STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

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Gopher_Vet said:
Bethel University is in the MIAC and offers A BS IN electrical and computer engineering. They consider themselves a liberal arts university. They also offer degrees in business, nursing, athletic training...
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Look at that, I was wrong. Egg on my face. The U, St Thomas, and Bethel.

The latter two are, by definition, not liberal arts colleges. They’re comprehensive universities, and both should be in DII.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Yep. You nailed it!!!

MIT, Caltech, Johns Hopkins, Carnegie Mellon .... and St Thomas. Birds of a feather, am I right?!?

Couldn’t possibly be any more different than if you were comparing Central Florida and St Scholastica. But don’t let that get in your way.
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I never said that they were similar. You made up an idiotic rule that if you have an engineering school, you should be D2. It's an insanely stupid rule that you then tried to use as proof that St. Thomas shouldn't be D3.

I'll tell you this much, St. Thomas is more similar to Carnegie Mellon than it is to Northern State.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You made up an idiotic rule that if you have an engineering school, you should be D2.
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Nope. I advocated no such “rule”. I made specific judgements about two schools (now, mostly one previously). That you misunderstood that, is of course your own fault.

Bob_Loblaw said:
St. Thomas is more similar to Carnegie Mellon than it is to Northern State.
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Wrong again. Zero is not greater than zero.

Definitely more similar to Concordia St Paul and U Sioux Falls, though.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Do you know if MIT has an engineering school?

You made up a rule to fit your opinion. You can argue that St. Thomas doesn't fit the mold of the MIAC schools, but it certainly isn't unique in D3 schools.


MIT, RPI, Johns Hopkins, Case Western. . . all D3. . . all fantastic engineering schools.
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Right. I think it's important to separate the two.

It's pretty easy to say UST doesn't really belong in the MIAC based on the profile of the school compared to other MIAC members. I think most would agree on that.

It's a different thing to say they have to go D2. There would likely be a lot of disagreement about that.

I'm of the opinion that they should explore the D2 option, but if they want to stay D3 I'm sure they could find a way to do it and that's fine.

(I'd argue that UST isn't really comparable to the schools you mention, but I don't think you were using them to make a comparison and more to make a point. And I think I mostly agree with your point -- simply having an engineering school doesn't mean you can't be D3.)
 

bizzle22 said:
It's a different thing to say they have to go D2.
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No one was saying they are forced to do anything. That was just his misunderstanding.

Realistically though, what are their options? Wisconsin? Independent? Nah. Northern Sun is a far better choice.
 


Gophers_4life said:
Nope. I advocated no such “rule”. I made specific judgements about two schools (now, mostly one previously). That you misunderstood that, is of course your own fault.



Wrong again. Zero is not greater than zero.

Definitely more similar to Concordia St Paul and U Sioux Falls, though.
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You typed the sentences below "As I’ve said, it’s the only school in the metro besides the U where you can get a bachelor’s degree in engineering. That’s not a liberal arts college. That’s a comprehensive university. And that’s DII."

So it's my fault that I deduced that you thought that any school with an engineering school should not be D3? I get that you have no idea what you're talking about all of the time, but this really was your premise. You have been beating this drum in this entire thread. It's okay if you want to run from this idea, it's an idiotic premise.
 

Gophers_4life said:
No one was saying they are forced to do anything. That was just his misunderstanding.

Realistically though, what are their options? Wisconsin? Independent? Nah. Northern Sun is a far better choice.
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You certainly hinted at that. I can see why you're backpedaling from that now, but you did say that "that's DII". That sort of implies that you think they should be playing D2 football rather than D3 football because they have an engineering program.

I get why you're backpedaling now, it was a really dumb idea.

As to their other options, they could certainly be independent and play a mixed schedule with D2 and D3 schools (including some MIAC rivals). They could go D2. I think they probably will go D2. It has nothing to do with them having an engineering school though.
 

Indeed it is your fault that you can’t piece together that the majority of the MIAC are liberal arts colleges, being a comprehensive university is not a liberal arts college, and the DII NSun is their most realistic option outside of the MIAC. I mean, a fifth grader gets it, but I’m not going to hold your hand. Rather, I slammed the lid of the cookie jar down and broke your hand, once again. Get some ice.

No doubt, you’ll be doubling down on your previous incorrect argument that St Thomas is the same thing as Johns Hopkins. Can’t wait to let my ST alumni contacts know!
 
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Gophers_4life said:
Indeed it is your fault that you can’t piece together that the majority of the MIAC are liberal arts colleges, being a comprehensive university is not a liberal arts college, and the DII NSun is their most realistic option outside of the MIAC. I mean, a fifth grader gets it, but I’m not going to hold your hand. Rather, I slammed the lid of the cookie jar down and broke your hand, once again. Get some ice.

