - Wisconsin has had:

Alvarez 1990-2005 (16 seasons) - 65-60-3 in Big Ten - 3 Rose Bowl wins & top 12 finishes (93, 98, 99)
Bielema 2006-2012 (7 seasons) - 37-12 in Big Ten - 2 legit Rose Bowls (both losses) & top 12 finishes (2010,11) + top 12 finish (no Rose Bowl, went to Michigan instead) (2006)
Chryst 2015-2020 (6 seasons) - 36-10 in Big Ten - 3 top 12 finishes and NY6 bowl games (2016, 17, 19)

And it seems 2020 is shaping up to be similar to 2017 for Wisc.


Wisc is just getting better. The only thing they can't do is beat Ohio St in the championship game.
Not counting the two year Gary Andersen experiment -- in which he went 13-3 in conference - Wisconsin has had:

Alvarez 1990-2005 (16 seasons) - 65-60-3 in Big Ten - 3 Rose Bowl wins & top 12 finishes (93, 98, 99)
Bielema 2006-2012 (7 seasons) - 37-12 in Big Ten - 2 legit Rose Bowls (both losses) & top 12 finishes (2010,11) + top 12 finish (no Rose Bowl, went to Michigan instead) (2006)
Chryst 2015-2020 (6 seasons) - 36-10 in Big Ten - 3 top 12 finishes and NY6 bowl games (2016, 17, 19)

And it seems 2020 is shaping up to be similar to 2017 for Wisc.


Wisc is just getting better. The only thing they can't do is beat Ohio St in the championship game.
I really, REALLY hate to admit this, but I admire what Wisconsin as been able to do with their program. They are currently everything I wish our program was. Good, consistent and mean on both sides of the ball. I think that attitude and the ability to physically back it up is a very important part to why they are good year in and year out. The Gophers don’t play with an edginess on either side of the ball with the exception of Ibrahim and his running style. We need to fix that and in a hurry.
 



Ohio State seems to be doing well. Would reasonably argue the same for Penn St, yes I know this is a bad start for them, though they should be 2-2 right now.

Losing isn't the problem.

None of these umpteen threads would've happened if it hadn't been for the embarrassment that was on the field Fri night. If our guys look liked they belonged on the same field as Iowa, and the game was close, the loss would've been just fine.
Ohio State seems to be doing well. Would reasonably argue the same for Penn St, yes I know this is a bad start for them, though they should be 2-2 right now.

Losing isn't the problem.

None of these umpteen threads would've happened if it hadn't been for the embarrassment that was on the field Fri night. If our guys look liked they belonged on the same field as Iowa, and the game was close, the loss would've been just fine.
This is so true. As I said in another thread, how you lose is important. I don’t expect 11-2 every year at this point. But if we had not blown the Maryland game and were 2-2 with those two losses being competitive in the fourth quarter, I’d chalk it up to rebuilding after a lot of attrition. Alas, that isn’t the case.
 

Where are the last three years of recruits, they were starting freshman LB from Anoka.
It's not that hard to google "247 minnesota gopher recruiting class" to see all the recruits.
From there you can right-click any given name and "search google" for their name to see what they've done.

What google won't tell you is if they aren't playing due to COVID.
 

Iowa and Wisconsin have double the budget for assistant coaches. Maybe that has something to do with it? Or is every issue due to Fleck's ego? Leonard makes like a mil a year, Parker makes like 600K. Rossi is at 400K. Gets tough to keep guys when other schools will throw out more money.

Granted the Gophers are at the bottom of the list in assistant coach pay, however, not exactly double the budget for Iowa/Wis. There is a bigger gap between tOSU/Michigan and Wisconsin than the gap between Wisconsin and Minnesota:

  1. Ohio State – $6.295 million
  2. Michigan – $6.005 million
  3. Michigan State – $4.901 million
  4. Iowa – $4.710 million
  5. Nebraska – $4.475 million
  6. Wisconsin – $4.368 million
  7. Maryland – $3.690 million
  8. Indiana – $3.684 million
  9. Purdue – $3.535 million
  10. Illinois – $3.446 million
  11. Rutgers – $3.221 million
  12. Minnesota – $3.055 million
  13. Penn State/Northwestern – Numbers not reported
 

I really, REALLY hate to admit this, but I admire what Wisconsin as been able to do with their program. They are currently everything I wish our program was. Good, consistent and mean on both sides of the ball. I think that attitude and the ability to physically back it up is a very important part to why they are good year in and year out. The Gophers don’t play with an edginess on either side of the ball with the exception of Ibrahim and his running style. We need to fix that and in a hurry.
I agree wholeheartedly with the first part. They've built that program into what it is now over the span of 30 years. Alvarez brought a system and committed to it. He had a couple blips on the radar in terms of difficult seasons, but he laid the foundation for success.

