Who Killed George Floyd

bga1

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Since the body cam videos came out, a different perspective is now available. I like everyone else believed that Chauvin was 100% guilty. I'm not so sure now. Regardless of where you stand this article offers an interesting summary not covered by the media so far:
 

KillerGopherFan

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Since the body cam videos came out, a different perspective is now available. I like everyone else believed that Chauvin was 100% guilty. I'm not so sure now. Regardless of where you stand this article offers an interesting summary not covered by the media so far:
In their rush to get charges against the police officers, the district and state attorneys have corrupted their case. Floyd may have contributed to his death or even been the primary cause of his death. I doubt we will ever know with certainty.

Chauvin is still an arrogant POS and was reckless in doing his duties, and may have contributed to Floyd’s death by holding his position for an excessive period of time after Floyd was apparently unconscious. He may have reasonable doubt on his side, but it won’t outweigh the societal pressure for a conviction.

The other officers should have their charges dropped.
 

John Galt

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Fascinating read - the best description yet of what actually happened.
 

WAGopher

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Since the body cam videos came out, a different perspective is now available. I like everyone else believed that Chauvin was 100% guilty. I'm not so sure now. Regardless of where you stand this article offers an interesting summary not covered by the media so far:
I just read the article you referenced and while the author George Parry brings up some legitimate questions, he biases his reader by stating things that are patently untrue. The first untruth is that Floyd's "bloodstream [contained] over three times the potentially lethal limit of fentanyl." First, there is not a known lethal dose of fentanyl because it is different for eveyone and some people develop a limited tolerance after prolonged use.

I checked the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office Autopsy Report for George Floyd and he did have 11 ng/Ml of Fentanyl, which is at the low end of medical use as an anesthesia. (medical use of fentanyl as an anesthesia can range from 10 to 20 ng/Ml and can be used on concious patients).

The author is a longtime prosecutor and most likely knows better. His article appears in the conservative political website, The American Spectator.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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I just read the article you referenced and while the author George Parry brings up some legitimate questions, he biases his reader by stating things that are patently untrue. The first untruth is that Floyd's "bloodstream [contained] over three times the potentially lethal limit of fentanyl." First, there is not a known lethal dose of fentanyl because it is different for eveyone and some people develop a limited tolerance after prolonged use.

I checked the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office Autopsy Report for George Floyd and he did have 11 ng/Ml of Fentanyl, which is at the low end of medical use as an anesthesia. (medical use of fentanyl as an anesthesia can range from 10 to 20 ng/Ml and can be used on concious patients).

The author is a longtime prosecutor and most likely knows better. His article appears in the conservative political website, The American Spectator.
If I'm understanding you correctly, the minor discrepancy in the actual amount of illicit and illegal drug invalidates the entire article? Makes sense I guess?
 

John Galt

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If what the author is posting is true, it’s probably the groundbreaking article of 2020 and invalidates everything that has happened over the past 3 months. If Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe due to drug use prior to the police using excess force, it invalidates the entire case against the police and at worst Chauvin ends up with manslaughter.
 

howeda7

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Trump should run with this story.
 

Spoofin

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If what the author is posting is true, it’s probably the groundbreaking article of 2020 and invalidates everything that has happened over the past 3 months. If Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe due to drug use prior to the police using excess force, it invalidates the entire case against the police and at worst Chauvin ends up with manslaughter.
"Refund the Police"???
 

LesBolstad

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Certainly a reasonable doubt defense for Chauvin. All those cops may walk.
 

GopherJake

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If what the author is posting is true, it’s probably the groundbreaking article of 2020 and invalidates everything that has happened over the past 3 months. If Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe due to drug use prior to the police using excess force, it invalidates the entire case against the police and at worst Chauvin ends up with manslaughter.
The bold doesn't make logical sense.

That aside, the question boils down to, were it not for the actions of the Minneapolis police, would George Floyd have died? The pretty obvious answer is no. People with drugs in their system do not deserve to be treated like he was. If those police tried instead to de-escalate the situation, instead of getting in his face and exerting nothing but force, George Floyd would be alive today.
 

Section2

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bga1

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If what the author is posting is true, it’s probably the groundbreaking article of 2020 and invalidates everything that has happened over the past 3 months. If Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe due to drug use prior to the police using excess force, it invalidates the entire case against the police and at worst Chauvin ends up with manslaughter.
Here's the bad news: If Chauvin, who still probably deserves some punishment gets off somehow, or even gets a lesser charge, we are looking at a second round of national riots. There will be no reasoning with the rioters, regardless of the law or the truth.
 

