Ben Johnson is NOT a disaster....

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bga1 said:
I am torn on what should or will happen if he gets 7-8 wins. One could easily say- well with the portal, the new guy can reload and be good right away. But that may well not be reality here at the U of M. Reloading through the portal takes money and perhaps a lot of it. Unless you get a big name replacement I have no idea where that money would come from. If Ben is on the edge (an edge that is unacceptable to most here) I just find it difficult to believe that they will dump him. Do we want to melt it down and start over again?
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I do think it’s fair to want to see his “first” class as upper classmen, as players can be expected to turn the corner at that stage. On the flip side, CBJ’s recruitment strategy delayed his foundation by a year so I’m less eager than I would be normally. I dont think he should simply get a pass for signing guys with only 1 year of eligibility when he was hired.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Ever helped build company? Ever build a department within an existing company?
Are you an entrepreneur, so you started your own company?

I’m asking as I’m wondering what measuring stick you’re using?
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Probably wins and losses. Maybe even retention of transfers that he has brought in.
 

bc2211 said:
Probably wins and losses. Maybe even retention of transfers that he has brought in.
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I was replying to OP’s comment -

I wish I could be this bad at my job and stay employed.

I wanted to know what his reference point was visa vie his vocation.
 

bc2211 said:
I do think it’s fair to want to see his “first” class as upper classmen, as players can be expected to turn the corner at that stage. On the flip side, CBJ’s recruitment strategy delayed his foundation by a year so I’m less eager than I would be normally. I dont think he should simply get a pass for signing guys with only 1 year of eligibility when he was hired.
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He shouldn't get a pass for year one but I'm betting Coyle understood what the plan was. They made the decision to bring in a big recruiting class in 2022 and the only way to do that was to have a bunch of guys in 2021 who were 1 year only players. It isn't the path that a lot of fans would want to go with but it is what they went with.

Year 1 - Build roster from scratch, focus on 1 year guys in order to bring in a large 2022 class since the 2021 class was already done (and worthless as it turned out in terms of TT). 2 guys lost in preseason to season ending injuries.

Year 2 - Heavy reliance on true freshman, 2 season ending injuries again sap depth.

Year 3 - Finally getting to see the team with a healthy roster of players and solid depth. Still young but showing signs of progress. Potential for nearly the whole team to return next year and some high upside guys emerging.
 



howeda7 said:
Northwestern is unranked and it's a home game. If we're double digit dogs to an unranked team that's pretty pathetic. We were 3 point dogs to #13 Wisconsin 5 days ago.
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OK! Apparently beating OSU by 25 means nothing. A team we lost to by 10.

Losses to IU by 12, Iowa by 9, and MSU by 10 probably don’t mean anything either.
 

forever a gopher said:
I wish I could be this bad at my job and stay employed. This is the most brilliant tactic one could think of. Be so bad in your first two years that anything better than "terrible" looks like improvement. Pitino goes 8-12 and 6-14 in his last two years and gets fired. Now CBJ look like he might eek out 7 wins and the parades are already being planned.

I like Payne and Christie. Hawkins and Mitchell have been good (mostly). They are good players, not transcendent players. But any anxiety about losing players due to a coaching change is asinine. They'll be gone in 1-2 years (or potentially sooner). You do not hold onto a coach because a player or two. And even with those "high potential" players, the best case scenario when looking at the schedule (IMO) is 8 wins and most likely scenario is another Weakling Wednesday appearance. And losing that "momentum" is freaking some out? You may need to see a professional if that's triggering anxiety for you.
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You can.

It's called "senior leadership".
 
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MNVCGUY said:
He shouldn't get a pass for year one but I'm betting Coyle understood what the plan was. They made the decision to bring in a big recruiting class in 2022 and the only way to do that was to have a bunch of guys in 2021 who were 1 year only players. It isn't the path that a lot of fans would want to go with but it is what they went with.

Year 1 - Build roster from scratch, focus on 1 year guys in order to bring in a large 2022 class since the 2021 class was already done (and worthless as it turned out in terms of TT). 2 guys lost in preseason to season ending injuries.

Year 2 - Heavy reliance on true freshman, 2 season ending injuries again sap depth.

Year 3 - Finally getting to see the team with a healthy roster of players and solid depth. Still young but showing signs of progress. Potential for nearly the whole team to return next year and some high upside guys emerging.
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I get it - he had no tape and no previous system to sell. Bringing in seniors was a way to put something coherent together to sell. And I know it’s hard to fill a roster
with spring recruits.

