Gophers lead Big Ten in fewest true freshmen playing

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John Galt said:
The youth statement can be viewed from several different angles depending on what you want to prove. On Saturday, we started 1 senior on offense (Garrison Wright, a JUCO no less) and 3 on defense (Richardson, Celestin, Ayinde). 4 seniors out of 22 doesn't ring tons of experience in my book....
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See post #29.
 

Quote Originally Posted by Iceland12:

Just a thought, but 3. unless you made the same objection and demanded that "better data" on all the threads whining about how the Gophers were the youngest team in the Big Ten, or maybe even in the history of football (), you have no grounds to criticize a simple statement of facts now.

Panthadad2 said:
1) Who said the Gophers are the "youngest" team? Not the coach (as far as I know). He said they are young this year and will be younger next year. It's all relative.
2) The original post throws out the hard numbers of freshmen that "participated" which doesn't necessarily translate to "young" as the post title implies. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. The data presented doesn't prove it. Someone else posted in another thread the number of true freshman in the 2-deeps. That's getting closer to the "young" description.
3) I haven't "whined" about this subject nor argued about it until now. I just don't like misleading stats being used to prove a point...especially a negative trolling point about my (admittedly) favorite team. I fully understand and support Fleck's goal of having a team heavily comprised of 21-22 year-old redshirt players beating up on younger 18-20 year-old players (I believe Kill/Claeys had the same goal). It's a good plan.
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1. The o.p. simply stated the numbers of Freshman who had played for Big Ten teams this year. How is that trolling in any sense of the term. Someone should go and see how many of those "2 deep players" have actually played for all the Big Ten teams.

3. Good for you. Odd that all whining about "but we need more data" never showed-up in the threads about how young the Gophers were.

Too me, the Gophers seem quite young. Something every damn coach since Wacker has said one time or another. Kill and Fleck went to that well the most often.

The numbers were surprising, given what all the sycophants have been saying. Ironically enough not what Fleck himself has been saying. Sure he's talked about how young they are, but he's said on more than one occasion that he'll pull a redshirt and play a Freshman "if necessary".

Which it apparently has been. He's stayed true to his word about his reluctance and the numbers in the original post back him up

Odd that the numbers that show that he's sticking to his gun has brought out claims of false information, trolling and bad data.
 

Panthadad2 said:
Sure, but the counterpoint to this thread is that the original poster is throwing out potentially skewed stats showing the number of true freshman that have played regardless of minutes or contribution. The original post cherry picks data. A more valid argument would provide a list of true freshmen by team that have significant playing time (e.g. starters) as someone else already mentioned on this thread. Without better data, there are no grounds to criticize the coach’s comments other than…well, just looking for a reason to criticize.
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You've perfectly described every Swingman post. Well done.
 

Basically what I am getting out of this is that the Gophers are pretty much "average" in terms of age. Depending on how you want to parse the stats you can make us look younger or older, but we are essentially just like most Big Ten teams in terms of age.

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I just want ONE impact freshman. Someone who comes in and makes a difference.

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TruDat said:
I just want ONE impact freshman. Someone who comes in and makes a difference.

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I'm in agreement with this sentiment. For sure a team with as many holes as this team I would for sure expect at least one or two true freshman to make an impact. Now Douglas could have been that guy but it doesn't look like anyone else.
 

John Galt said:
The youth statement can be viewed from several different angles depending on what you want to prove. On Saturday, we started 1 senior on offense (Garrison Wright, a JUCO no less) and 3 on defense (Richardson, Celestin, Ayinde). 4 seniors out of 22 doesn't ring tons of experience in my book....
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Actually, it was twice that many.

Eric Carter and Wozniak are seniors.

Duke McGhee is a senior.

Santoso is a senior.

That's 8 seniors out of the 24 key starters.

The team MVP was Kobe, a senior.

Weyler, Greene, Moore, Huff, Rodney Smith, Carpenter are all juniors.

So 14 of 24 starters were juniors or seniors.

For comparison, Iowa will start 7 seniors, 8 juniors...so 15 of 24 starters juniors or seniors.

https://www.landof10.com/iowa/iowa-...returns-depth-chart-not-safety-brandon-snyder

http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2017-2018/17game07.html#GAME.PRE
 

I slapped this list together that ranks teams by college-year-age based on 1-deep starting rosters on offense and defense (e.g. RS senior = 5.0, true freshman = 1.0). MN is very young by this measure and doesn't coincide with the original post. Just more to chew on. BTW, there is very little correlation here with winning record this year. Data per http://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/depth-chart/minnesota/91188 I assumed Croft starts over Rhoda.

