STrib: Academic gap between black, white players persists on Gophers football roster

[maroonedinCA]

ok, what genetically defines african american? might as well break it out by state and blame the state.

If there were discernable figures that showed a certain state faired worse in college process with a stronger correlation than between races I'm sure they would address that. Race is a widely accepted classification. In an attempt to seem altruistic you're actually turning a blind eye towards those you supposedly support by failing to recognize a problem they face.

 

[dpodoll68]

All I know is this was atrocious under Brew.

What's that now?

 

[killme]

Interesting that the STRIB left out that the gap last year was 30.
52 for African-American student football athlete and 82 for white student football athlete.
This year's data is 54 and 90.

http://www.tidesport.org/ncaagraduationrates.html

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the STrib doing the Gophers a favor by not showing the problem got worse over a year? Enough harping on the Twin Cities media

Correcting you when you're wrong is a regular occurrence. I don't think there is nearly enough harping on TC media. As consumers, we should complain loudly and often until they correct their behavior to suit us.

 

[TrapperDoo]

If there were discernable figures that showed a certain state faired worse in college process with a stronger correlation than between races I'm sure they would address that. Race is a widely accepted classification. In an attempt to seem altruistic you're actually turning a blind eye towards those you supposedly support by failing to recognize a problem they face.

What problem do they face?

 

[maroonedinCA]

Correcting you when you're wrong is a regular occurrence. I don't think there is nearly enough harping on TC media. As consumers, we should complain loudly and often until they correct their behavior to suit us.

So the gap widened, right? Am I missing something? Last year was 52 to 82 graduation rates and now its 54 to 90 (a difference of 36 instead of 30).

ETA: The media's responsibility isn't to please consumers. It's to report on what it believes to be facts and/or offer op-eds that try to inform the opinions of their reading/viewing area. Nowhere is a news papers main mission to adjust their behavior to conform to some readers wants/needs.

 

[maroonedinCA]

What problem do they face?

Poorer educational backgrounds due to public schools in socioeconomically disadvantaged areas that don't prepare them for college as well when compared to generally white, middle-class suburbs for start.

 

[wait!what?]

so many parms and still the writer selects one to weave the narrative. i know you get this....ryt?

 

[killme]

Am I missing something? Last year was 52 to 82 graduation rates and now its 54 to 90.

ETA: The media's responsibility isn't to please consumers. It's to report on what it believes to be facts and/or offer op-eds that try to inform the opinions of their reading/viewing area. Nowhere is a news papers main mission to adjust their behavior to conform to some readers wants/needs.

a) Yes, you seem to be missing something. Both numbers have improved under Kill, yet the strib has chosen to paint that improvement negatively.
b) Have you been living in a cave? Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but media -- whether it's print, radio, or TV -- are not governed by altruistic motives, for some noble cause. They are business, with a goal of making money. If the consumers don't like their product, they will go out of business.

 

[maroonedinCA]

a) Yes, you seem to be missing something. Both numbers have improved under Kill, yet the strib has chosen to paint that improvement negatively.
b) Have you been living in a cave? Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but media -- whether it's print, radio, or TV -- are not governed by altruistic motives, for some noble cause. They are business, with a goal of making money. If the consumers don't like their product, they will go out of business.

A). But I was right about the gap getting worse year over year, which is what has been pointed out somehow as being an evil doing by the STrib right in the reply you quoted to me.

B). You hit the nail on the head there. And guess what, just because the STrib doesn't jive with YOUR opinions doesn't mean they should change. Maybe, just maybe, they know more about who they're trying to sell papers to and apparently it's not you.

 

[killme]

A) & B)

I guess we'll see if they know what they're doing. Maybe there are enough negative, anti-Gophers like you, who enjoy taking the worst possible angle every time. I'm doing my part by boycotting the strib since the Souhan article. It's not much, I know, but I'm encouraging others to do the same. At least I'm doing something positive.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

So the gap widened, right? Am I missing something? Last year was 52 to 82 graduation rates and now its 54 to 90 (a difference of 36 instead of 30).

ETA: The media's responsibility isn't to please consumers. It's to report on what it believes to be facts and/or offer op-eds that try to inform the opinions of their reading/viewing area. Nowhere is a news papers main mission to adjust their behavior to conform to some readers wants/needs.