I will die on this particular hill though: there must have been an unheralded point guard and/or shooting specialist available at that time that would now, in year three, either be 1) playing a valuable 10+ minutes in relief as a ball handler or floor spacer, or 2) long gone and not taking up a scholarship. That was a major oversight, imo, and I continue to question CBJ’s ability to build a roster because of it. Year 4 will be the first time a freshman pg is in his system, and it will be year 6 before he has a point guard who has been there more than 2 years. I know people like their 6-9 wings, but college basketball is still won with point guards and centers.

I’m not trying to focus on the negative. The floor has been raised substantially this year, and basketball is more interesting again. Steal a couple more games this year and we all have the luxury of continuing this conversation for at least one more.
 

MplsGopher said:
OK! Apparently beating OSU by 25 means nothing. A team we lost to by 10.

Losses to IU by 12, Iowa by 9, and MSU by 10 probably don’t mean anything either.
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It doesn't mean anything. It'll be NW -2/2.5 or so if that.
 



bc2211 said:
I will die on this particular hill though: there must have been an unheralded point guard and/or shooting specialist available at that time that would now, in year three, either be 1) playing a valuable 10+ minutes in relief as a ball handler or floor spacer, or 2) long gone and not taking up a scholarship. That was a major oversight, imo, and I continue to question CBJ’s ability to build a roster because of it. Year 4 will be the first time a freshman pg is in his system, and it will be year 6 before he has a point guard who has been there more than 2 years. I know people like their 6-9 wings, but college basketball is still won with point guards and centers.
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Difficult to say. As you said.....filling a roster with spring recruits is tough enough as it is....without the pressure of finding remaining unsigned high school players with lots of potential. But after some of the swings Pitino took to fill out recruiting classes.....I can understand why just grabbing a player for the hell of it may not be the route to take. Hawkins will hopefully still be here next year....and with him....there should be enough guys who can handle the ball while Asuma develops.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Ever helped build company? Ever build a department within an existing company?
Are you an entrepreneur, so you started your own company?

I’m asking as I’m wondering what measuring stick you’re using?
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Spot on response.
 





MplsGopher said:
OK! Apparently beating OSU by 25 means nothing. A team we lost to by 10.

Losses to IU by 12, Iowa by 9, and MSU by 10 probably don’t mean anything either.
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The betting line is set to get as close to 50-50 action on both teams as possible; the book gets paid regardless of who wins - they take their %.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Ever helped build company? Ever build a department within an existing company?
Are you an entrepreneur, so you started your own company?

I’m asking as I’m wondering what measuring stick you’re using?
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The U of M isn’t a new company. Gopher basketball isn’t a new department. The department has advantages that 80% of other similar departments around the country don’t have.

Ben inherited 10 of possible 13 ‘employees’, and 9 of those didn’t want to work for Ben. 3 years in, Ben hasn’t come close to reaching the incredibly low bar the previous department head set. Ben has reduced the company to levels that haven’t been seen in 60 years.
 

I think all the BJ haters are just racist.
Grow up dude, it's the 90s.
 

Streven said:
I think all the BJ haters are just racist.
Grow up dude, it's the 90s.
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That's just a horrendous take. The huge, huge, huge majority of fans on here don't care if head coach is black, white, yellow, green or whatever. Just win, baby. Were those who wanted Pitino gone racist? Everyone on here loved Clem.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
The betting line is set to get as close to 50-50 action on both teams as possible; the book gets paid regardless of who wins - they take their %.
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This is where the analytics sites are most useful. Right now, t-rank has NW as less than a point favorite at the barn and close to an 8 point favorite when the Gophs visit NW in the last game of the year. Those will be close to the opening betting lines, subject to info about injuries and such. Then the betting lines move with the action.
 

MNVCGUY said:
He shouldn't get a pass for year one but I'm betting Coyle understood what the plan was. They made the decision to bring in a big recruiting class in 2022 and the only way to do that was to have a bunch of guys in 2021 who were 1 year only players. It isn't the path that a lot of fans would want to go with but it is what they went with.

Year 1 - Build roster from scratch, focus on 1 year guys in order to bring in a large 2022 class since the 2021 class was already done (and worthless as it turned out in terms of TT). 2 guys lost in preseason to season ending injuries.

Year 2 - Heavy reliance on true freshman, 2 season ending injuries again sap depth.

Year 3 - Finally getting to see the team with a healthy roster of players and solid depth. Still young but showing signs of progress. Potential for nearly the whole team to return next year and some high upside guys emerging.
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It isn't even a path that he really followed or even really makes sense today.

I think he probably was forced into going down this path because of timing and the state of the program but our FR-heavy year 2 class isn't that heavy. I think it would be foolish to not expect some attrition (Henley) and there was clearly no need to bring in Betts a season early.

