Will "Back Against the Wall" Pitino, pull a Rabbit out of his hat?

GopherBlood666

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I can respect that to a degree, or even saving it for dedicated threads. Again though, case in point. The fact that is has permeated all of the threads has to make you think maybe there's something to it, yeah?
I'm not defending Pitino, if he does not get it done he should be gone and probably should have been after this season if the right coach were available. I also enjoy the players he has brought in the last 4-5 seasons and like watching them play. If you want to point out specific instances from game to game as they are played where you think he failed as a coach, that is cool too. Just pull the pitchforks out at the end of the season so we can talk straight basketball up until then.
 

short ornery norwegian

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One thought - assuming Carr returns, his minutes MUST be lower this year. Pitino simply cannot keep running Carr into the ground by playing him 38 minutes (or more) every game.

Pitino is the head coach and in charge of the roster. It's his job to have a backup PG who won't sh*t his pants while playing at least 5-8 minutes a game.

While Robbins getting a waiver is probably the #1 issue for the team (at least in my mind), getting Carr some rest during games may be issue #2.

You cannot have your PG gasping for breath in the final minutes when the game is on the line.
 

Gopher Teeth

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If - and I repeat If - Pitino is embracing the transfer route, it's going to make things even more of a high-wire act.

Transfers certainly represent an opportunity to bring experienced talent into the program, and fill gaps in the high school recruiting process.

But, it also means that you're operating on a year-to-year basis, because the roster is undergoing almost constant turnover.

In a perfect world, I would rather see the team based on recruiting HS players who are going to stick around for 3 or 4 years.

But, I'm afraid that what we're looking at is more like this year- biting your nails and waiting out the spring transfer window to see if they can land an impact player who can step right in and play. Or whether the success of the team is dependent on the NCAA granting a waiver - the last thing in the world you want to count on.
Limiting yourself to recruiting for 3 or 4 year players, means avoiding NBA talented players, should Pitino not recruit the Amir's and Oturo's in the future? Recruiting players that will go to the NBA early is going to put you in roster situations where you need transfers.

In addition there is a shift in the game, where transfers are going to be a bigger factor going forward, as in a lot more of it happening. A lot of those transfers being impact players. Pitino seems to be very good at recruiting in that type of situation, which means the future state of the game is lining up to his strengths. I get that it is stressful, but if you are putting talent on the floor than I don't care how they are coming in, and limiting yourself is not a good approach. Its not like they aren't recruiting HS kids, its just that kids are unpredictable, you may get them you may not, but boy its a good skill to be able to then go out and get transfers to shore up the gaps.
 

gophereric30

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One thought - assuming Carr returns, his minutes MUST be lower this year. Pitino simply cannot keep running Carr into the ground by playing him 38 minutes (or more) every game.

Pitino is the head coach and in charge of the roster. It's his job to have a backup PG who won't sh*t his pants while playing at least 5-8 minutes a game.

While Robbins getting a waiver is probably the #1 issue for the team (at least in my mind), getting Carr some rest during games may be issue #2.

You cannot have your PG gasping for breath in the final minutes when the game is on the line.
I'm pretty sure Pitino learned his lesson and understands what happened last year. I wouldnt worry.
 

Parcival

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One thought - assuming Carr returns, his minutes MUST be lower this year. Pitino simply cannot keep running Carr into the ground by playing him 38 minutes (or more) every game.

Pitino is the head coach and in charge of the roster. It's his job to have a backup PG who won't sh*t his pants while playing at least 5-8 minutes a game.

While Robbins getting a waiver is probably the #1 issue for the team (at least in my mind), getting Carr some rest during games may be issue #2.

You cannot have your PG gasping for breath in the final minutes when the game is on the line.
Pitino had no choice but to play Carr 38 minutes a game - we had no bench and Greenlee was so inept he couldn't take Carr out for more than a couple minutes. Now we have Mashburn Jr. and Gach who can both play minutes at PG so it's already looking much better than last season. I fully expect Carr to still average at least 30 minutes a game and maybe more depending on how well Mash plays.
 

John Galt

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For all you "The Sky is Falling" or "Pitino Needs to Go" posters who are predicting certain doom, I would like to point out just a few things.

1. Marcus Carr - This young man is quite possibly the best PG we have had since 1997? His assist to turnover ratio is tremendous and he doesn't have penchant for choking in the tight spots. He does what he needs to and gets the ball to his teammates who are best suited to score.