Livingat45north

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If what the author is posting is true, it’s probably the groundbreaking article of 2020 and invalidates everything that has happened over the past 3 months. If Floyd was claiming he couldn’t breathe due to drug use prior to the police using excess force, it invalidates the entire case against the police and at worst Chauvin ends up with manslaughter.
Which is of course why Ellison hid the video from the public.
 

bga1

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The bold doesn't make logical sense.

That aside, the question boils down to, were it not for the actions of the Minneapolis police, would George Floyd have died? The pretty obvious answer is no. People with drugs in their system do not deserve to be treated like he was. If those police tried instead to de-escalate the situation, instead of getting in his face and exerting nothing but force, George Floyd would be alive today.
The law is...beyond a reasonable doubt. Floyd couldn't breathe before the cops stopped him. It is not the fault of the police that they stopped him- that's their job. From there it was also their job to bring him in. It was also their job, when they saw that he was on drugs, having an anxiety attack and appeared to be on the verge of a heart attack (per the transcript), to call for medical help- which they did. The kneeling on him, whether or not it is the right thing to do is a trained action and apparently he did that according to protocol as well. If all that is true it does invalidate the case and as Galt says, maybe brings it to a lesser charge if we find that Chauvin actually took actions that are provably causal to Floyd's death.

In any event, this is far less cut and dried than RACIST COPS! SYSTEMIC RACISM! It looks far more like a tragic accident.
 

John Galt

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The bold doesn't make logical sense.

That aside, the question boils down to, were it not for the actions of the Minneapolis police, would George Floyd have died? The pretty obvious answer is no. People with drugs in their system do not deserve to be treated like he was. If those police tried instead to de-escalate the situation, instead of getting in his face and exerting nothing but force, George Floyd would be alive today.
If what’s being posted is true, it creates a reasonable doubt that the police actions led to, let alone caused his death. Do I think Floyd would have died without a knee on his neck? No. Will a juror think there is a reasonable doubt if this evidence is true? Very possible. If it can be shown that Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe before he was on the ground, there is a strong case that he was having significant health issues from the drugs prior to police involvement. In this case, even if Chauvin’s actions ultimately led to his death, I don’t think it would meet the legal criteria for 2nd degree murder.
 

Section2

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I just read the article you referenced and while the author George Parry brings up some legitimate questions, he biases his reader by stating things that are patently untrue. The first untruth is that Floyd's "bloodstream [contained] over three times the potentially lethal limit of fentanyl." First, there is not a known lethal dose of fentanyl because it is different for eveyone and some people develop a limited tolerance after prolonged use.

I checked the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office Autopsy Report for George Floyd and he did have 11 ng/Ml of Fentanyl, which is at the low end of medical use as an anesthesia. (medical use of fentanyl as an anesthesia can range from 10 to 20 ng/Ml and can be used on concious patients).

The author is a longtime prosecutor and most likely knows better. His article appears in the conservative political website, The American Spectator.
It specifically says "potentially lethal dose". For that statement to be "patently untrue", no one could have ever had a lethal overdose from 3 ng/Ml. Now, I don't know if that statement is true or false, so maybe you could clarify?
 

Panthadad2

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I can't understand how anyone would want to use Fentanyl recreationally even if euphoric. Extremely dangerous. I had a close family member in the ICU for an extended period who was on Fentanyl for several days post-op. The doctor explained how effective it was in killing pain, but also how extremely dangerous it was in that the body could shut down suddenly if the patient wasn't monitored very closely. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention right after Floyd died, but I don't remember hearing that the drug he used was Fentanyl.
 

saintpaulguy

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I can't understand how anyone would want to use Fentanyl recreationally even if euphoric. Extremely dangerous. I had a close family member in the ICU for an extended period who was on Fentanyl for several days post-op. The doctor explained how effective it was in killing pain, but also how extremely dangerous it was in that the body could shut down suddenly if the patient wasn't monitored very closely. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention right after Floyd died, but I don't remember hearing that the drug he used was Fentanyl.
I don't think anybody sets out to use it intentionally. It is used by street users of heroin, sometimes unknowingly. Because it is so much more potent, the smuggling gets easier. The dealers cut it to level of street heroin, or at least they try. Many people have died because the dealer didn't mix the bag very well.