No doubt, you’ll be doubling down on your previous incorrect argument that St Thomas is the same thing as Johns Hopkins. Can’t wait to let my ST alumni contacts know!
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Here is my quote for you: "You can argue that St. Thomas doesn't fit the mold of the MIAC schools, but it certainly isn't unique in D3 schools." So why do you keep bringing up the profile of the MIAC schools? I said it in my initial post, my entire point was to rip on your idiotic argument that schools with engineering programs aren't D3. It was literally the most insanely stupid argument anyone has made. I get that now you have to do the "tough guy" stuff and talk about slamming my hand in the cookie jar, we all see it for what it is. You're feeling a little bashful over making such an idiotic statement considering schools like Johns Hopkins, CalTech, MIfreakingT are D3 in football.

But St. Thomas and Johns Hopkins do have some things in common, they both have engineering programs and they play D3 foottball.

But just so there is no longer any misunderstanding on the issue, we both agree, having an engineering program has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a school should be playing Division II or Division III football? Right? Note, I didn't say the MIAC, I specifically said D3 (from the very beginning, I quoted my original post on the topic).
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
having an engineering program has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a school should be playing Division II or Division III football?
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In specific cases, where being a liberal arts college is at the core mission of a conference and where there are no other realistic options for staying in DIII, it certainly can be a factor.

There is no NCAA rule requiring it, but no one ever said there was or should be. Red herring

N Sun schools can’t and won’t schedule an independent DIII ST. Can’t speak to every conference of course, but my suspicion is that being DIII independent, having scrap together a hodgepodge schedule for every sport, having no conference honors for athletes, would be the worst case nightmare scenario for ST’s Ad. If they can get into the Wisconsin or Iowa conferences, so be it. Maybe they’d even accept the UMAC, but I doubt it.
 

Gophers_4life said:
In specific cases, where being a liberal arts college is at the core mission of a conference and where there are no other realistic options for staying in DIII, it certainly can be a factor.

There is no NCAA rule requiring it, but no one ever said there was or should be. Red herring

N Sun schools can’t and won’t schedule an independent DIII ST. Can’t speak to every conference of course, but my suspicion is that being DIII independent, having scrap together a hodgepodge schedule for every sport, having no conference honors for athletes, would be the worst case nightmare scenario for ST’s Ad. If they can get into the Wisconsin or Iowa conferences, so be it. Maybe they’d even accept the UMAC, but I doubt it.
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You're really hung up on that MIAC thing even though I refuted it in my initial email. You are refusing to answer your question, huh tough guy?

Since you won't answer it, I'll just put a bow on it for you, you've backed down from your idiotic statement that because St. Thomas has an engineering school, "that's DII". I'm glad you backed down, I just wish you could just admit it.

As far as other alternatives, I've said from the beginning that the Northern Sun might make the most sense for UMD. That's completely missing the point. It's certainly not their only option. Mac was an independent in football until 2014. St. Thomas could put together a schedule of MIAC rivals and other D3 or D2 schools. I don't know anything about the Northern Sun by-laws with scheduling D3 schools, but they'd be absolutely foolish to not take a game with St. Thomas.

But it's okay, you can keep pretending that this argument is really about what would be the best conference for St. Thomas and not your half-cooked idea that being D3 and having an engineering school is incompatible.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
that because St. Thomas has an engineering school, "that's DII".
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Which is correct in this specific case, as it always was about. You threw out a red herring and got your hand broken in the cookie jar. Trying to save face now with hand waiving.

Bob_Loblaw said:
I've said from the beginning that the Northern Sun might make the most sense for UMD. That's completely missing the point. It's certainly not their only option. Mac was an independent in football until 2014. St. Thomas could put together a schedule of MIAC rivals and other D3 or D2 schools. I don't know anything about the Northern Sun by-laws with scheduling D3 schools, but they'd be absolutely foolish to not take a game with St. Thomas.
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UMD??

Would have to go back and look at MAC schedules back then, but guessing it is full of lower level DIII programs which would be unacceptable for ST.

NSun is off the table for them as a DIII. You can go look yourself at any NSun schedule. They play a full conf schedule now. Otherwise Moorhead St would be scheduling Concordia yearly.

And you ignore all the other sports that would have to scrape together an independent schedule. MAC did not have that. Ton of work, their AD doesn’t want that.

Is being expelled in football only, an option? I have not heard that, maybe we’ll see.
 

I think we're getting off-track here.

There are (IMHO) two basic questions here:

1. is St. Thomas, as it currently exists, a good fit with the other MIAC schools?

2. Should the other MIAC schools try to have St. Thomas removed from the conference?

And my answers would be:

1. No

2. Yes

engineering programs aside, I just don't see St. Thomas as a good fit with the other schools in the conference. It's not one program, it's their entire approach to balancing athletics with academics. IMHO, St. Thomas wants to have its cake and eat it, too. They want to build up their athletic facilities - which are already comparable with a lot of D2 schools - but they also want to stay in a D3 conference. Basically, they want to be a really big fish in a little pond.

If St Thomas goes D2, they will adapt and survive. And the MIAC will survive.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
I think we're getting off-track here.

There are (IMHO) two basic questions here:

1. is St. Thomas, as it currently exists, a good fit with the other MIAC schools?