Team Off Def Total
Maryland 3.6 4.2 3.9
Northwest 3.6 3.8 3.7
Wisconsin 3.4 4.1 3.7
Rutgers 3.7 3.6 3.7
Penn St 3.4 3.9 3.6
Purdue 3.5 3.8 3.6
Indiana 3.2 4.0 3.6
Ohio St 3.6 3.5 3.6
Iowa 3.3 3.9 3.6
Nebraska 3.4 3.3 3.3
Minnesota 3.4 2.5 2.9
Mich St 2.8 2.8 2.8
Michigan 2.9 2.7 2.8
Illinois 2.3 3.0 2.7
 

Panthadad2 said:
I slapped this list together that ranks teams by college-year-age based on 1-deep starting rosters on offense and defense (e.g. RS senior = 5.0, true freshman = 1.0). MN is very young by this measure and doesn't coincide with the original post. Just more to chew on. BTW, there is very little correlation here with winning record this year. Data per http://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/depth-chart/minnesota/91188 I assumed Croft starts over Rhoda.

Team Off Def Total
Maryland 3.6 4.2 3.9
Northwest 3.6 3.8 3.7
Wisconsin 3.4 4.1 3.7
Rutgers 3.7 3.6 3.7
Penn St 3.4 3.9 3.6
Purdue 3.5 3.8 3.6
Indiana 3.2 4.0 3.6
Ohio St 3.6 3.5 3.6
Iowa 3.3 3.9 3.6
Nebraska 3.4 3.3 3.3
Minnesota 3.4 2.5 2.9
Mich St 2.8 2.8 2.8
Michigan 2.9 2.7 2.8
Illinois 2.3 3.0 2.7
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Interesting...

What did you assign a rs frosh, rs soph, rs junior? 2,3, and 4? Or 1,2, and 3?

Do you add them up and divide by 11?
 



swingman said:
Actually, it was twice that many.

Eric Carter and Wozniak are seniors.

Duke McGhee is a senior.

Santoso is a senior.

That's 8 seniors out of the 24 key starters.

The team MVP was Kobe, a senior.

Weyler, Greene, Moore, Huff, Rodney Smith, Carpenter are all juniors.

So 14 of 24 starters were juniors or seniors.

For comparison, Iowa will start 7 seniors, 8 juniors...so 15 of 24 starters juniors or seniors.

https://www.landof10.com/iowa/iowa-...returns-depth-chart-not-safety-brandon-snyder

http://www.gophersports.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2017-2018/17game07.html#GAME.PRE
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I don’t remember Wozniak playing on Saturday, I think that’s why we saw Ko Kieft. Eric Carter is technically a senior. But that probably discredits your point as he is worse than 2 of our freshman wideouts.

Duke wasn’t listed on the depth chart. I know he played, but don’t remember if he started. McCrary definitely did not. We also have some juniors. Congratulations for playing.
 

Panthadad2 said:
I slapped this list together that ranks teams by college-year-age based on 1-deep starting rosters on offense and defense (e.g. RS senior = 5.0, true freshman = 1.0). MN is very young by this measure and doesn't coincide with the original post. Just more to chew on. BTW, there is very little correlation here with winning record this year. Data per http://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/depth-chart/minnesota/91188 I assumed Croft starts over Rhoda.

Team Off Def Total
Maryland 3.6 4.2 3.9
Northwest 3.6 3.8 3.7
Wisconsin 3.4 4.1 3.7
Rutgers 3.7 3.6 3.7
Penn St 3.4 3.9 3.6
Purdue 3.5 3.8 3.6
Indiana 3.2 4.0 3.6
Ohio St 3.6 3.5 3.6
Iowa 3.3 3.9 3.6
Nebraska 3.4 3.3 3.3
Minnesota 3.4 2.5 2.9
Mich St 2.8 2.8 2.8
Michigan 2.9 2.7 2.8
Illinois 2.3 3.0 2.7
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Do you include any special teams?

For teams that list 12 positions (like 2 tight ends and two packs and two WRs) instead of 11, what did you do?
 

swingman said:
Interesting...

What did you assign a rs frosh, rs soph, rs junior? 2,3, and 4? Or 1,2, and 3?

Do you add them up and divide by 11?
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RS freshman = 2.0, RS senior = 5.0. I took a straight average of each offense and defense per the website then averaged the two for the total. I don't guarantee accuracy :) Overall, these are just stats. Young impact players mean a hell of a lot more to success than older non-impact players (e.g. MN offense)...
 

