Why does Michigan still have interest from 4-5 star recruits?

A_Slab_of_Bacon

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They were bad this year but they were a top 10 program overall from 2015-2019. He has only “underperformed” because expectations are stupidly high.
Michigan recruits well, pays coaches well, etc, they should expect a lot.
 

die hard gopher

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I'd take it. But that's the floor there and OS owns them.
It was much worse with Hoke and Rich Rod so no, I wouldn’t say that’s the floor for them. It could always be worse if they canned Harbaugh.
 

die hard gopher

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Michigan recruits well, pays coaches well, etc, they should expect a lot.
If you take out his contract, Aside from this year, I’d say Harbaugh has met expectations people should have of Michigan. The sooner they realize they aren’t OSU, Bama, Clemson, LSU level, the better. I mean they were like 1-12 or something agaisnt OSU before Harbaugh got there. They’ve had 1 national tItle In like 60 years. They were a 5 win team when Harbaugh first got there. Michigan doesn’t have good instate talent compared to Ohio or the South.
 

Go U Phars

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Harbaugh is 49-22 at Michigan with four straight bowl losses in six seasons. He is 0-6 against Ohio state. Even Penn state has surpassed the wolverines. He got a pass this season but people here are not happy. It could get ugly in Ann Arbor this coming season.
 

4four4

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The state populations each of MI, OH, and PA each are over 10 to 13 million. Since, they have more high schools there's more of a chance developing 4 to 5 star players. Many states around the country don't have four major sports like Minnesota with population at 5.1 million there's just not enough 4 to 5 star players to go around our area. Honestly, I don't know if Nebraska will ever get to the levels they were used to ever again. IMO, WI, NE, and potentially MN will always be lower than the eastern Big Ten schools. Which just don't have the population to really compete with them.
 

MplsGopher

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Haven't checked the 247 player rankings, but I feel like Ohio produces far more 4* and 5* players than either of Michigan or PA.

You have to remember, similar to Illinois with its large population, Michigan (Detroit, Flint, Dearborn) and PA (Philly) have a lot of minority, urban population that either have no interest in American football and/or are too poor to afford it.

Point being, population alone doesn't tell the whole story.

Ohio does have some of that in Cleveland and Cincy, but a lot of population also spread out in the state, and the state is as football crazy as Texas.


I thought I recall watching a video on the Michigan Ohio St rivalry where the Ohio guys were basically razzing the Michigan program for getting all its top players from Ohio.

Similar to how Oklahoma feasts on Texas players.
 

MplsGopher

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As for why Michigan. How about this for a guess:

there are simply more 5* and 4* kids out there (what, must be at least 2-3 hundred per class?) than there are open roster spots at the very elite of the elite programs. Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, and so on can only take so many.

So where are the next level down kids going to go? They're going to pick the most elite programs that they can go to, and often times that is still driven by perception.
 

MNVCGUY

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Michigan is an interesting one. They have been good but not great for quite some time now. I think they see themselves as one of the elite in college football but they are not in that class at the moment. Harbaugh has done better than Rich Rod and Hoke but has not been as good as Carr was.

They haven't slipped as far as Nebraska but they are trending more in that direction. At one time Michigan and Ohio State would have been viewed on an equal footing but at this point Ohio State has put a lot of separation between the two schools.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon

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If you take out his contract, Aside from this year, I’d say Harbaugh has met expectations people should have of Michigan. The sooner they realize they aren’t OSU, Bama, Clemson, LSU level, the better. I mean they were like 1-12 or something agaisnt OSU before Harbaugh got there. They’ve had 1 national tItle In like 60 years. They were a 5 win team when Harbaugh first got there. Michigan doesn’t have good instate talent compared to Ohio or the South.


If you take out what I might pay for it, and the performance when it counts .... any car is a super car!
 

MplsGopher

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They haven't slipped as far as Nebraska but they are trending more in that direction.
Agree ..... but the last time both these teams won a national championship was in 1997.

Neb won the Orange bowl and were ranked #1 by the Coaches, while Mich won the Rose bowl and were ranked #1 by the AP.

No title game appearances or playoff bids since then.
 

GopherRock

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Knocking Michigan (and Harbaugh) has recently become trendy, but what is considered underperforming for them in the Harbaugh years, is pretty impressive. 49-22 record and three ten win seasons. 4 top 20 finishes in 6 years....oh, and they've had 34 players drafted in that 6 year span as well

The Gophers have more wins against Wisconsin since 2000 (3) than Michigan has wins against Ohio State in that same timeframe (2).
 

UpAndUnder43

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Look at the threads on here. We track our one potential first round pick in a decade like he is the Mars rover.

Michigan, who apparently is no longer good according to some, has a guy projected higher than Bateman.
 

hungan1

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Michigan QB Joe Milton enters draft portal, creating more questions for Jim Harbaugh. The proof is in the pudding as players are not improving at Michigan. What year will they turn into Nebraska? Do recruits not look at the history development of past players? Why would players go to Penn State with their history of sexual abuse of African-American boys?

