UW-Madison does not want former Badgers wide receiver Quintez Cephus back lawyers say

Some guy

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It is very strange to me that at a public university non criminal sexual behavior can be grounds for expulsion.
 

Pompous Elitist

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Press conference — lawyers speak, teammates stand in support. Pulling the race card... This could get explosive for UW if the race angle takes hold although the hierarchy favors women over black (or white or brown) men...The Wisconsinites don’t seem familiar with “The Process” not requiring the same level of proof or lack of similar due process to a criminal or civil trial, respectively. They may also underestimate an administration’s sympathies for the EOAA and apparent digging in the heels/circling of the wagons for national PR purposes in the era of MeToo. Pass some popcorn.


https://www.channel3000.com/content...petition-to-readmit-quintez-cephus/1108493243
 

Word

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Press conference — lawyers speak, teammates stand in support. Pulling the race card... This could get explosive for UW if the race angle takes hold although the hierarchy favors women over black men...The Wisconsinites don’t seem familiar with “The Process” not requiring the same level of proof or lack of similar due process to a criminal or civil trial, respectively. They may also underestimate administration’s sympathies for the EOAA and digging in the heels.circling the wagons for national PR purposes in the era of MeToo. Pass some popcorn.


https://www.channel3000.com/content...petition-to-readmit-quintez-cephus/1108493243
NM
 

Pompous Elitist

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Apparently father of accuser is (allegedly) a current or former regent and large donor. Hmmm.


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Spoofin

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"Players like this" meaning players who put themselves in a situation where they can be accused of these things.
You need to keep yourself out of trouble these days,especially with people you don't know. And you can't be caught alone with someone who is female or in a lower stature of power than you.

It's just not safe. This has been established.
Your advice is never be alone with a girl. You should tour campuses preaching this.


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Spoofin

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Doesn’t matter if he didn’t commit a crime.

The university has every right to expel any student for violating the code of conduct at any time.
1. It should.

2. You have been asked more than once. Please tell us what the code of conduct violation was.


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Face The Facts

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Your advice is never be alone with a girl. You should tour campuses preaching this.


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Close.

Never be alone with a girl you don't know well that isn't a public place. Library, fine. Restaurant, fine. 2:00 AM after a party after both were drinking... could be problems that stem from that, especially if you and the girl haven't known each other very long.
 

bc2211

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We’d have a long discussion about the life choices he made that led to the events of that night. Probably, he wasn’t a perfect angel.

Very, very unlikely some woman that he’s never met in his life randomly lashes out at someone with a false accusation. Also, if there is literally no proof of anything and no one is willing to testify at all, including the accuser, then it’s very likely the school wouldn’t take action.
I don’t know what information the school was acting on, but the evidence presented in court (one of the accuser’s text messages before and after the incident and video of her walking through the lobby immediately) contradict her sworn allegations.




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RememberMurray

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Close.

Never be alone with a girl you don't know well that isn't a public place. Library, fine. Restaurant, fine. 2:00 AM after a party after both were drinking... could be problems that stem from that, especially if you and the girl haven't known each other very long.
Really? This is the 'New Normal'?

Isn't there a better way? Like, oh... I dunno... due process?! The rights of the accused, to face his (or her!) accuser? The right to a fair trial? Innocent until proved...

... oh, blah, blah, blah. Never mind. I'm a creature of the past. 'Back in the day, when we had rights...' It's a Brave New World.
 

Face The Facts

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Really? This is the 'New Normal'?

Isn't there a better way? Like, oh... I dunno... due process?! The rights of the accused, to face his (or her!) accuser? The right to a fair trial? Innocent until proved...

... oh, blah, blah, blah. Never mind. I'm a creature of the past. 'Back in the day, when we had rights...' It's a Brave New World.

There might be a better way, but you really have to be aware these days of your surroundings. Change might come, but it would sure help these single-men in their case if these reports came out and there defense could be "Well, we dated for 6 months, or we dated for 6 weeks, or we've been on 6 dates and things seemed to be going well. You know, like it was an actual relationship at that point. Then it would be more of a domestic case of whether there was abuse and when it started. But without any history to put in into context, the worse is assumed and it's hard to defend with or without witnesses if a girl says she's raped. In years past, the burden was put on the victim to prove it, but with it being a traumatic event, it's probably good that they don't have to endure more embarrassment and pain to have to make a case.

In the end, this is probably better and men (or boys) need to start to act as such.
It can be a real trap for men, and that's why it's better for them to get to know these girls so they can better assess whether it's a trap or not.