Panthadad2 said:
I slapped this list together that ranks teams by college-year-age based on 1-deep starting rosters on offense and defense (e.g. RS senior = 5.0, true freshman = 1.0). MN is very young by this measure and doesn't coincide with the original post. Just more to chew on. BTW, there is very little correlation here with winning record this year. Data per http://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/depth-chart/minnesota/91188 I assumed Croft starts over Rhoda.

Team Off Def Total
Maryland 3.6 4.2 3.9
Northwest 3.6 3.8 3.7
Wisconsin 3.4 4.1 3.7
Rutgers 3.7 3.6 3.7
Penn St 3.4 3.9 3.6
Purdue 3.5 3.8 3.6
Indiana 3.2 4.0 3.6
Ohio St 3.6 3.5 3.6
Iowa 3.3 3.9 3.6
Nebraska 3.4 3.3 3.3
Minnesota 3.4 2.5 2.9
Mich St 2.8 2.8 2.8
Michigan 2.9 2.7 2.8
Illinois 2.3 3.0 2.7
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Since you changed Croft for Rhoda, did you also mix in Ayinde and McGhee and Huff and Estes for Holly, Winfield, Durr and Shenault?
 



John Galt said:
I don’t remember Wozniak playing on Saturday, I think that’s why we saw Ko Kieft. <b>Eric Carter is technically a senior. But that probably discredits your point as he is worse than 2 of our freshman wideouts.</b>

Duke wasn’t listed on the depth chart. I know he played, but don’t remember if he started. McCrary definitely did not. We also have some juniors. Congratulations for playing.
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The bolded is just funny. Someone's point most definitely was discredited.


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swingman said:
Do you include any special teams?

For teams that list 12 positions (like 2 tight ends and two packs and two WRs) instead of 11, what did you do?
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No special teams (that could skew things). I took a straight average for both offense and defense because some rosters include 12 as you state and I'm too lazy to do the research to decide who to exclude.
 

Let’s keep playing and use my favorite metric - draftable seniors. I’ll even include juniors for fun.

We are now 7 games into the season and have a pretty good idea of who is good and who isn’t.

What seniors on this roster get drafted in May? I’ll predict 1 - Steve Richardson. Celestin has a shot. Maybe Duke as well.

What juniors will get drafted a year and a half from now? Maybe Rodney. Possibly Shannon if he ever gets healthy.

That’s a pretty short list for 2 classes. And a big reason this year has been a disappointment so far.
 

Spoofin said:
The bolded is just funny. Someone's point most definitely was discredited.


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Carter has 3 catches in 7 games. Not exactly the stuff of greatness. Or a strong argument that we are experienced.
 

John Galt said:
Let’s keep playing and use my favorite metric - draftable seniors. I’ll even include juniors for fun.

We are now 7 games into the season and have a pretty good idea of who is good and who isn’t.

What seniors on this roster get drafted in May? I’ll predict 1 - Steve Richardson. Celestin has a shot. Maybe Duke as well.

What juniors will get drafted a year and a half from now? Maybe Rodney. Possibly Shannon if he ever gets healthy.

That’s a pretty short list for 2 classes. And a big reason this year has been a disappointment so far.
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2 NFL players per year was probably about Jerry Kill's average. I think he has 7 Gophers on current NFL rosters plus a handful of others that made final rosters briefly then dropped out.
 

John Galt said:
Carter has 3 catches in 7 games. Not exactly the stuff of greatness. Or a strong argument that we are experienced.
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Too bad your post/argument was about Seniors who started and not about experience of starters or how good said starters are.
"Carter is <I>technically</I> a senior". Priceless.


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John Galt said:
Let’s keep playing and use my favorite metric - draftable seniors. I’ll even include juniors for fun.

We are now 7 games into the season and have a pretty good idea of who is good and who isn’t.

What seniors on this roster get drafted in May? I’ll predict 1 - Steve Richardson. Celestin has a shot. Maybe Duke as well.

What juniors will get drafted a year and a half from now? Maybe Rodney. Possibly Shannon if he ever gets healthy.

That’s a pretty short list for 2 classes. And a big reason this year has been a disappointment so far.
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Sadly I'll predict zero from both classes. Celestin might have the best shot. Richardson is just too short. A few of them will be UDFA though.
 

Spoofin said:
Too bad your post/argument was about Seniors who started and not about experience of starters or how good said starters are.
"Carter is <I>technically</I> a senior". Priceless.