Khaki Pants has a long long leash. Sooner or later he'll get strangled by his own leash.
 

MplsGopher

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Michigan, who apparently is no longer good according to some, has a guy projected higher than Bateman.
They're no longer as good as Ohio State has been since Urban. That is true. They were that good, back in the 90's.
 

Tommyboy

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The state populations each of MI, OH, and PA each are over 10 to 13 million. Since, they have more high schools there's more of a chance developing 4 to 5 star players. Many states around the country don't have four major sports like Minnesota with population at 5.1 million there's just not enough 4 to 5 star players to go around our area. Honestly, I don't know if Nebraska will ever get to the levels they were used to ever again. IMO, WI, NE, and potentially MN will always be lower than the eastern Big Ten schools. Which just don't have the population to really compete with them.
Yes, but Minnesota has only one Div I program until this year. Michigan has like 6 FBS programs.
 

MNVCGUY

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If being as good as Ohio St is the bar there is 5 good teams in the country

The bigger point though is that there was a time when Michigan was considered to be on par with Ohio State. That is no longer the case.
 

UpAndUnder43

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The bigger point though is that there was a time when Michigan was considered to be on par with Ohio State. That is no longer the case.

Agreed. But plenty of teams not on par with OSU get 4 and 5 star recruits, which is the point of this entire thread per the subject.
 

MplsGopher

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Agreed. But plenty of teams not on par with OSU get 4 and 5 star recruits, which is the point of this entire thread per the subject.
Correct.

A couple posts before was a discussion talking about Michigan not slipping as far as Nebraska, but trending in that direction. Anyway ...
 

UpAndUnder43

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Correct.

A couple posts before was a discussion talking about Michigan not slipping as far as Nebraska, but trending in that direction. Anyway ...

In the 5 seasons prior to 2020 (covid year was weird, we all agree on that) Michigan went a 47-18. Nebraska went 28-34. Michigan finished 4 of those seasons ranked in the top 25 (10, 12, 14 and 18), Nebraska finished 0 of those seasons ranked in the top 26. I don't really see how they are similar at all.

FWIW, Gophers are 38-26 with 1 top 25 finish (10)
 

MplsGopher

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In the 5 seasons prior to 2020 (covid year was weird, we all agree on that) Michigan went a 47-18. Nebraska went 28-34. Michigan finished 4 of those seasons ranked in the top 25 (10, 12, 14 and 18), Nebraska finished 0 of those seasons ranked in the top 26. I don't really see how they are similar at all.

FWIW, Gophers are 38-26 with 1 top 25 finish (10)
I agree those are not similar at all, for the small period you defined. Probably they still wouldn't be a ton closer if you went from after 1997, where I made the point that that season was the last natty for both programs. That was mainly my point.
 

die hard gopher

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If you take out what I might pay for it, and the performance when it counts .... any car is a super car!
Salary should only be used to measure what it took to get him to come there at the time, not how successful he’ll be compared to others. People do this with Kirk Cousins and Andrew Wiggins all the time. Yeah, if you look at them and all you see is the 3 year 84 million dollar contract or 29 million a year super max contract a year then yeah, you’ll be disappointed.

If you don’t let their salary influence your expectations for them then you can appreciate them for they are and what fair expectations for them should be. Just because the Vikings made Cousins a top 5 or top 3 highest paid QB's in the league at the time doesn't mean you should expect him to perform as a top 5 QB in the league. All it means is that was what it took to outbid the Jets.

Just because Michigan pays their coach a top 4 salary in the country, doesn't necessarily mean being the #4 team in the country is a fair expectation, it takes more than just throwing money at a coach and facilities to have a top 4 program.

If the gophers were to throw $15 or 20 million a year at Saban, Urban or Dabo and they came here, that doesn't mean being #1 in the country and winning a national title is a fair expectation for them at the U. All it would mean it that was what it took to pry them away from their previous stop.

If you have two options and one is to pay a coach $8 million but is only worth $6 million, or you can pay a coach $3 million and he is worth all of $3 million, as long as I have money to spend which Michigan does, I'd rather overpay by $2 million and get the coach worth $6 million than pay $3 million and get the $3 million coach.
 

UpAndUnder43

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I agree those are not similar at all, for the small period you defined. Probably they still wouldn't be a ton closer if you went from after 1997, where I made the point that that season was the last natty for both programs. That was mainly my point.

98-2020:
Nebraska is 183-108 with 10 top 25 finishes
Michigan is 188-96 with 15 top 25 finishes.

So they are similar over the past 20ish years but no one takes the last 20+ years to define the trajectory of a program. None of these players were alive in the years you're citing.
 

RememberMurray

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If your goals are to beat Ohio State and to contend for a national title, then you're almost certain to fall short of your goals each and every season.

You can keep firing and hiring and firing and hiring coaches until Doomsday, but the odds are extremely high you'll simply never get to that lofty place.