I would bet that inside the Gopher football meetings, PJ is having conversations to this point about these men being aware of their surroundings.
 

Gophers_4life

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It should.
Absurd. The burdens of proof are completely different, as is correct for the completely different consequences.

If your hypothesis were correct, it would’ve been tried in court by now. That it hasn’t, is telling.
 

RememberMurray

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Absurd. The burdens of proof are completely different, as is correct for the completely different consequences.

If your hypothesis were correct, it would’ve been tried in court by now. That it hasn’t, is telling.
??????????????????????

You have been asked repeatedly: what is the burden of proof in these cases? I assume you know precisely what it is, since you seem very, very comfortable with it.

Would you please enlighten those of us who don't know?
 

Schnauzer

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I wish people would quite responding to, and quoting G4L. It sort of wrecks the work I have done to ignore-list him and his habit of filling up every discussion with dozens of responses. For me, I can't think of another person over the years that has done more to drag down GH discussions so consistently. I've got other people I have ignore-listed but none have had the prolific, consistent ability to infect nearly every discussion, and then revisit every discussion to continue to drag them down over and over again.
 

RememberMurray

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I wish people would quite responding to, and quoting G4L. It sort of wrecks the work I have done to ignore-list him and his habit of filling up every discussion with dozens of responses. For me, I can't think of another person over the years that has done more to drag down GH discussions so consistently. I've got other people I have ignore-listed but none have had the prolific, consistent ability to infect nearly every discussion, and then revisit every discussion to continue to drag them down over and over again.
That's good advice. I'm going to follow it.
 

MinnGopher

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"Players like this" meaning players who put themselves in a situation where they can be accused of these things.
You need to keep yourself out of trouble these days,especially with people you don't know. And you can't be caught alone with someone who is female or in a lower stature of power than you.

It's just not safe. This has been established.
You are an idiot. Yeah everyone should live in fear and always cover their ass. What kind of way is that to live? Funny thing is that I would bet that you haven't insulated yourself from all of these types of situations either, even if it is in a different context.
 

MinnGopher

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There might be a better way, but you really have to be aware these days of your surroundings. Change might come, but it would sure help these single-men in their case if these reports came out and there defense could be "Well, we dated for 6 months, or we dated for 6 weeks, or we've been on 6 dates and things seemed to be going well. You know, like it was an actual relationship at that point. Then it would be more of a domestic case of whether there was abuse and when it started. But without any history to put in into context, the worse is assumed and it's hard to defend with or without witnesses if a girl says she's raped. In years past, the burden was put on the victim to prove it, but with it being a traumatic event, it's probably good that they don't have to endure more embarrassment and pain to have to make a case.

In the end, this is probably better and men (or boys) need to start to act as such.
It can be a real trap for men, and that's why it's better for them to get to know these girls so they can better assess whether it's a trap or not.

I would bet that inside the Gopher football meetings, PJ is having conversations to this point about these men being aware of their surroundings.
Again, stupidity. Saying you did this or that doesn't really make it less likely someone was assaulted. Have you heard the stats about how its often someone a victim knows? And then you go into something about a domestic case? No buddy, sexual assault wouldn't be a domestic abuse case, its sexual assault.

Do you feel women are unable to make their own choices? Are you a feminist because I bet you would say you are? Women can make choices about the situations they put themselves in too, but I don't expect them to change if they don't want to because it is their right.

The worse is assumed because of people like you who give into illogical and loud pitchfork nation.

Yeah we should let anybody accuse and choose the outcome of someone who is accused because of the difficulty that comes with making that allegation? Ha, no way.

Probably my biggest issue is that you feel that men are being targeted? Lol. Women are way more likely to experience sexual assault. What about the women being targeted by men when they are drunk? Is that not predatory?

For the record, I think its sad how often people are held accountable, but I am not going to lie and say that I have some better idea that balances the rights of the accused and the accuser. I don't get what else Cephus' could have done to clear his name in this case. Does UW know more than the courts? No they have the same facts and are choosing to punish based on an allegation that wasn't upheld, although against a different standard. What would his code of conduct violations be? Can you or G4L help me with that or are you just going to whine instead of actually making your point and having a discussion for everyone to better understand?
 