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I thought you’d like that one. Just making sure that you’re paying attention.
 


John Galt said:
Let’s keep playing and use my favorite metric - draftable seniors. I’ll even include juniors for fun.

We are now 7 games into the season and have a pretty good idea of who is good and who isn’t.

What seniors on this roster get drafted in May? I’ll predict 1 - Steve Richardson. Celestin has a shot. Maybe Duke as well.

What juniors will get drafted a year and a half from now? Maybe Rodney. Possibly Shannon if he ever gets healthy.

That’s a pretty short list for 2 classes. And a big reason this year has been a disappointment so far.
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I was told Fleck inherited WAY more nfl level talent, than Kill did. We have like 8 nfl caliber guys on the roster, including both kickers and rbs, I was told.
 

This is very encouraging. I believe his is building something special. Allowing his first recruiting class to grow, mature and learn off the field will pay dividends when they are the ‘mature upper class men’ piece of winning teams in the future when more talented recruiting classes arrive in the next few years.
He has a plan and is working it. IAATRB
 

John Galt said:
Let’s keep playing and use my favorite metric - draftable seniors. I’ll even include juniors for fun.

We are now 7 games into the season and have a pretty good idea of who is good and who isn’t.

What seniors on this roster get drafted in May? I’ll predict 1 - Steve Richardson. Celestin has a shot. Maybe Duke as well.

What juniors will get drafted a year and a half from now? Maybe Rodney. Possibly Shannon if he ever gets healthy.

That’s a pretty short list for 2 classes. And a big reason this year has been a disappointment so far.
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Again, I'm confused why you keep changing the topic of this thread. The thread was meant to discuss the low number of Freshmen playing which seems relevant considering our coach says young more than HYPRR now-a-days. Why you keep discussing experience and now draftable Seniors (IALTO) in defense is baffling to me.


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Spoofin said:
Again, I'm confused why you keep changing the topic of this thread. The thread was meant to discuss the low number of Freshmen playing which seems relevant considering our coach says young more than HYPRR now-a-days. Why you keep discussing experience and now draftable Seniors (IALTO) in defense is baffling to me.


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I thought you stopped listening to the coach? Yet you complain about what he says in every thread
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I thought you stopped listening to the coach? Yet you complain about what he says in every thread
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I did. Weeks ago. When he talks out loud I turn the channel. However, in case you haven't noticed, I spend some time on GH where some of the things he says are mentioned. Think of it like this: I get 1 RTB to every 5 you get.


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GopherWeatherGuy said:
I thought you stopped listening to the coach? Yet you complain about what he says in every thread
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Yes, but he still supports PJ. Not sure if it's still with every fiber of his body. I miss those daily pronouncements but he's busy fact-checking PJ because we all need someone to parse the information and hold PJ's feet to the fire.
 

Mulligan said:
Yes, but he still supports PJ. Not sure if it's still with every fiber of his body. I miss those daily pronouncements but he's busy fact-checking PJ because we all need someone to parse the information and hold PJ's feet to the fire.
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Yes Mully, as you point out over and over it really bugs you that I am OK with PJ being our coach, yet don't like him or his style. That I think he can be successful here, likely more so than TC could of, but can't stand all the mumbo jumbo he spews. That I think he was a good hire and want him to succeed yet see right thru his Shtick. What I don't get is why you feel I have to like PJ in order to support him. I don't. I do.


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Panthadad2 said:
I slapped this list together that ranks teams by college-year-age based on 1-deep starting rosters on offense and defense (e.g. RS senior = 5.0, true freshman = 1.0). MN is very young by this measure and doesn't coincide with the original post. Just more to chew on. BTW, there is very little correlation here with winning record this year. Data per http://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-depth-charts/depth-chart/minnesota/91188 I assumed Croft starts over Rhoda.

Team Off Def Total
Maryland 3.6 4.2 3.9
Northwest 3.6 3.8 3.7
Wisconsin 3.4 4.1 3.7
Rutgers 3.7 3.6 3.7
Penn St 3.4 3.9 3.6
Purdue 3.5 3.8 3.6
Indiana 3.2 4.0 3.6
Ohio St 3.6 3.5 3.6
Iowa 3.3 3.9 3.6
Nebraska 3.4 3.3 3.3
Minnesota 3.4 2.5 2.9
Mich St 2.8 2.8 2.8
Michigan 2.9 2.7 2.8
Illinois 2.3 3.0 2.7
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Maryland with all that talent AND age.
 

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