If you're lucky, you'll beat Ohio State once in a blue moon. The second goal is even less likely.

As someone astutely pointed out, the Michigan football program was in dismal condition when Harbaugh took over. They were bad last season, which in my mind is clearly an outlier. Other than that Harbaugh has vastly improved the Wolverine's standing since he took over.

Michigan would be wise to avoid rash decision-making regarding their coach.
 

MplsGopher

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98-2020:
Nebraska is 183-108 with 10 top 25 finishes
Michigan is 188-96 with 15 top 25 finishes.

So they are similar over the past 20ish years but no one takes the last 20+ years to define the trajectory of a program. None of these players were alive in the years you're citing.
That's more similar than I figured, thanks for checking it. All the same, you're correct.

Last year was obviously putrid for Michigan, and their boosters won't stand for it if it were to become a trend. But it's also not like Neb fans in the early 2000's were expecting what happened post-Solich.

Is Harbaugh the Solich of Michigan?
 

RememberMurray

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That's more similar than I figured, thanks for checking it. All the same, you're correct.

Last year was obviously putrid for Michigan, and their boosters won't stand for it if it were to become a trend. But it's also not like Neb fans in the early 2000's were expecting what happened post-Solich.

Is Harbaugh the Solich of Michigan?

Maybe more like Bo Pelini, who was 67-27 at Nebraska. They finished Top 25 in 5 of his 7 full seasons there.
 

MNVCGUY

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If your goals are to beat Ohio State and to contend for a national title, then you're almost certain to fall short of your goals each and every season.

You can keep firing and hiring and firing and hiring coaches until Doomsday, but the odds are extremely high you'll simply never get to that lofty place.

If you're lucky, you'll beat Ohio State once in a blue moon. The second goal is even less likely.

As someone astutely pointed out, the Michigan football program was in dismal condition when Harbaugh took over. They were bad last season, which in my mind is clearly an outlier. Other than that Harbaugh has vastly improved the Wolverine's standing since he took over.

Michigan would be wise to avoid rash decision-making regarding their coach.

Your first part would pertain to looking at it from our perspective. Yes, at Minnesota right now those would be lofty expectations. But that is not how they see it in Michigan. They don't see themselves as inferior to Ohio State.

Harbaugh has fixed a lot of the damage done by the coaches that came immediately before him but he has fallen short of getting them back to where they ultimately expect to be which is the equal to Ohio State.

In a lot of ways the Michigan/Ohio State dynamic matches very closely with the Minnesota/Wisconsin one. Ohio State has owned the series for the last 20 years just as Wisconsin has against us. The one difference is that it definitely feels like the gap between us and Wisconsin is narrowing over the past few years whereas in general it feels like Ohio State is continuing to widen the gap between Michigan and really the rest of the Big Ten as well.
 

4four4

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Yes, but Minnesota has only one Div I program until this year. Michigan has like 6 FBS programs.
Agreed but with more population there is still more 4 and 5 star players to recruit from.
 

A_Slab_of_Bacon

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Salary should only be used to measure what it took to get him to come there at the time, not how successful he’ll be compared to others. People do this with Kirk Cousins and Andrew Wiggins all the time. Yeah, if you look at them and all you see is the 3 year 84 million dollar contract or 29 million a year super max contract a year then yeah, you’ll be disappointed.

If you don’t let their salary influence your expectations for them then you can appreciate them for they are and what fair expectations for them should be. Just because the Vikings made Cousins a top 5 or top 3 highest paid QB's in the league at the time doesn't mean you should expect him to perform as a top 5 QB in the league. All it means is that was what it took to outbid the Jets.

Just because Michigan pays their coach a top 4 salary in the country, doesn't necessarily mean being the #4 team in the country is a fair expectation, it takes more than just throwing money at a coach and facilities to have a top 4 program.

If the gophers were to throw $15 or 20 million a year at Saban, Urban or Dabo and they came here, that doesn't mean being #1 in the country and winning a national title is a fair expectation for them at the U. All it would mean it that was what it took to pry them away from their previous stop.

If you have two options and one is to pay a coach $8 million but is only worth $6 million, or you can pay a coach $3 million and he is worth all of $3 million, as long as I have money to spend which Michigan does, I'd rather overpay by $2 million and get the coach worth $6 million than pay $3 million and get the $3 million coach.


I'm not sure I understand your theory.

They didn't pay Jim top 4 money to just 'to get him there', they pay him every year to do a job....

I overpay for anything ... I over paid if I don't get what I was looking for.

If the gophers were to throw $15 or 20 million a year at Saban, Urban or Dabo and they came here, that doesn't mean being #1 in the country and winning a national title is a fair expectation for them at the U.

That in fact would be the expectations eventually and the entire point you pulled out 20 mil a year ....
 

MplsGopher

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Maybe more like Bo Pelini, who was 67-27 at Nebraska. They finished Top 25 in 5 of his 7 full seasons there.
I guess either case serves my point: they fired them thinking they would do better, and the next coach did much worse.
 
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