2. Gabe Kalesheur - A three year starter from the home state who endured a bad shooting year. He still played solid defense and I believe will benefit from not having to be the primary (or only) outside shooting threat. Look for this young man to come back and contribute more effectively and make people pay when he's open!

3. Both Gach - Although his name sounds like two people vomiting in the tunnel, this young man from Austin will give us an idea of what we all thought we were going to see last year with Coffey playing the wing next to Carr and Gabe. A better shooter than Coffey, he should show us what was missing last year from what we all thought was going to be a near dream lineup. SO WHY ISN'T IT A DREAM LINEUP NOW??? I can't for the life of me tell you why it shouldn't be.

4. Johnson - A Rebounding force who knows how to score when plays aren't called for him. Sounds like a perfect blend to go with the three individuals listed prior to him. This guy sounds like a ball player who does what is needed and makes plays that are necessary to win. A little John Thomas or Old Man Coffey could never hurt a team and would be welcome any time!

5. Robbins - Defensive presence in the middle. Let me remind you of what the last defensive center did for the Gophers in his first year, Reggie Lynch led the league in blocks and helped raise the Gopher defense from the pits of ineptitude to what fourth place in the league! His absence the next year caused them to completely crater. Robbins could have a similar impact with his defensive presence. It's not that hard to project.

6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Ihnen, Mashburn, Williams, Curry, Mitchell - These guys are not your average Gopher bench fodder. Last year, Ihnen and Williams probably should have been starting and I'm not sure they won't push the starters for time as it is now! No way Ihnen and Williams should see less than 10-15 minutes per game! Mashburn, half of you guys were projecting as a starter! Hopefully you were right and he gets his time. Mitchell is a skilled 4 star recruit and I have him buried 9 deep on a Gopher depth chart and you guys are predicting a 12th place finish? Let me repeat that so it sinks in.
Our Gophers, have a four star recruit buried behind nine other guys on the depth chart and you are predicting we finish 12th in the league?

Well, I'm fresh out of points, but I think I've made mine.

There are more reasons for optimism for the upcoming season than there has been for a long, long time. No matter who is making the x's and o's.

Go Gophers!
Nice post Otis - you even got me excited.

This years team will have more talent top to bottom. I think chemistry will be an issue as we have so many guys that have never played t
Pitino had no choice but to play Carr 38 minutes a game - we had no bench and Greenlee was so inept he couldn't take Carr out for more than a couple minutes. Now we have Mashburn Jr. and Gach who can both play minutes at PG so it's already looking much better than last season. I fully expect Carr to still average at least 30 minutes a game and maybe more depending on how well Mash plays.
We had people at this time last year saying Greenlee could provide some minutes as a backup PG. I’ll believe it when I see it.
 

Parcival

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Nice post Otis - you even got me excited.

This years team will have more talent top to bottom. I think chemistry will be an issue as we have so many guys that have never played t

We had people at this time last year saying Greenlee could provide some minutes as a backup PG. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Mashburn Jr. and Both Gach are not Greenlee. It’s not exactly hard to see... just watch some film and it’s obvious.

I don’t remember anybody being excited about Greenlee - we were all concerned that he was a late signing by Pitino who had virtually no P5 offers of any kind. You comparing him to Mashburn Jr. is just weird.
 

John Galt

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Mashburn Jr. and Both Gach are not Greenlee. It’s not exactly hard to see... just watch some film and it’s obvious.

I don’t remember anybody being excited about Greenlee - we were all concerned that he was a late signing by Pitino who had virtually no P5 offers of any kind. You comparing him to Mashburn Jr. is just weird.
Gach and Mashburn have played PG? At the P5 level?
 

Parcival

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Gach and Mashburn have played PG? At the P5 level?
So you're saying the 4* recruit of an NBA player with offers from Auburn, Florida, Ohio St., Notre Dame, Uconn, FSU, California, GTown, and Miami can't give us 10 minutes a game at PG? You're sounding more and more like a complete clown.