From what I've heard, the Fentanyl doesn't produce a euphoric high like heroin, and isn't preferred, but it will prevent withdrawal symptoms.
 

Spoofin

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I don't think anybody sets out to use it intentionally. It is used by street users of heroin, sometimes unknowingly. Because it is so much more potent, the smuggling gets easier. The dealers cut it to level of street heroin, or at least they try. Many people have died because the dealer didn't mix the bag very well.

From what I've heard, the Fentanyl doesn't produce a euphoric high like heroin, and isn't preferred, but it will prevent withdrawal symptoms.
Prince?
 

saintpaulguy

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I meant as a recreational drug. He was using it as a painkiller. And as it sounds, it was the top of a pyramid. Starting out with Fentanyl to kill pain is insanity, unless it is the only thing that will work.
 

saintpaulguy

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Distrust of the Minneapolis Police, and Also the Effort to Defund Them
Residents on Minneapolis’s North Side, which has a majority Black population, have mixed opinions on the City Council’s effort to significantly reduce the police force.

By John Eligon
  • Published Aug. 4, 2020Updated Aug. 6, 2020, 2:24 p.m. ET
  • New York Times
MINNEAPOLIS — The burgundy Oldsmobile sped through an intersection in a tree-lined residential neighborhood on Minneapolis’s North Side, and Lisa Williams shook her head in disgust.
“Look at this,” she said, surrounded by four of her young grandchildren on the short stoop of her home. “They ride as fast as they can right down through here with no regard for the children.”
It is in such moments — when she is reminded of the many dangers in her community, from speeding cars to gunshots — that Ms. Williams, 50, would welcome the presence of the police.
But then she recalls the time several years ago when she and her husband arrived home to find several police vehicles parked on their front lawn. Officers told them to mind their own business when they asked what was going on, leading to an argument that ended with her husband getting handcuffed and taken to jail.
Minneapolis’s North Side, with a majority Black population, has decidedly mixed opinions on the City Council’s effort, following the police killing of George Floyd, to significantly reduce the size and scope of Minneapolis’s police force.
Residents complain of rampant police mistreatment, but also of out-of-control crime and violence. That reality has left many Black residents here unenthusiastic about what has become known as the defund movement. Adding complexity to the debate, they say that they despise the police but need someone to call when things go awry.

“It does seem like a no-win situation,” Ms. Williams said.
Proponents of defunding argue that having considerably fewer — or no — police officers could actually reduce crime because those resources could instead be invested into communities struggling with poverty.
But that argument does not win over everybody.
In a survey last month of likely voters in 10 battleground states, just under half of Black respondents said they would be more likely to support a candidate who made defunding the police a priority, according to the poll commissioned by Run for Something, which supports young, progressive candidates, and Collective PAC, which backs Black candidates.
Reducing police department budgets drew support from 70 percent of Black Americans, according to a Gallup poll released in July. Yet only 22 percent of Black respondents supported the more drastic measure pushed by some activists of zeroing out police department budgets altogether.


“What are they suggesting would be the answer if we didn’t have police?” asked Bunny Beeks, whose mother was fatally shot in North Minneapolis four years ago. “I just don’t understand what that would look like.”
The Minneapolis City Council’s proposal would not totally eliminate the Police Department. But some council members have said they would like to replace the existing department, which has been widely criticized for its aggressive attitudes toward Black residents.
Most North Side residents say they hope for major reforms, including requiring officers to live in their community and better training them to interact with residents.
Tiffany Roberson, whose brother, Jamar Clark, was fatally shot by the police five years ago, suggested creating a community council that could work with and oversee the police in North Minneapolis.
Though skeptics say that decades of reforms have failed to create fundamental change, some residents said they had faith that Mr. Floyd’s death, and the outrage it has prompted, could make this time different.
‘JUSTICE FOR HANNAH’
A family in small-town Missouri discovers the challenges of protesting police killings in rural America.

Many residents say they have confidence in Chief Medaria Arradondo, the first African-American to hold the position, saying he has shown an appetite for change that past police leaders have not. But a reform-minded chief cannot overhaul a department alone.
Speaking from a North Side street corner where young men sitting on lawn chairs chat on sunny summer days, Royal Jones, 32, said he had had many brushes with law enforcement. He compared his feelings about the police to his relationship with his mother growing up. He said she might “whoop” him for doing something wrong, and he might get mad at her for it, but at the end of the day, he still relied on her.

