Trump Wants $850 Billion in Stimulus with an Airlines Bailout

John Galt

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An actual constructive response from S2. Congratulations.

So, you contend that if somehow, magically - which is the condition I set above - the crisis was solved tomorrow, the economy would not recover nearly immediately? Yes, the malls would go back to normal in that case. Yes, commercial real estate would remain essentially the same. I don't believe that working remotely is the most effective form of work for a variety of reasons. Is it feasible to do some work remotely? Absolutely - and yes, flexibility has become a bigger part of the equation. Yet operating remotely can still be cumbersome - even with Zoom and all the other online connection tools. So I disagree it will disappear or drop precipitously.

Even if the crisis is not magically solved, but we do find a feasible solution within the 6 months and we can resume the new normal, I feel like the economy would bust back open. There is a lot of repressed spending right now as people take cover. Those dollars will fly if this thing gets solved.

As for your 2nd paragraph - you are a person that advocated for the $2.2T blank check. So, your comments here ring pretty darned hollow.
I think some areas would roar back pretty quickly, while others will be impaired for a while. The people that are scared sh*tless and hoarding toilet paper aren't likely to go back to eating out anytime soon. Or flying on an airplane. Or sitting in a 50K stadium watching the Gophers in September. A lot of people in the industries hardest hit (airlines, restaurants, retail, etc) will need to repair their savings, pay off debts, etc and probably won't immediately start spending again like they were in February.
 

Section2

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Agree on auto companies.

My point on the new companies not creating jobs that create 100k jobs is just a statement. New companies are not created to have a hearty depth of jobs that pay well. No one designs a company that way. Cheap labor is better than expensive labor. It's just something that's occurring now and will continue to become more prevalent over time. This will continue until markets demand something else or government intercedes somehow which is difficult to do effectively (if possible at all).

Governments failing in the past does not indicate it can better engineer a society. I really doubt the U.S. government is capable of solving this issue either until forced to.

Example, the increased unemployment benefits given to those who are now unemployed. This never would have occurred 30-50 years ago when there was less of a divide on earnings and less dual income households. But we've pushed our nation to the point where 2 incomes is expected and needed and now due to the amount of backlash / poverty our nation will endure from this crisis, even our government decided checks needed to be sent to people.

There is a realization now that we literally have about 40-50% of our population 2 paycheck away from poverty.
I think you are looking at the situation precisely backward. People are paid for their value. If people have no value, they need to work or go to school/train to develop value. No one is designing a company concerned with creating high paying jobs. You go into business to make money. Cheap labor is not better than expensive labor. Some individuals are highly skilled, and some are not. It's up to the individual to decide whether they want a low wage or a high wage, and put in the work to get there. It's not up to companies to start paying them more. It's not up to the government to get them there. It's up to the individual.

The US government isn't capable of solving the issue. It should never be asked to do so. Forced? How?

Yes, you have described the current situation, although it was longer than 30 years ago. How did we get there from here? We've done nothing but build government safety nets. And now we have a dependent population. It really is that simple.
 

GopherJake

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I think some areas would roar back pretty quickly, while others will be impaired for a while. The people that are scared sh*tless and hoarding toilet paper aren't likely to go back to eating out anytime soon. Or flying on an airplane. Or sitting in a 50K stadium watching the Gophers in September. A lot of people in the industries hardest hit (airlines, restaurants, retail, etc) will need to repair their savings, pay off debts, etc and probably won't immediately start spending again like they were in February.
This is a great response. Lots to agree with here. How about the mosh pits? Will those recover? :unsure: (Are they even a thing any more?) Some of it could be looked at as a "correction" maybe? But yeah, I see your point on some things. I hope we get there soon, where we find out. It will be interesting to see the effect on sports and other venues - the ones that depend upon in person attendance, not those strictly floating on a sea of TV revenue. Maybe everything but NFL? Could we could see salaries drop?
 

John Galt

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This is a great response. Lots to agree with here. How about the mosh pits? Will those recover? :unsure: (Are they even a thing any more?) Some of it could be looked at as a "correction" maybe? But yeah, I see your point on some things. I hope we get there soon, where we find out. It will be interesting to see the effect on sports and other venues - the ones that depend upon in person attendance, not those strictly floating on a sea of TV revenue. Maybe everything but NFL? Could we could see salaries drop?
It seems like a watershed moment for sports. Right now everyone is paranoid about being within 6 feet of someone they know or a neighbor. I have a hard time seeing 30,000 people attend a Twins game in June.
 

TruthSeeker

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I think some areas would roar back pretty quickly, while others will be impaired for a while. The people that are scared sh*tless and hoarding toilet paper aren't likely to go back to eating out anytime soon. Or flying on an airplane. Or sitting in a 50K stadium watching the Gophers in September. A lot of people in the industries hardest hit (airlines, restaurants, retail, etc) will need to repair their savings, pay off debts, etc and probably won't immediately start spending again like they were in February.
We won't roar back. Economists are getting more pessimistic by the day that we will. So many will be laid off that we'll lose capacity and demand. We're in for a slow, long slog. It gets worse by the day.
 