Gach averaged over 30 MPG at SG last season for Utah. At the P5 level. So yes, he can handle the ball as well.
 

alchemy2u

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Because teams with actual good coaches have problems with posters taking over all the threads with recommendations to fire the coach?
Just go ahead and check out the threads of other middle of the pack P5 team and you will typically find a group calling for the coaches head. And how many of those teams do the fans actually think that they have a good coach? I get it, some have had enough of Pitino. I felt he same way with Woog, Lucia, Clays, Mason, Brewster, Tubby, Monson, etc.. I still think Pitino has potential and this year's recruiting is very good. Of course, I understand that he has missed on some local kids, but I feel there is a local bias against the U.
 

alchemy2u

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So you're saying the 4* recruit of an NBA player with offers from Auburn, Florida, Ohio St., Notre Dame, Uconn, FSU, California, GTown, and Miami can't give us 10 minutes a game at PG? You're sounding more and more like a complete clown.

Gach averaged over 30 MPG at SG last season for Utah. At the P5 level. So yes, he can handle the ball as well.
Some posters are just begging for you to put them on ignore. Give it a try, it filters out some of the troll speak.
 

builtbadgers

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Just go ahead and check out the threads of other middle of the pack P5 team and you will typically find a group calling for the coaches head. And how many of those teams do the fans actually think that they have a good coach? I get it, some have had enough of Pitino. I felt he same way with Woog, Lucia, Clays, Mason, Brewster, Tubby, Monson, etc.. I still think Pitino has potential and this year's recruiting is very good. Of course, I understand that he has missed on some local kids, but I feel there is a local bias against the U.
Looks to me like we have been worse than middle of the pack. We are way below .500. The guys that are cleared will help out. Having Mashburn as a versatile combo helps, same with Gach.Time will reveal if that is great or good. If they all are clear, counting the Carr return then there are zero excuses to not be top 4.
 
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John Galt

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So you're saying the 4* recruit of an NBA player with offers from Auburn, Florida, Ohio St., Notre Dame, Uconn, FSU, California, GTown, and Miami can't give us 10 minutes a game at PG? You're sounding more and more like a complete clown.

Gach averaged over 30 MPG at SG last season for Utah. At the P5 level. So yes, he can handle the ball as well.
Neither guy is a true PG - that’s the issue. We’ll see if either one is serviceable or if it’s bad as it was last year.
 

builtbadgers

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Neither guy is a true PG - that’s the issue. We’ll see if either one is serviceable or if it’s bad as it was last year.
It will be quite a bit better than last year as long as Carr comes back. I could care less if they are not true point guards because you can rest Carr while he plays by having possessions where others bring the ball up. It also provides a great deal of versatility in the way you spread the floor.
 
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matt

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For now, this assumes Gach gets a waiver, Robbins doesn’t (though I think because of COVID it’s slightly better than 50-50), and Carr returns. Gophers up one spot from my last projection.

~ where would you put the Gophers if the Robbins waiver gets approved as well?
 

John Galt

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It will be quite a bit better than last year as long as Carr comes back. I could care less if they are not true point guards because you can rest Carr while he plays by having possessions where others bring the ball up. It also provides a great deal of versatility in the way you spread the floor.
How did that work for us last year? I was told Willis and Kalscheur could bring the ball up occasionally.
 

builtbadgers

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How did that work for us last year? I was told Willis and Kalscheur could bring the ball up occasionally.
Not well but Mashburn can do it and with the added length and versatility of Gach you can bring it up by passing and spreading the floor. Plus i am counting on Gabe having improved his own handle.
 

builtbadgers

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Depends on what happens with other teams, too.
Exactly . But the vast amount of fans watch their team from casually to passionately and really do not follow other coaches and teams closely. They likely do not know which coaches have their own roster, how they like to teach defense, what sets they will run, who they have recruited, what makes those recruits who they are. Even if someone does all those things they likely can not shed their bias and it will still be a guessing game. Fans often see what they want instead of what is.
 

bfriedrichs10

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Gach and Mashburn have played PG? At the P5 level?
So has there ever been an incoming top 100 combo guard at any school in the nation at any time that has been able to handle the PG position for ~10 minutes? If so, I'll put my faith in Mashburn, but I'm not going to research the history of recruiting to confirm it.