My HOPE is that PJ is doing the same thing. He's brought a system (certainly on O...defense I'm not so sure) and is committed to it, come hell or high water. He's recruiting better than any coach at MN...ever. He's also brought a unique system of living and relating to each other as a team and to the community with his "Row the Boat" mantra. We won't know for a couple more years whether PJ is laying the foundation for long-term success at Minnesota akin to what Alvarez did at Wisconsin. We ALL want wins NOW, but building a program is a long play.
 



The biggest problem for schools like Minnesota (ignoring all our special factors related to geography (physical distance to high level recruits), and climate): there are massive barriers to upward mobility.

It's a zero-sum game.

If we want to be the new Wisconsin, that means we have to cast them down to where we are now. But they aren't just going to sit there and accept that.

Iowa is there as well, although a half-step lower than Wisc.

Nebraska thinks it should be rising up. Purdue wants to rise up. NW has been usually stable and new practice facilities wants to rise up. Illinois ....... well not much going there right now.



There aren't enough wins for everyone to win 10+ games every season.
 

Granted the Gophers are at the bottom of the list in assistant coach pay, however, not exactly double the budget for Iowa/Wis. There is a bigger gap between tOSU/Michigan and Wisconsin than the gap between Wisconsin and Minnesota:

  1. Ohio State – $6.295 million
  2. Michigan – $6.005 million
  3. Michigan State – $4.901 million
  4. Iowa – $4.710 million
  5. Nebraska – $4.475 million
  6. Wisconsin – $4.368 million
  7. Maryland – $3.690 million
  8. Indiana – $3.684 million
  9. Purdue – $3.535 million
  10. Illinois – $3.446 million
  11. Rutgers – $3.221 million
  12. Minnesota – $3.055 million
  13. Penn State/Northwestern – Numbers not reported

I should have said what they pay the coordinators is double what the gophers pay.
 

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part. They've built that program into what it is now over the span of 30 years. Alvarez brought a system and committed to it. He had a couple blips on the radar in terms of difficult seasons, but he laid the foundation for success.

My HOPE is that PJ is doing the same thing. He's brought a system (certainly on O...defense I'm not so sure) and is committed to it, come hell or high water. He's recruiting better than any coach at MN...ever. He's also brought a unique system of living and relating to each other as a team and to the community with his "Row the Boat" mantra. We won't know for a couple more years whether PJ is laying the foundation for long-term success at Minnesota akin to what Alvarez did at Wisconsin. We ALL want wins NOW, but building a program is a long play.
Not sure on defensive system? He has said it from day 1. 4-3 defense.

His defense was outstanding last year and matches up well with other good defenses from the past.

2019: 22.5PPG - 122.4 RushYdsPG - 184.2 PassYdsPG
2016: 22.1- 117.8- 230.9
2014: 23.4- 161.2- 201.5
2013: 22.2- 158.2- 215.1
2003: 21.9- 122.7- 217.7
1999: 16.33- 140.2- 179.4
 

A classic 4-3 is not our defense.

We have 3 DL with their hand on the ground, usually, and then a "rush end" that is in a 2 point stance and plays a kind of hybrid role between a DE and an OLB. Closer to what an OLB plays in a classic 3-4 system.

I would also guess we have run more plays with defensive personnel of -2-5 (LB-DB) than -3-4. J Harris as the nickle corner sees plenty of plays.
 

I think Northwestern has a good formula as well.
Yeah, I just meant specifically the model at WI & IA since those are the teams gopherjay mentioned. I see the model for long-term success at NW as slightly different. But even beyond that, I can see Coyle-Fleck trying to build what Devaney-Osborne had going at Nebraska. One can dream, right...
 

I can see Coyle-Fleck trying to build what Devaney-Osborne had going at Nebraska

???

Why would you choose a historically non-Big Ten team, whose historical success was not in the Big Ten, as your model to aspire to, when we have perfectly good, closer geographically, and completely Big Ten historic models to select from?
 

Any coach who leaves for a different job does so because they feel it is more desirable for their life.

Why would it not be. Coaches are not slaves or prisoners.

Swing and a miss. A revolving staff gradually degrades recruiting, does not develop players, and is not competitive on a consistent basis. That is failure. winners do not skate all over the place and the rewards follow success. People can say all day that coaches leave for promotions but in our case it is something else driving this. We maintain the same staff and you will see an improved year next year.
 

