U cuts men's tennis, gymnastics and track and field

MplsGopher

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FWIW, USC has men’s outdoor track (at least they had it in 2019, and I can find nothing about it being cut).
You're correct. Not sure why the STrib said that.

There is one peculiar thing: the PAC conference does not sponsor indoor track, even though all 10 schools that have track teams have both indoor and outdoor teams. So they instead hold conference meets and championship for indoor via the MPSF.
 

gregbrady

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Sure, that's not wrong. But if you start going down that route, how is it "fair" that PJ Fleck makes $4.xxx million per year and has a staff of 10 coaches, while rowing has like two coaches that probably don't even make six figures? How is it "fair" that football flies chartered airbuses, riding private coaches to the airport that roll directly out onto the tarmac, while rowing takes the light rail, stands in line at security like everyone else, and flies commercial? Etc.

I know the obvious and not incorrect answer is "revenue generated". But how does that fit into the legal framework of "proportionality"? Seems iffy to me, if challenged.
PJ just doesn’t have a staff of 10 coaches. Successful D1 football programs have another 20-30 people making a lot behind the 10 official coaches. This is where the programs have gotten out of hand, they have quality control coaches, lots of video coordinators, lots of recruiting coordinators, and the strength & conditioning coaches make big $.
 

So_Money

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Title IX is a joke. Men get punished because revenue spots count as opportunities just the same as non-revenue ones.
 

MplsGopher

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Title IX is a joke. Men get punished because revenue spots count as opportunities just the same as non-revenue ones.
I would support some kind of formal conversation among law makers around these issues.

Back in the day, it was needed. Females wanted to play sports. Not all, of course, but a not insignificant number. And they were given very little, if any, opportunities to do so at (public) schools. Whereas men had relatively many opportunities. Title IX changed that, at all levels. Not just varsity, but club sports, intramural teams, and recreational opportunities.


As the funding for these more and more relies on the truckloads of cash from football, which itself requires a very large roster, the predictable result, as you point out, is a reduction in varsity opportunities for men. Not that women's sports never get reduced or even cut (for example, North Dakota women's hockey).
 

Bob_Loblaw

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While I disagree with gendered sports (if we are going to split sports it should be by more measurable standards. I've seen women in many sports that are way better than some men competing in the same sport but they never get to show it, but I digress.), there have been a few instances of women making it onto teams at the high school level and it's getting more frequent as time goes on. One, if I recall, played in the secondary and * may * have joined a college team.
No you haven't.
 

Taji34

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No you haven't.
I was speaking from personal experience, so by definition I unfortunately have no measurable that I can provide to back my claim. Moreover it was in a sport that can be hard to compare athletes of the same gender in so you could argue either side fairly easily (the classic technique vs raw ability argument). I also never claimed that the women would beat the best men, just that they would beat some men.

And I stand by my statement. Sports should be sectioned by ability not gender. While many sports may see a rough split due to gender, I guarantee there would be sports where mixed competition would become the norm.

For example, while the data is slim and needs to be studied more rigorously, women seem to have an advantage in competitions that rely on endurance as the primary ability: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...e-ultra-athletes-leading-field-women-less-ego

But then again, I suppose you may not consider a lot of those things "sports" since they aren't competed at in High School and College, but rather what? "Athletic competitions"? Where do you draw the line?
 

Otis

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Wow, no Track and Field! That's pretty hard core.

Men's Tennis? Where will the Edina kids go that can't skate?

Gymnastics. Meh,

They are just cutting mens in these sports and not just for the time being but permanently? Wow! Non-revenue sports for sure, but those are pretty mainline B1G sports.

Hopefully, they will pick up competitive broomball or curling.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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I was speaking from personal experience, so by definition I unfortunately have no measurable that I can provide to back my claim. Moreover it was in a sport that can be hard to compare athletes of the same gender in so you could argue either side fairly easily (the classic technique vs raw ability argument). I also never claimed that the women would beat the best men, just that they would beat some men.

And I stand by my statement. Sports should be sectioned by ability not gender. While many sports may see a rough split due to gender, I guarantee there would be sports where mixed competition would become the norm.

For example, while the data is slim and needs to be studied more rigorously, women seem to have an advantage in competitions that rely on endurance as the primary ability: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...e-ultra-athletes-leading-field-women-less-ego

But then again, I suppose you may not consider a lot of those things "sports" since they aren't competed at in High School and College, but rather what? "Athletic competitions"? Where do you draw the line?
To your first point, if HS or college sports were sanctioned by ability and not gender, that' insane. So are you saying a HS basketball team would have mixed gender? A HS swimming? Name a sport in HS that would be mixed gender. Your thoughts would be the end of female high school athletics with only extremely rare instances.

Do you think there are members of any women's team in college basketball that are better than the worst men's player? No. The answer is no. It's really not even close. It's actually unfair to even have this conversation because it's a completely different game. It's like when Serena finally got offended for being asked about beating men - - she is greatest athlete in her sport and she doesn't need validation of that by competing against someone in a different sport.

As far as my definition of a sport - - I was merely going off of what you said. You said "I've seen women in many sports that are way better than some men competing in the same sport but they never get to show it, but I digress.)" - - You've seen these women compete against men in your linked article? No - no you didn't.
 

Taji34

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You've seen these women compete against men in your linked article? No - no you didn't.
I admitted as much in my post actually. I brought in the article as a separate example.

I never suggested teams would be forced to be mixed, just that there would be the opportunity for anyone to play on any team they were athletically qualified for.