And wasn't one of Gach's (from a P5 school, right?) main goals to land on a team willing to put the ball in his hands? If so, seems like an odd request for him to make if he didn't think he'd be able to handle it and even odder for Pitino to want him if he didn't think Gach could handle it.
 

alchemy2u

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Exactly . But the vast amount of fans watch their team from casually to passionately and really do not follow other coaches and teams closely. They likely do not know which coaches have their own roster, how they like to teach defense, what sets they will run, who they have recruited, what makes those recruits who they are. Even if someone does all those things they likely can not shed their bias and it will still be a guessing game. Fans often see what they want instead of what is.
Well, I guess then everyone see things how they want them to be....
 

builtbadgers

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Well, I guess then everyone see things how they want them to be....
Unless you go by results, eliminate excuses to divorce a bias. After awhile a consensus gets built, especially in a basketball community where it is more than a hobby and many teams and coaches are measured. Then you get a clear picture without a hometown bias. Many fans keep their bias and i am totally fine if they keep on seeing results based on excuses and explanations. If it gives them pleasure to see things however they observe or measure i could care less. I just have never looked at anything that way. I was not raised that way, i never competed that way, i never pursued business or relationships that way. I find great joy in pursuit of results with a high aim on ethics and achievement . I never thinks this makes me better than anyone, everyone has the freedom to decide for themselves how they see things, what their life journey and experience is.
 

short ornery norwegian

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One of the questions on PG minutes is whether Pitino trusts anyone on the roster enough to let them play at the point. No question that last year, Pitino did not want to take Carr out of the game, even if Carr was gasping and wheezing like an emphysema patient.

So, two things need to happen. 1. Gophers need to have another player who is capable of playing the point. and 2. Pitino needs to trust that player enough to let him play the point.

I still maintain that, if Carr would have gotten just a little more rest last year, he would not have been so gassed at the end of games, and maybe, a couple of those games would not have slipped away.

We'll see if Pitino learned anything from last year. Because, according to some, he's a young coach who is still learning.
 

builtbadgers

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One of the questions on PG minutes is whether Pitino trusts anyone on the roster enough to let them play at the point. No question that last year, Pitino did not want to take Carr out of the game, even if Carr was gasping and wheezing like an emphysema patient.

So, two things need to happen. 1. Gophers need to have another player who is capable of playing the point. and 2. Pitino needs to trust that player enough to let him play the point.

I still maintain that, if Carr would have gotten just a little more rest last year, he would not have been so gassed at the end of games, and maybe, a couple of those games would not have slipped away.

We'll see if Pitino learned anything from last year. Because, according to some, he's a young coach who is still learning.
Of course he is still learning, so is everyone else. It is about how well you learn and how well you teach. Some people learn slowly and teach poorly, some are in the middle, hardly anyone is at the top ! That is why they are great, hardly anyone gets there. As for guards he will look to play a point and a half point combo, a 2-3 and a 4. The 2-3 will be split by versatile guys that can be used together and matched in defensive situations. When done effectively with a heavy nod to defense you force other teams to adjust to you. When you can dictate how games are played you have a huge advantage.
 

jovs

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One of the questions on PG minutes is whether Pitino trusts anyone on the roster enough to let them play at the point. No question that last year, Pitino did not want to take Carr out of the game, even if Carr was gasping and wheezing like an emphysema patient.

So, two things need to happen. 1. Gophers need to have another player who is capable of playing the point. and 2. Pitino needs to trust that player enough to let him play the point.

I still maintain that, if Carr would have gotten just a little more rest last year, he would not have been so gassed at the end of games, and maybe, a couple of those games would not have slipped away.

We'll see if Pitino learned anything from last year. Because, according to some, he's a young coach who is still learning.
Doesn't it also depend on scoring balance, last year so much of the scoring came from Carr and Oturu, that if you take either out for extended time scoring would stop. I think that had as much or more to do with substitution patterns than capability of someone to get minutes at PG.
 

alchemy2u

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One of the questions on PG minutes is whether Pitino trusts anyone on the roster enough to let them play at the point. No question that last year, Pitino did not want to take Carr out of the game, even if Carr was gasping and wheezing like an emphysema patient.

So, two things need to happen. 1. Gophers need to have another player who is capable of playing the point. and 2. Pitino needs to trust that player enough to let him play the point.

I still maintain that, if Carr would have gotten just a little more rest last year, he would not have been so gassed at the end of games, and maybe, a couple of those games would not have slipped away.

We'll see if Pitino learned anything from last year. Because, according to some, he's a young coach who is still learning.
Nice jab.... So who else was Pitino supposed to play at PG last year? I think they will be fine this year.
 
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