Our depth wasn't sapped by injuries, our lack of depth was exposed because of injuries. The injured guys in Year 2 played positions of strength (Payne, Garcia, Battle, JOJ should have been eating up those minutes), he simply did not recruit enough competent wings/guards.

Knock on wood, if Hawkins, Mitchell, or Christie miss any time this year, we are, again, cooked.
 

TNGophfan said:
That's just a horrendous take. The huge, huge, huge majority of fans on here don't care if head coach is black, white, yellow, green or whatever. Just win, baby. Were those who wanted Pitino gone racist? Everyone on here loved Clem.
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I think he's being sarcastic (it's not the 90's).
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
The U of M isn’t a new company. Gopher basketball isn’t a new department. The department has advantages that 80% of other similar departments around the country don’t have.

Ben inherited 10 of possible 13 ‘employees’, and 9 of those didn’t want to work for Ben. 3 years in, Ben hasn’t come close to reaching the incredibly low bar the previous department head set. Ben has reduced the company to levels that haven’t been seen in 60 years.
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But in the most recent quarter we only lost $5/ share and last year it was $10. Progress!
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
to levels that haven’t been seen in 60 years.
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You either have a short memory or a selective memory — I suspect both. In his 7 years as head coach, Dan Monson finished 10th of the then ten teams in the Big Ten 3 times and 9th once.
 

Go4POV said:
You either have a short memory or a selective memory — I suspect both. In his 7 years as head coach, Dan Monson finished 10th of the then ten teams in the Big Ten 3 times and 9th once.
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Either that or he has access to Google.

Dan Monson was 9-23 in the Big 10 in his first two seasons (.281 winning percentage).
Ben Johnson was 6-33 in the Big 10 in his first two seasons (.153 winning percentage).
 

Go4POV said:
You either have a short memory or a selective memory — I suspect both. In his 7 years as head coach, Dan Monson finished 10th of the then ten teams in the Big Ten 3 times and 9th once.
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GWG was correct and it's you with the faulty memory: Monson won 40% of his Big 10 games and BJ is at a 21% clip. It's not even close
 


I'd be surprised if we didn't get 8+ wins and if Ben wasn't back for another year.

If we can't go 4-7 with this schedule and the level of Big Ten this year, not good:

NW @ Home (Winnable)
MI State @ Home (Winnable)
Iowa @ Road (Likely L)
Purdue @ Road (Likely L)
Rutgers @ Home (Very Winnable)
Ohio St @ Home (Very Winnable)
Nebraska @ Road (Likely L)
Illinois @ Road (Likely L)
Penn St @ Home (Very Winnable)
Indiana @ Home (Very Winnable)
NW @ Road (Likely L)

I'll say we go 5-6 and finish 9-11 in Big Ten, 18-13 Overall (NIT Bubble?)
 

Go4POV said:
You either have a short memory or a selective memory — I suspect both. In his 7 years as head coach, Dan Monson finished 10th of the then ten teams in the Big Ten 3 times and 9th once.
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In addition to what the others already responded to, Dan Monson took over after a scandal with scholarship reductions and a postseason ban in year one. He was still able to at least make the NIT in years 2, 3, and 4.

You definitely have a selective memory.
 

A few notes of coaching comparison. Mike Krzyzewski, arguably the greatest college bb coach of all time, started at Duke in '80-'81 season, and his first three years were BAD.

'80-81 17-13 (6-8 conf.)
'81-'82 10-17 (4-10 conf.)
'82-'83 11-17 (3-11 conf.)

CBJ first three years thus far:

'21-22 13-17 (4-16 conf.)
'22-'23 9-22 (2-17 conf.)
'23-'24 current 13-7 (4-5 conf.)

For those who look only at wins and losses, they are comparable. I would argue that CBJ had it more difficult with player exits, injuries, Covid, but that's arguable due to portal gains/losses, plus he didn't have head coach experience like Coach K. Do I think CBJ will be the next Krzyzewski? Nobody knows. Unlikely, but that doesn't mean he's a bad coach. Do I think he's doing an admirable job thus far building a program from the ground up with local talent, playing gritty MN bb? Yes. (Of note, Asuma is now a higher rated recruit than Freitag). The next few years will be indicative of the trajectory the program is heading, and I think its positive.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
The betting line is set to get as close to 50-50 action on both teams as possible; the book gets paid regardless of who wins - they take their %.
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I forget this part. My bad.

So in other words it’s to sucker in Minnesota fans who are saying “No way we lose by more than single-digits! It’s at home!! Hell we might win!!” into taking the bet.
 

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