So, the number improved for the team on the whole. The number improved for the white students. The number improved for the black students. Seems like the opposite of a worsening problem to me. If both groups keep improving, the white number is near 100, so it can't go up forever, and the gap will close after that.

 

[TrapperDoo]

Same educational opportunities that most of us had - in fact maybe even more.

 

[Former Goofer]

Only in the STrib.

What's wrong about reporting facts?

 

[killme]

What's wrong about reporting facts?

Reporting the facts ALL the time would be a good start for the the Twin Cities media. Sadly, that is not the case far too often. But, more than that, a choice is made in reporting facts on how they are presented. There is a big difference in these two factual statements:
a) Miguel Cabrera failed to get a hit more than 65 percent of the time in 2013.
b) Cabrera led MLB with a .348 average, won his third straight batting title, and was named AL MVP.

I guess I really have trouble with keeping track of this statistic and tying graduation rates to coaches. Do we really believe some coaches encourage their players not to go to class? JK and his staff have made academics a priority and monitoring is part of their overall plan. But, paying for a kid to get an education should be enough. Unfortunately, it's not.

The difference between graduation rates of blacks and whites is not new and much has been written about this issue. The strib chose handle the issue with a superficial report that painted JK's efforts in a negative light. I strongly encourage all Gopher fans to boycott the strib in every way possible.

 

[maroonedinCA]

So, the number improved for the team on the whole. The number improved for the white students. The number improved for the black students. Seems like the opposite of a worsening problem to me. If both groups keep improving, the white number is near 100, so it can't go up forever, and the gap will close after that.

That's fair, but the article and report that was being discussed was about the gap between black and white players.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

That's fair, but the article and report that was being discussed was about the gap between black and white players.

Yes it was, and my objection is to focusing on the gap in isolation without deeper treatment of the context of both numbers. In general, I think focus on gaps is misplaced. We should focus on improving graduation rate. Period. If 46% of black players are not graduating, that is a problem for those 46%. It is the same problem that the 10% of white players not graduating are facing. Focusing on the gap suggests that the situation would be better if 46% of white players also did not graduate, because then we would have no gap. That is not the case. The problem is the same for those players. That problem is that they do not have a college degree. They would have the same absence of a degree if white players were graduating at a rate of 100% or 54% or 7%.

 

[dpodoll68]

Focusing on the gap suggests that the situation would be better if 46% of white players also did not graduate, because then we would have no gap.

Bingo. 100% nailed it. That is why this article is so inane, idiotic, and abhorrent to even write or discuss. As you've stated, the problem is not that whites graduate at a higher rate than blacks. The problem is that less than 100% of people graduate, regardless of skin color. Focus on that and write articles about that, not about race-baiting and blaming administrators for a made-up problem.

 

[killme]

Strib's headline unfairly implies the Gophers are negligent. I guess I have a bit of a problem, also, with The Institute for
Diversity and Ethics in Sports (TIDES), which published the report and it's timing. In choosing to release the results after the Bowl selections, TIDES unfairly implies the fault lies with those college football programs, perhaps that they put winning and getting to bowl games ahead of academic success. I'm chagrined that the accompanying charts do not include ALL schools, and also do not show the difference between athletes and the general student population.

Buried in the 5-page report is this paragraph:

"It must be emphasized that African American and white football players graduate at a higher rate than their male non athletic peers in the student body...The problem goes back to the academic preparation students get before they ever get to college."

TIDES leaves no room for doubt where the problem lies. Perhaps they should be part of the solution and address the problem where it began, for instance a study of K-12 academic standards and practices, instead of grandstanding after the damage is done. I'm not smart enough to figure it all out, and don't have all the answers, but my guess is the issue is more of a cultural problem than an academic one.

I couldn't find where TIDES gets its funding, but for my money the job of finding problems is an easy one. Coming up with solutions and practices to bring about positive "waves of change" would be a better use of their time, IMHO.

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2013_Bowl_study.pdf

 

[maroonedinCA]

Strib's headline unfairly implies the Gophers are negligent. I guess I have a bit of a problem, also, with The Institute for
Diversity and Ethics in Sports (TIDES), which published the report and it's timing. In choosing to release the results after the Bowl selections, TIDES unfairly implies the fault lies with those college football programs, perhaps that they put winning and getting to bowl games ahead of academic success. I'm chagrined that the accompanying charts do not include ALL schools, and also do not show the difference between athletes and the general student population.