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LakerFan

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I wish people would quite responding to, and quoting G4L. It sort of wrecks the work I have done to ignore-list him and his habit of filling up every discussion with dozens of responses. For me, I can't think of another person over the years that has done more to drag down GH discussions so consistently. I've got other people I have ignore-listed but none have had the prolific, consistent ability to infect nearly every discussion, and then revisit every discussion to continue to drag them down over and over again.
+1
 

Face The Facts

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Again, stupidity. Saying you did this or that doesn't really make it less likely someone was assaulted. Have you heard the stats about how its often someone a victim knows? And then you go into something about a domestic case? No buddy, sexual assault wouldn't be a domestic abuse case, its sexual assault.

Do you feel women are unable to make their own choices? Are you a feminist because I bet you would say you are? Women can make choices about the situations they put themselves in too, but I don't expect them to change if they don't want to because it is their right.

The worse is assumed because of people like you who give into illogical and loud pitchfork nation.

Yeah we should let anybody accuse and choose the outcome of someone who is accused because of the difficulty that comes with making that allegation? Ha, no way.

Probably my biggest issue is that you feel that men are being targeted? Lol. Women are way more likely to experience sexual assault. What about the women being targeted by men when they are drunk? Is that not predatory?

For the record, I think its sad how often people are held accountable, but I am not going to lie and say that I have some better idea that balances the rights of the accused and the accuser. I don't get what else Cephus' could have done to clear his name in this case. Does UW know more than the courts? No they have the same facts and are choosing to punish based on an allegation that wasn't upheld, although against a different standard. What would his code of conduct violations be? Can you or G4L help me with that or are you just going to whine instead of actually making your point and having a discussion for everyone to better understand?
You are drawing a lot of conclusions here and I don't understand your line of thinking to analyze whether you might be on the right path or not.

I think I agree with some of what you are saying in that women do get targeted more than men.
I don't know what happened in the Cephus situation to give you any answers on that.
 

MinnGopher

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You are drawing a lot of conclusions here and I don't understand your line of thinking to analyze whether you might be on the right path or not.

I think I agree with some of what you are saying in that women do get targeted more than men.
I don't know what happened in the Cephus situation to give you any answers on that.
on the right path? I have a problem with sexual assault but I also have a problem with this whole you were accused of something so now we are going to levy consequences/murkiness around you to prevent you from actually fully participating in society. There isn't really a right path other than trying to better the world in a way you seem fit?

You on the other hand seem to feel only men are capable decision makers in these situations, based off of what you have said, and seem to think that if someone was accused of something we should hinder their ability to move on and contribute to society.

You don't need to analyze anything, I'm deconstructing your absurd claims/statements. I get it that you won't understand/agree.
 

Gophers_4life

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I also have a problem with this whole you were accused of something so now we are going to levy consequences/murkiness around you to prevent you from actually fully participating in society.
Accusers almost never gain anything from coming forward, and more likely lose something in the process (at the very least, stress and emotional pain in having to recall the incident and the impact it had on them).

That’s why they are to be believed, and not silenced.

This is a concept that many here struggle with mightily.

The idea of false accusations is a red herring. It doesn’t happen nearly enough (or really much at all) to warrant significant consideration in the discussion.

If you were accused of S.A., it means likely you were not a perfect angel and you made some poor decisions that night.

Perhaps not poor enough to land you in jail, but being expelled from school for violating student conduct is a much lower consequence so the burden of proof can be much lower.
 

tato2001

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Accusers almost never gain anything from coming forward, and more likely lose something in the process (at the very least, stress and emotional pain in having to recall the incident and the impact it had on them).

That’s why they are to be believed, and not silenced.

This is a concept that many here struggle with mightily.

The idea of false accusations is a red herring. It doesn’t happen nearly enough (or really much at all) to warrant significant consideration in the discussion.

If you were accused of S.A., it means likely you were not a perfect angel and you made some poor decisions that night.

Perhaps not poor enough to land you in jail, but being expelled from school for violating student conduct is a much lower consequence so the burden of proof can be much lower.
Our country's history is literally littered with people falsely accusing black dudes and society 'just believing them' and you think that's OK, because hey, it doesn't really happen all that often?

I'll direct you to the innocence project so that you may educate yourself. And spoiler: there's lots of stories of eye-witness accounts of rape being established as false.

https://www.innocenceproject.org/all-cases/

The very first case listed is an exoneration of a conviction based on an eye-witness identification by the VICTIM.
 

Gophers_4life

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Our country's history is literally littered with people falsely accusing black dudes
Has literally nothing to do with what’s being discussed here.

You either are genuinely mistaken or are purposefully presenting a specious counter-argument. Regardless, it’s not even close to legitimate.