2. Should the other MIAC schools try to have St. Thomas removed from the conference?

And my answers would be:

1. No

2. Yes

engineering programs aside, I just don't see St. Thomas as a good fit with the other schools in the conference. It's not one program, it's their entire approach to balancing athletics with academics. IMHO, St. Thomas wants to have its cake and eat it, too. They want to build up their athletic facilities - which are already comparable with a lot of D2 schools - but they also want to stay in a D3 conference. Basically, they want to be a really big fish in a little pond.

If St Thomas goes D2, they will adapt and survive. And the MIAC will survive.
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That and conferences are a bunch of teams that choose to play together... if the issue is some don't want to... that's kinda how conferences work.
 

Great post SON. Agreed, it’s time for St Thomas to move on to the next challenge.
 

It would be interesting if they could poll all the athletes in the MIAC and ask them if they want UST booted? Guarantee there would be more votes to keep them than boot them. If you are a competitor you want a chance to play good teams. Take Hamline basketball for example. Do you think their players would rather play UST twice or play Crown College and Northland? Football would Concordia Moorhead like to play UST and have a chance to make a great memory or Macalester? Guarantee these athletes are competitors and would rather play UST. Just my two cents...
 


Interesting fact from the Strib article. the Athletic budget at St. Thomas - the money they spend on their athletic programs - is higher than the athletic budget at D2 SW MN State University in Marshall.

The article did note that it would be theoretically possible for St. Thomas to apply for membership in the WIAC - the D3 conference in Wisconsin. The WIAC does not have any by-laws that would prohibit a MN team from applying. That would also potentially allow St. Thomas to continue its annual game with St. John's.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Interesting fact from the Strib article. the Athletic budget at St. Thomas - the money they spend on their athletic programs - is higher than the athletic budget at D2 SW MN State University in Marshall.

The article did note that it would be theoretically possible for St. Thomas to apply for membership in the WIAC - the D3 conference in Wisconsin. The WIAC does not have any by-laws that would prohibit a MN team from applying. That would also potentially allow St. Thomas to continue its annual game with St. John's.
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But it does also say that staying DIII as a full independent is all it guaranteed off the table.

Will be interesting to see if they pick WIAC or NSIC, assuming the former is actually a legit choice and the UW schools would entertain it.
 

I wonder if this means goodbye to the hockey team?
 

4four4 said:
I wonder if this means goodbye to the hockey team?
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If anything, that's the one sport that can jump directly to DI ... if they want to try that, and fund it like that. I'm sure some boosters are having some pretty big daydreams now. We will see.
 

Gophers_4life said:
If anything, that's the one sport that can jump directly to DI ... if they want to try that, and fund it like that. I'm sure some boosters are having some pretty big daydreams now. We will see.
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It is a sub .500 team in D3 competition, so that would be pretty hard.
 

Gophers_4life said:
A wonderful, and rare article from the STrib on this subject: http://www.startribune.com/if-miac-drops-st-thomas-the-tommies-options-are-complicated/509992312/

Just a straight reporting of facts. No BS opinions. A lot of the facts confirming things I’ve said here.
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You really did hit the nail on the head, the article states that UST would have several options, like stay in DIII or move up to DII. You said they are a DII school because they have an engineering program and they had no other real option than move up to DII because of that darn engineering program. Yep, it confirmed exactly what you said.
 

PMWinSTP said:
It is a sub .500 team in D3 competition, so that would be pretty hard.
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Like I said, if they were going to fund it like a legit DI team ... that would be a step change in money. They could buy a DI head coach, start recruiting DI players. Never know. I mean, you look at a Podunk backwoods school like Bimidji St ... but they invested in their team, and while it's not NCHC, it's a pretty solid program.
 


Gophers_4life said:
Like I said, if they were going to fund it like a legit DI team ... that would be a step change in money. They could buy a DI head coach, start recruiting DI players. Never know. I mean, you look at a Podunk backwoods school like Bimidji St ... but they invested in their team, and while it's not NCHC, it's a pretty solid program.
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You did? Using Bemidji State as your comparison example shows just how utterly clueless you are. Can't wait for your next pivot...
 

It's going to cost UST $20 million to fund a D1 hockey program. Where would they play? Aldrich? No, they can play at Braemar.
 

4four4 said:
It's going to cost UST $20 million to fund a D1 hockey program. Where would they play? Aldrich? No, they can play at Braemar.
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It’s not guaranteed that they’ll plunk down the cash to fund it at the DI level. But there are plenty of little nothing DII schools that have DI hockey, like Bemidji, so that is a good example of what the investment can do, if they want to make it.
 


Gophers_4life said:
Is perfectly valid, and you’ve made no attempt to reason otherwise.
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13 NAIA Tournament appearances, 5 NCAA Division III Tournament appearances, 8 NCAA Division II Tournament appearances, 4 NCAA Division I Tournament appearances.

7 NAIA National Championships, 1 NCAA Division III National Championship, 5 NCAA Division II National Championships. Were in the D II National championship game seven of the eight seasons preceding their move to D I.

Reason provided.
 

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