Buried in the 5-page report is this paragraph:

"It must be emphasized that African American and white football players graduate at a higher rate than their male non athletic peers in the student body...The problem goes back to the academic preparation students get before they ever get to college."

TIDES leaves no room for doubt where the problem lies. Perhaps they should be part of the solution and address the problem where it began, for instance a study of K-12 academic standards and practices, instead of grandstanding after the damage is done. I'm not smart enough to figure it all out, and don't have all the answers, but my guess is the issue is more of a cultural problem than an academic one.

I couldn't find where TIDES gets its funding, but for my money the job of finding problems is an easy one. Coming up with solutions and practices to bring about positive "waves of change" would be a better use of their time, IMHO.

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2013_Bowl_study.pdf

I think we're starting to agree quite a bit and thank you for taking such a cordial tone. Seriously, it's nice having discussions like this.

I guess my main point is that I don't mind them pointing out a gap as it implies, all things being equal at the college level, black students are facing more of an uphill climb for a multitude of reasons. By all estimates, a 90% graduation rate for white players is FANTASTIC. Little can be done to bring that number up higher, the incremental benefits of additional programs just aren't there. However, if 46% of black students aren't graduating, maybe some help/funding/analysis can be thrown in that direction and would have monumental impact.

To lump the entire non-graduating group together could cloud the actual problem being faced by black student athletes and thus impede decision makers from making the necessary changes to really have the maximum impact.

Is any of this Jerry Kill's fault? I don't think so at all. But to ignore the fact that there is such a disparity is ignoring the issue. I don't think the STrib's handling of this is all that bad. They wrote an article on a legitimate problem being faced across ALL of college football and hopefully that inspires some changes.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I think we're starting to agree quite a bit and thank you for taking such a cordial tone. Seriously, it's nice having discussions like this.

To lump the entire non-graduating group together could cloud the actual problem being faced by black student athletes and thus impede decision makers from making the necessary changes to really have the maximum impact. .

Please define?

 

[maroonedinCA]

Please define?

A 54% graduation rate is the problem. The source of that problem is what needs clarification and is entirely the focus of my posts. Clearly there is an achievement gap between the white and black players. That's a problem.

 

[killme]

A 54% graduation rate is the problem. The source of that problem is what needs clarification and is entirely the focus of my posts. Clearly there is an achievement gap between the white and black players. That's a problem.

And, so is, in my opinion your continued support of the strib's negatively slanted portrayal of JK's leadership of the Gopher program. My last post outlined differences in motive. If raising awareness in hope of find a solution is the strib's goal, they failed miserably. Putting a bandaid on the issue by allocating more resources to affect intercollegiate athletic graduation rates is a foolish idea. The researchers themselves clearly believe the problem starts before college. I take exception to TIDES approach to the problem, which is to lob a softball to irresponsible media outlets like the strib.

 

[PartoPitinosPosse]

I refuse to support the strib and have held that stand for several years now. This article just reinforces my opinion of the strib. They should be ashamed for choosing to try to make a positive into a negative just for their financial gain, just to grab headlines.

Graduation rates IMPROVED!!!!

Hopefully someone writes a counter story highlighting the positives.

 

[TrapperDoo]

So, again, what is the source of the gap? How do you propose that we fix it? Who is responsible for fixing it? And, for the record, I hope all of the football players graduate with degrees and I believe that they are all capable of doing so. As we all know, it's tough, but it can be done.

 

[killme]

So, again, what is the source of the gap? How do you propose that we fix it? Who is responsible for fixing it? ... As we all know, it's tough, but it can be done.

I have a few suggestions, starting with tearing some things down before building from the ground up. Groups like TIDES think their efforts are helpful, but IMHO are wasted. They've identified the problem is not at the college level, suggesting that our K-12 schools are underpreparing kids for college. But, I think that is lazy. I'm old school. I think the problem with our schools is in the homes. The topic is race, so the effort needs to be dealt with in the black community, not so much the K-12. Sure our educational system is failing, but phew, our schools are a joke because our society has softened our focus, diluted the objectives, and devolved to an undisciplined, tolerant, politically correct fiasco. Encourage and reward hard work instead of spending so much of our time and resources on helping along those that aren't helping themselves. The resources for learning in our society are vast. Tutors. Online tools. But, the bottom line, I suppose is that black parents need to start taking some ownership of this problem and demanding their kids improve.