“Even a person like me might need the police,” Royal Jones, a North Sider, said.Credit...Nina Robinson for The New York Times
Similarly, he said, if someone broke into his house, he would have to rely on law enforcement to handle it rather than “go the street way,” which would just prompt more violence.
“Even a person like me might need the police,” he said.
Still, Mr. Jones said he believed that a better approach might be to employ community outreach workers to avert violence before it happens and interact with police officers once it occurs. Such efforts already exist, but Mr. Jones said they could be more robust.
Standing nearby, his friend Kentrell Grimes, a fellow North Sider, was not necessarily buying that approach.
“At the end of the day, that is still policing,” said Mr. Grimes, 25, a cook. “This is what I’m saying, though: How can you defund the police and then bring another group to police? That’s stupid. I’m sitting here trying to wrap my brain around this.”
Minneapolis proponents of defunding the police have said that these are the types of discussions that community members needed to have to decide what works best for public safety in their neighborhoods.
Some may see the need for armed officers. Others may come up with a different model. Kandace Montgomery, the director of Black Visions Collective, a leading advocate of defunding in Minneapolis, acknowledged the difficulty of getting people to envision a system of public safety different from the only one they have always known.
“We do have to imagine,” she said. “I recognize that is deeply scary.”
City Council members have worked closely with Black Visions Collective and other Black-led organizations in an effort to defund the Police Department. That has stirred tensions.
Many North Side civic leaders and legacy organizations, like the Urban League and several Black churches, have accused elected officials of ignoring the voices of their communities as they create a path forward for policing. They point out that some of the defund movement’s leaders are based on the South Side — where Mr. Floyd was killed by the police — which has a much smaller Black population.
“They’ve made this choice for us as Black people, when they don’t necessarily live or engage with Black people,” said Raeisha Williams, a community activist whose brother was fatally shot two years ago. “When my house is broken into, I want to be able to call the police. When my security alarm goes off, I want to know they’re going to arrive and protect my family.”
The council has proposed amending the City Charter to eliminate the Police Department as a core agency and replace it with a new public safety department. That move alone would not eliminate the police, but it would provide a blank canvas on which city leaders could create a new mechanism for public safety that could include social services and crime-prevention initiatives.
The two council members representing the North Side, Phillipe Cunningham and Jeremiah Ellison, have supported the effort to change the charter and defund the police.
“To say that Black North Siders have not had a voice erases the existence of two Black North Side council members,” Mr. Cunningham said.

Kentrell Grimes with his 2-year-old son, Kentrell Jr. “How can you defund the police and then bring another group to police?” Mr. Grimes said.Credit...Nina Robinson for The New York Times
He said his constituents have told him they want to see “transformative change in the way that the city keeps our community safe.”
He acknowledged that the police could not be eliminated in one fell swoop.
“We will likely need some form of law enforcement for the foreseeable future,” Mr. Cunningham said. Yet he envisioned a system in which greater investment in things like community workers, health, housing and education would stabilize the community and drive down crime.
But that is difficult for many to envision right now as Minneapolis, like many other urban areas across the country, is in the midst of a spike in gun violence. The Police Department’s Fourth Precinct, which covers North Minneapolis, has seen more murders and violent crimes this year than any other precinct in the city.
One of those victims of violence was Taona Mays, 24, who was sitting in the back of a friend’s sport utility vehicle on a Saturday in late July when a man walked up alongside the car and began shooting. A bullet struck her left hip, leaving her with a severe limp.
“The presence of the police is definitely needed because without it, people definitely will just do anything,” said Ms. Mays, who does medical transport at a hospital.
Yet she also embraces elements of what defund activists have been preaching. If there were fewer officers, she said, they would only be able to focus on major crimes rather than harassing people for petty things. She actually wants something to replace the police, she said, but she cannot think of what that would be.
“It’s good to have good police,” she said. “It’s bad to have bad police.”

John Eligon is a Kansas City-based national correspondent covering race. He previously worked as a reporter in Sports and Metro, and his work has taken him to Nelson Mandela's funeral in South Africa and the Winter Olympics in Turin. @jeligon
 

WAGopher

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If I'm understanding you correctly, the minor discrepancy in the actual amount of illicit and illegal drug invalidates the entire article? Makes sense I guess?
Minor, it was an absolute falsehood and does call into question the vale of the entire article.
 

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damn, can't read that article. Can you copy paste some relevant sections? This is too delicious.
A move to disband the Minneapolis Police Department in the wake of George Floyd’s killing faced an uncertain future Wednesday after a commission blocked the city council from putting a necessary initiative on the November ballot.