If you wanted to attempt a good faith, honest discussion, you could attempt to show where there have been many examples of false S.A. accusations (regardless of irrelevant factors like race). There might be more than zero, but the number is low enough to give only minor consideration.
 
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MinnGopher

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Accusers almost never gain anything from coming forward, and more likely lose something in the process (at the very least, stress and emotional pain in having to recall the incident and the impact it had on them).

That’s why they are to be believed, and not silenced.

This is a concept that many here struggle with mightily.

The idea of false accusations is a red herring. It doesn’t happen nearly enough (or really much at all) to warrant significant consideration in the discussion.

If you were accused of S.A., it means likely you were not a perfect angel and you made some poor decisions that night.

Perhaps not poor enough to land you in jail, but being expelled from school for violating student conduct is a much lower consequence so the burden of proof can be much lower.
I wasn't saying or implying that they gain anything from coming forward, so thanks for trying to deflect.

I never said her account wasn't valid anywhere did I? Once again trying to misconstrue the argument.

Its not a concept I struggle mightily with because both have a right to their story and version of events. Where we differ is in the fact that there wasn't evidence to corroborate her account or verify it, and how that affects someone else. Not saying he didn't assault her. What I am saying is if we don't know, why are we punishing him? He was found not guilty, which means you can't prove it did happen and you probably couldn't prove it didn't happen conversely. You seem to be in the camp that believe everyone regardless of facts and detail and railroad someone down the line.

What is the burden of proof? Do you know why he still remains expelled/suspended? What rule did he specifically violate in the code of conduct?

You saying he put himself in a bad spot and this is what he gets is pathetic. You walked down the street and a car ran you over. Don't walk outside? That is a pretty similar statement to what you are saying.

Like I said too its totally f'ed how many sexual assaults happen, it really is mind boggling and sad, but c'mon buddy. Quit blaming a black guy for having sex.
 

MennoSota

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Has literally nothing to do with what’s being discussed here.

You either are genuinely mistaken or are purposefully presenting a specious counter-argument. Regardless, it’s not even close to legitimate.


If you wanted to attempt a good faith, honest discussion, you could attempt to show where there have been many examples of false S.A. accusations (regardless of irrelevant factors like race). There might be more than zero, but the number is low enough to give only minor consideration.
Antoine Winfield and at least four others just a few years back, just to point out false accusations.
A young man who was falsely accused in California, who spent jail time for about 5 years...for a crime the accuser eventually admitted was a lie to get back at the young man. This kid had a D1 football scholarship waiting for him.
So...
 

highwayman

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I wish people would quite responding to, and quoting G4L. It sort of wrecks the work I have done to ignore-list him and his habit of filling up every discussion with dozens of responses. For me, I can't think of another person over the years that has done more to drag down GH discussions so consistently. I've got other people I have ignore-listed but none have had the prolific, consistent ability to infect nearly every discussion, and then revisit every discussion to continue to drag them down over and over again.
I’m in the same situation. Stop quoting the moron.

You can make a comment, and if you use one of the terms “idiot “, “moron”, “asshat”, “fool”, “nitwit”, “dimwit”, “cretin”, “ignoramus”, “twit”, “pinhead”, “simpleton”, “imbecile”, or “nut job” we will know who you are speaking of.
 

tato2001

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Has literally nothing to do with what’s being discussed here.

You either are genuinely mistaken or are purposefully presenting a specious counter-argument. Regardless, it’s not even close to legitimate.


If you wanted to attempt a good faith, honest discussion, you could attempt to show where there have been many examples of false S.A. accusations (regardless of irrelevant factors like race). There might be more than zero, but the number is low enough to give only minor consideration.
The number of false accusations cannot be established for certain, but it IS definitely higher than the 1-4% or whatever number it is trotted out by the folks that use your flawed argument.

Whenever the false accusation numbers are asserted, they are based on cases where prosecutors have investigated, and made a positive determination that the case is false/malicious. This conveniently ignores ALL the cases where people have been falsely convicted (see the innocence project), tried and found not guilty, and the cases where the prosecution simply wasn't sure and didn't prosecute.

In the last two circumstances, there's probably a lot of folks who 'got away with it', but there's certainly a number of those that were false, but not malicious, accusations.

I would be willing to bet a lot of money that those instances of innocent people facing 'good faith' accusations totally dwarf the 'malicious' accusations. So what does that get it up to? 10%? 20%? No one knows, but it is DEFINITELY much higher than the 'this hardly ever happens' crew would have you believe. Given that, no way am I comfortable with a lower burden of proof to ruin people's lives.
 
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