 

[50PoundHead]

I hesitate to weigh in again, because from the posts, it looks like it's difficult to find the middle and that's where I like to live.

TrapperDoo, my guess is Kill has already implemented a bunch of things that will improve graduation rates for all team members. When Kill got here, Hageman was almost ineligible. Now, at least according to Marcus Fuller, he's on pace to graduate this month. Kill has instituted a get-tough policy on class and study hall attendance that includes consequences for screwing off and the kids are responding.

To your point on cause, I think Dr. Richard Lapchick (the son of pro basketball pioneer and former St. John's (NY) University basketball coach Joe Lapchick) summed it up succinctly in his comments from the article. A lot of minority kids come from really lousy high schools and that is complicated by the fact that graduating from high school and being ready for college are two entirely different things. A lot of these kids can get through the introductory courses, but really hit a wall as they move into upper division courses, both in their majors and with electives and you need those courses to graduate. Some of this is clearly conjecture on my part and I guess this problem exists for both minority and non-minority students both inside and outside the athletic program. I don't think it means minority kids are any less able to graduate than non-minority kids, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that some of them may need more intensive tutoring than the average student. We've learned some hard lessons on how this can be done wrong (Luther Darville, Jan Gangelhoff) that serve as a "what not to do" approach. I think the resources are there to help kids find a major that suits their interests and abilities and stay within NCAA regulations.

The responsibility for improvement is a joint effort between the athletic and the academic arms of the university. The football coaches recruit these kids and education is part of the agreement, so I don't see how they can be absolved of all responsibility in helping these kids make it academically. Add to that the fact the APR is monitored now (and that is a relatively recent development) and the link between the kids who are recruited and how they are doing academically matters and the coaches play a pretty big role in that equation as they are the ones offering scholarships. Again, this isn't a criticism of Kill because I don't think there is any question he takes this stuff very seriously.

The whole "dumb jock" thing (as much a white kid problem when I was growing up as a minority issue) has been around for years. I knew a few Gopher players in the 1970s and a bunch of them simply left school after their senior year of eligibility was used up, degree or not. Of course, back then, you could get a pretty decent job without a degree and a lot of these guys did just that. It's not that these guys were dumb, it's just that they didn't see the value in sticking around to get a degree they weren't going to use. It's a much more competitive world now and the degree is needed more often than not. And the kids are crazy not to take advantage of it. It's just that sometimes they don't.

For the record, the organization that put out the report is run by the aforementioned Dr. Lapchick and it is housed at the University of Central Florida. My guess is they raise money through grants and likely get some support from UCF. I thought the report made pretty good reading. What doesn't come through from the news report is the sad state of a number of programs. USC graduates only 53% of its football players (only 48% of its African-American players). Just another reason to love Lane Kiffin. I suppose some of that stems from kids leaving early for the pros, but still a pretty poor indicator of academic performance at an otherwise exemplary academic institution. Michigan is another school with solid academics that also has a low overall football team graduation rate at 66% (only 50% of its African-American players). Gophers are at 75% (with the 90%/54% split).

Like with most everything else, I trust Kill will keep things on the upward swing. He knows what he's doing.

Hope that answers your questions. I think the article is incomplete, but I don't see it as a hatchet job either. It clearly credits Kill with being an agent of academic progress and points out an issue of which he is probably well aware.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Judging by the numbers, I'm assuming it means many players are probably leaving school with just a semester or two left. Why would you not stick around and just finish? I could understand it a little more at schools that produce a lot of players who leave after three years to go to the NFL. That certainly isn't the case for a program like the MN.

 

[50PoundHead]

Judging by the numbers, I'm assuming it means many players are probably leaving school with just a semester or two left. Why would you not stick around and just finish? I could understand it a little more at schools that produce a lot of players who leave after three years to go to the NFL. That certainly isn't the case for a program like the MN.

I think that plays into it (especially at places like USC) and I totally agree with you. If you've come that far, stay the extra quarter and finish.

I may have missed it in the report, but I wonder if this is only scholarship athletes or all members of the team. If it's just players on scholarship and you take an average of 21.25 players per class (85/4), if one guy per class doesn't graduate, that's 4+ percentage points. Again, the current numbers are probably suffering from the considerable attrition of players under Brewster. I'm not going to blame society or anything. There are challenges and Kill strikes me as someone who is concerned about things like this and if Rutgers can graduate 85% of it's African-American players, I think we can as well.