Think about it this way: Let say a high school has Men and Women's Varsity and Junior Varsity Basketball,a total of 4 teams. Rather than having separate Men's and Women's tryouts it would be combined. Teams would then become A, B, C, and D and players would be placed according to their tryout. If it so happens that it winds up being 2 men's teams and 2 women's teams so be it, everyone had a chance to try out against everyone. Maybe the top 2 teams wind up split by gender and the bottom 2 are mixed, or maybe they are all mixed.

It's about the opportunity, not the outcome.
 

Word

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I admitted as much in my post actually. I brought in the article as a separate example.

I never suggested teams would be forced to be mixed, just that there would be the opportunity for anyone to play on any team they were athletically qualified for.

Think about it this way: Let say a high school has Men and Women's Varsity and Junior Varsity Basketball,a total of 4 teams. Rather than having separate Men's and Women's tryouts it would be combined. Teams would then become A, B, C, and D and players would be placed according to their tryout. If it so happens that it winds up being 2 men's teams and 2 women's teams so be it, everyone had a chance to try out against everyone. Maybe the top 2 teams wind up split by gender and the bottom 2 are mixed, or maybe they are all mixed.

It's about the opportunity, not the outcome.
Would you be ok with the end of girls HS volleyball as we know it?
 

Taji34

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Would you be ok with the end of girls HS volleyball as we know it?
I assuming you're implying that if this were to happen, since most highschools only have women's volleyball that they would stick with only having 1 team and they'd all suddenly fill up with men? That is a valid worry, by keeping only one team you may actually be restricting opportunity rather than expanding it. I think you are overestimating the popularity of men's volleyball at a HS leve, but maybe you aren't. Do I have an answer for every little hiccup? No, but I think they are all solvable problems with enough thought.

Potentially it comes with the mandate that there are always 2 or more teams. Perhaps something else.
 

Cedar Rapids Gopher

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Ok my daughter played odp. Olympic development project for Iowa. She got she got a scholarship Northern Iowa.
 

erickjohnson11

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To your first point, if HS or college sports were sanctioned by ability and not gender, that' insane. So are you saying a HS basketball team would have mixed gender? A HS swimming? Name a sport in HS that would be mixed gender. Your thoughts would be the end of female high school athletics with only extremely rare instances.

Do you think there are members of any women's team in college basketball that are better than the worst men's player? No. The answer is no. It's really not even close. It's actually unfair to even have this conversation because it's a completely different game. It's like when Serena finally got offended for being asked about beating men - - she is greatest athlete in her sport and she doesn't need validation of that by competing against someone in a different sport.

As far as my definition of a sport - - I was merely going off of what you said. You said "I've seen women in many sports that are way better than some men competing in the same sport but they never get to show it, but I digress.)" - - You've seen these women compete against men in your linked article? No - no you didn't.
One example of skill level difference is the U.S. Women's World Champion soccer team lost to a Boy's U15 team from Texas 5-2. Another is the U.S. Women's hockey team losing 1-0 to Warroad H.S (with no checking) a several years ago. Sorry, but the physical skill level is not close.
 

amk8930

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One example of skill level difference is the U.S. Women's World Champion soccer team lost to a Boy's U15 team from Texas 5-2. Another is the U.S. Women's hockey team losing 1-0 to Warroad H.S (with no checking) a several years ago. Sorry, but the physical skill level is not close.
The soccer example was an informal one and just before other games. Would you want the Gophers to go full on versus a high school team just before a game versus Michigan and Wisconsin?

 

HoustonTXGopher

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Does anyone know how it was decided which sports would be cut and does the racial demographic of athletes have any bearing on the decision. I'm really just curious.
 

MplsGopher

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I admitted as much in my post actually. I brought in the article as a separate example.

I never suggested teams would be forced to be mixed, just that there would be the opportunity for anyone to play on any team they were athletically qualified for.

Think about it this way: Let say a high school has Men and Women's Varsity and Junior Varsity Basketball,a total of 4 teams. Rather than having separate Men's and Women's tryouts it would be combined. Teams would then become A, B, C, and D and players would be placed according to their tryout. If it so happens that it winds up being 2 men's teams and 2 women's teams so be it, everyone had a chance to try out against everyone. Maybe the top 2 teams wind up split by gender and the bottom 2 are mixed, or maybe they are all mixed.

It's about the opportunity, not the outcome.
I appreciate you thinking outside the box and sharing your thoughts.

I just don't think it would work out like you're thinking. I think boys would be far and large those who got to play, depending on how many teams and how many participants. Plus, I doubt most schools would have four teams, then. They'd just have two, varsity in JV in "basketball".


I think there are quite a lot of girls/women who enjoy playing sports ... against other women. They except that, like everything, there is a range in talents/natural abilities within that gender, but overall it is a "fair playing ground" to go against other women.


The more interesting problem, though not too much of a pressing issue because it doesn't happen a lot, is what do you do with transgender women (ie, born with male parts and decide that you want a woman's body) who want to compete against women?
 

MplsGopher

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Would you be ok with the end of girls HS volleyball as we know it?
You know, volleyball is an interesting case to look at, because there is actually quote a lot of coed volleyball that goes on, at the adult rec level.

And this is an outlier I'm sure, but in Alaska they actually sponsor coed ("mixed") volleyball as an official high school sport, for the lowest class in the state. I think the reason is more practical, for their outstate native villages/towns, that don't have much, it just takes a gym, a net, and you can pool the players on both genders to make a team.

But anyway ...
 
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