The proposal would replace the police department with a new public safety agency, but the Minneapolis Charter Commission voted 10 to 5 to delay consideration of a ballot measure to eliminate the city charter requirement that the city maintains a certain number of police officers per capita.
The commission, a court-appointed board of volunteers, passed a 90-day delay, which prevents the Minneapolis City Council from meeting an Aug. 21 deadline to get the proposal on the Nov. 3 ballot — a move that effectively kicks the issue to 2021.

The proposal, backed by a majority of the city council, would allow Minneapolis to replace its troubled department, which has long been accused of racism and use of excessive force, with a new agency focused on a “holistic, public health-oriented approach” to public safety.
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City council members have said the proposed new agency, tentatively named the Department of Community Safety and Violence Prevention, would include a division of armed law enforcement officers. Yet the proposal does not say how many officers would be employed or what their specific role would be — uncertainty that was repeatedly cited by charter commission members who argued that voters deserve more specifics.
“The council says, ‘Trust us. We’ll figure it out after this is approved. Trust us,’ ” Barry Clegg, a Minneapolis attorney who chairs the commission, said ahead of Wednesday’s vote. “Well, I don’t. … We need more time to fill in these blanks so voters can make a decision based on an actual specific plan and not the promise of one.”

Wednesday’s vote came after several weeks of fierce debate, in which some members of the commission and the public openly complained that efforts to dismantle the police department were moving too quickly. Ten weeks after Floyd’s death in police custody, the debate over what to do with the police department has played out against an especially violent summer in Minneapolis, with a record number of shootings and other crimes.
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It’s unclear where the debate goes from here. Thousands of people have marched in the streets across Minneapolis since Floyd’s Memorial Day death, calling on the city to defund the police. In the neighborhood where Floyd was killed, handmade signs reading “Abolish the Police” dot the landscape.
Yet those calls were met with an equally loud contingent of critics, including Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and prominent members of the black community, who pressed for a more cautious approach. Some residents, including those living on the city’s predominantly black north side, which has suffered a rash of deadly shootings and other violent crime in recent weeks, have argued they need more police, not fewer, and said they had been left out of the public process.

“There is no one who does not want real reform in the Minneapolis Police Department,” Lisa Clemons, a local activist from the north side who works with the anti-violence group A Mother’s Love, wrote on Facebook. She argued that trying to enact reform without the input of Medaria Arradondo, the city’s first black police chief, and members of the community “just makes no sense.”
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Yet some have been critical of the outsize role of the charter commission in the effort to enact change — complaining the panel’s 15 members are appointed by a Hennepin County judge and not elected by Minneapolis residents, thousands of whom submitted public comments in favor of the proposed ballot amendment.
Commissioner Andrea Rubenstein, who chaired a working group that studied the proposal, acknowledged the tensions. While admitting she opposed the effort to dismantle the police department, she argued against delaying consideration of the measure in favor of an “up or down” vote, which would have allowed the city council to put the charter amendment on the ballot for voters to decide.

“If we table it, it feels more like a sleight of hand,” Rubenstein said. “It’s perfectly true that we lack sufficient information to make an informed decision … but an extension to consider it will not help us fill in any missing pieces.” Other members rejected her effort.
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It was not immediately clear how the city council might proceed. In a call with constituents, Andrea Jenkins, a city council member who represents the South Minneapolis neighborhood where Floyd was killed, said she hoped the council could still find a way to get the issue on the ballot in November.
“I think it should be on the ballot so that all of our neighbors can weigh in,” she said.
But it was unclear if the council had any power to challenge the charter commission’s delay, which was legally permitted under state law.
In a statement posted on Twitter, city council President Lisa Bender said the commission’s vote was “disappointing and creates barriers to change but it will not stop our work to re-imagine public safety.”
 

saintpaulguy

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The question that would need to be answered is if he was checking out on his own, why the need for the neck restraint? In the view of the officers, he still represented enough of a threat to require three people to keep him restrained.
 

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The question that would need to be answered is if he was checking out on his own, why the need for the neck restraint? In the view of the officers, he still represented enough of a threat to require three people to keep him restrained.
yeah, I don't know how we went to them trying to get him in the car, and then letting him get on the ground, to a knee on his neck. After reading that, I no longer feel that the knee on the neck killed him, but I'm still not clear why they did it. And I guess best case, it was really bad optics.
 
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