Swing and a miss. A revolving staff gradually degrades recruiting, does not develop players, and is not competitive on a consistent basis. That is failure. winners do not skate all over the place and the rewards follow success. People can say all day that coaches leave for promotions but in our case it is something else driving this. We maintain the same staff and you will see an improved year next year.

You are looking at it from a staff standpoint. Yes. Ideally you want the same staff. Less turnover, etc.

But from an individual standpoint, the individual coach wants to succeed and find better income and family balance to meet their personal goals in life.

In many cases that means moving up to better paying jobs or jobs closer to home. If you are successful enough where you become in-demand, that's a good thing so you have more options to meet your personal goals.

If you have coaches leaving your staff to take better jobs, then you are doing something right. If you have loyalty where you have people that won't leave, that's great, but some people are loyal because they don't have other options.
 

You are looking at it from a staff standpoint. Yes. Ideally you want the same staff. Less turnover, etc.

But from an individual standpoint, the individual coach wants to succeed and find better income and family balance to meet their personal goals in life.

In many cases that means moving up to better paying jobs or jobs closer to home. If you are successful enough where you become in-demand, that's a good thing so you have more options to meet your personal goals.

If you have coaches leaving your staff to take better jobs, then you are doing something right. If you have loyalty where you have people that won't leave, that's great, but some people are loyal because they don't have other options.
OK, so using "there's a new position coach/DC/OC" excuse is then off the table, right?
 

Swing and a miss. A revolving staff gradually degrades recruiting, does not develop players, and is not competitive on a consistent basis. That is failure. winners do not skate all over the place and the rewards follow success. People can say all day that coaches leave for promotions but in our case it is something else driving this. We maintain the same staff and you will see an improved year next year.
Kill touted his loyal staff, as soon as Claeys got the keys to the car he sacked the offensive coordinator. I think building their own coaching tree is a sign of an excellent coach.
 

OK, so using "there's a new position coach/DC/OC" excuse is then off the table, right?

No.
You are drawing the wrong conclusions.

From a personal stand point a promotion is good. It's always good for coaches to better themselves. When they do, that is success. They are doing well, and people around them must be benefiting from them doing well. We celebrate people being successful. It's the American dream coming true.

For a staff, sure it would be great if you had all the best coaches and they never wanted to move on to better jobs, but that's not how it works. You have success, and some will leave to get better jobs whether bigger schools, more money, or more responsibility.

The idea that you celebrate success of a coach and therefore, magically your staff isn't going to have to replace that person is illogical. Ideally you have a fine balance of both. Coaches moving on to better jobs due to success, and another round of coaching who joined your staff via a promotion from within (or outside hire) who then bring new ideas and further success.

Is it always a straight line to success? 50 years of Gophers football would tell us the answer is "no".
 

Leidner was a physical and athletic QB, he was not a trained QB and his demise was his accuracy. Morgan is a 6 foot QB who runs a 5 second 40, his arm strength is average, he is able to compete because he is a trained QB and has the right mental training. Minnesota appreciates him because they have not had many trained QB's. He was blessed with two excellent receivers last year and a good line with two 6 or 7 year RB's. When you watch Saturday college games around the country, there are many QB's in Morgan's mold. Every program recruits a 6'5" QB that runs a 4.6 forty, but as you can see not to many pan out or are available. Look at Milton from Michigan, he will make a good TE some day. Great physical presence, look who took over some 6' kid from Nevada that demonstrated great accuracy.
 



I see your point, most schools have several camps each Jun/July. The majority of the youth camps are named after the coaches. They all have positional camps. Having attended a few of these camps you have listed, it felt like PJF was emphasizing his brand. I get it, I see what he is trying to achieve. We will see if he is able to make it stick.
 

No.
You are drawing the wrong conclusions.

From a personal stand point a promotion is good. It's always good for coaches to better themselves. When they do, that is success. They are doing well, and people around them must be benefiting from them doing well. We celebrate people being successful. It's the American dream coming true.

For a staff, sure it would be great if you had all the best coaches and they never wanted to move on to better jobs, but that's not how it works. You have success, and some will leave to get better jobs whether bigger schools, more money, or more responsibility.

The idea that you celebrate success of a coach and therefore, magically your staff isn't going to have to replace that person is illogical. Ideally you have a fine balance of both. Coaches moving on to better jobs due to success, and another round of coaching who joined your staff via a promotion from within (or outside hire) who then bring new ideas and further success.

Is it always a straight line to success? 50 years of Gophers football would tell us the answer is "no".
Your answer basically supports my question.
 





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