 

[maroonedinCA]

I hesitate to weigh in again, because from the posts, it looks like it's difficult to find the middle and that's where I like to live.

TrapperDoo, my guess is Kill has already implemented a bunch of things that will improve graduation rates for all team members. When Kill got here, Hageman was almost ineligible. Now, at least according to Marcus Fuller, he's on pace to graduate this month. Kill has instituted a get-tough policy on class and study hall attendance that includes consequences for screwing off and the kids are responding.

To your point on cause, I think Dr. Richard Lapchick (the son of pro basketball pioneer and former St. John's (NY) University basketball coach Joe Lapchick) summed it up succinctly in his comments from the article. A lot of minority kids come from really lousy high schools and that is complicated by the fact that graduating from high school and being ready for college are two entirely different things. A lot of these kids can get through the introductory courses, but really hit a wall as they move into upper division courses, both in their majors and with electives and you need those courses to graduate. Some of this is clearly conjecture on my part and I guess this problem exists for both minority and non-minority students both inside and outside the athletic program. I don't think it means minority kids are any less able to graduate than non-minority kids, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that some of them may need more intensive tutoring than the average student. We've learned some hard lessons on how this can be done wrong (Luther Darville, Jan Gangelhoff) that serve as a "what not to do" approach. I think the resources are there to help kids find a major that suits their interests and abilities and stay within NCAA regulations.

The responsibility for improvement is a joint effort between the athletic and the academic arms of the university. The football coaches recruit these kids and education is part of the agreement, so I don't see how they can be absolved of all responsibility in helping these kids make it academically. Add to that the fact the APR is monitored now (and that is a relatively recent development) and the link between the kids who are recruited and how they are doing academically matters and the coaches play a pretty big role in that equation as they are the ones offering scholarships. Again, this isn't a criticism of Kill because I don't think there is any question he takes this stuff very seriously.

The whole "dumb jock" thing (as much a white kid problem when I was growing up as a minority issue) has been around for years. I knew a few Gopher players in the 1970s and a bunch of them simply left school after their senior year of eligibility was used up, degree or not. Of course, back then, you could get a pretty decent job without a degree and a lot of these guys did just that. It's not that these guys were dumb, it's just that they didn't see the value in sticking around to get a degree they weren't going to use. It's a much more competitive world now and the degree is needed more often than not. And the kids are crazy not to take advantage of it. It's just that sometimes they don't.

For the record, the organization that put out the report is run by the aforementioned Dr. Lapchick and it is housed at the University of Central Florida. My guess is they raise money through grants and likely get some support from UCF. I thought the report made pretty good reading. What doesn't come through from the news report is the sad state of a number of programs. USC graduates only 53% of its football players (only 48% of its African-American players). Just another reason to love Lane Kiffin. I suppose some of that stems from kids leaving early for the pros, but still a pretty poor indicator of academic performance at an otherwise exemplary academic institution. Michigan is another school with solid academics that also has a low overall football team graduation rate at 66% (only 50% of its African-American players). Gophers are at 75% (with the 90%/54% split).

Like with most everything else, I trust Kill will keep things on the upward swing. He knows what he's doing.

Hope that answers your questions. I think the article is incomplete, but I don't see it as a hatchet job either. It clearly credits Kill with being an agent of academic progress and points out an issue of which he is probably well aware.

This is a fantastic post and really hits on everything.

Many are pointing out that the real problem is that they come from crappy high schools so that's where the fix needs to be placed. I agree, long term, that's exactly right. But, we do recruit them to our university and we owe them something to get them caught up if they come to play football for our entertainment and to make the university money.

I never meant to insinuate that the U or Coach Kill are to blame in the least bit. But, if Minnesota recruits these players the university should do everything in their power to help these kids from underprivileged backgrounds succeed. I am definitely not saying we need to recruit higher quality kids, I think we are recruiting high quality kids, but we should do more to ensure that any academic problems they had in the past are overcome and they exit the university better, more well rounded young men.

 

[nsmike]

The reason the coaches spend so much time checking on the background of potential recruits is to make sure the have the work ethic and discipline to make it work. I personally would have flunked out if I had gone to the U out of HS. A stint in the Army made me disciplined enough to graduate from Carlson. Poor preparation can be overcome by hard work and discipline, Jerry Kill only has two classes that are really his, the true impact of his methods are yet to be seen.