GopherJake

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We won't roar back. Economists are getting more pessimistic by the day that we will. So many will be laid off that we'll lose capacity and demand. We're in for a slow, long slog. It gets worse by the day.
I definitely hope you are wrong. But there’s no doubt that every day that passes without an end in sight makes a long slog more realistic. This really sucks. We need something to break our way.
 

TruthSeeker

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I definitely hope you are wrong. But there’s no doubt that every day that passes without an end in sight makes a long slog more realistic. This really sucks. We need something to break our way.
Me too.
 

Cruze

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‘It's a sh-- sandwich': Republicans rage as Florida becomes a nightmare for Trump

Already anxious about Trump’s chances in the nation’s biggest swing state, Republicans now are dealing with thousands of unemployed workers unable to navigate the Florida system to apply for help. And the blowback is directed straight at Trump’s top allies in the state, Gov. Ron DeSantis and Sen. Rick Scott.

The new online system was part of a series of changes designed to limit benefits. The ultimate goal — which it delivered on — was to lower unemployment taxes paid by Florida businesses. A 2011 analysis done by the Florida Legislature estimated that the changes pushed by Scott would save businesses more than $2.3 billion between 2011 and 2020.

Privately, Republicans admit that the $77.9 million system that is now failing Florida workers is doing exactly what Scott designed it to do — lower the state’s reported number of jobless claims after the great recession.

“It’s a sh-- sandwich, and it was designed that way by Scott,” said one DeSantis advisor. “It wasn’t about saving money. It was about making it harder for people to get benefits or keep benefits so that the unemployment numbers were low to give the governor something to brag about.”

Republican Party of Florida chairman Joe Gruters was more succinct: “$77 million? Someone should go to jail over that.” With hundreds of thousands of Floridians out of work, the state’s overwhelmed system is making it nearly impossible for many people to even get in line for benefits.

Most of those who do submit applications won’t qualify for aid, and the benefits that are paid out are among the most meager in the country — a maximum of $275 a week. “This is horrible for people. I don’t want to minimize that,” one DeSantis adviser told POLITICO. “But if we have to look past the crisis, it’s bad for the president and it’s bad for the governor.”

https://www.politico.com/states/flo...florida-becomes-a-nightmare-for-trump-1271172
 

Section2

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This is a great response. Lots to agree with here. How about the mosh pits? Will those recover? :unsure: (Are they even a thing any more?) Some of it could be looked at as a "correction" maybe? But yeah, I see your point on some things. I hope we get there soon, where we find out. It will be interesting to see the effect on sports and other venues - the ones that depend upon in person attendance, not those strictly floating on a sea of TV revenue. Maybe everything but NFL? Could we could see salaries drop?
typically what happens is a huge deflation, followed by hyperinflation. So that's something to look forward to.
 

GopherJake

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typically what happens is a huge deflation, followed by hyperinflation. So that's something to look forward to.
It would be interesting if you would provide an example that doesn't include a 3rd world country as the main backing data.
 

Section2

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It would be interesting if you would provide an example that doesn't include a 3rd world country as the main backing data.
Weimar Germany?

I can understand that you would think a 3rd world country would not be a good example. But if you behave like a 3rd world country, you might get the same results.

massive economic dislocation and severe depression results in a sharp deflation
that's followed by central bank money printing
currency is fiat and backed by nothing
great recipe for inflation
What happens if the world moves off the $ as reserve currency?

At some point with the path we are on, we will lose control. Doesn't have to be Zimbabwe to be devastating.
 

Gopherguy0723

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Weimar Germany?

I can understand that you would think a 3rd world country would not be a good example. But if you behave like a 3rd world country, you might get the same results.

massive economic dislocation and severe depression results in a sharp deflation
that's followed by central bank money printing
currency is fiat and backed by nothing
great recipe for inflation
What happens if the world moves off the $ as reserve currency?

At some point with the path we are on, we will lose control. Doesn't have to be Zimbabwe to be devastating.
Just to challenge you here, this is what you and others said after 2008. We heard right-wingers for years saying runaway inflation was around the corner. It never happened and they couldn't explain why.
 

Section2

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Just to challenge you here, this is what you and others said after 2008. We heard right-wingers for years saying runaway inflation was around the corner. It never happened and they couldn't explain why.
Absolutely an excellent point and fair criticism. In retrospect, I would say that the money printing and inflation only impacted financial assets. The trillions in money printing is mainly sitting on the Fed's balance sheet not circulating in the economy. I've seen various theories as to why, but none have totally satisfied me. Bottom line, there is huge inflation in some things, financial assets of all kinds, housing prices, but really nowhere near runaway inflation to the consumer.
The fed was indeed able to reinflate the bubble and not create inflation. but the bubble is bigger and popping. will they be able to do it again?
 

KillerGopherFan

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Scott is a known crook. It's a real shame that Bill Nelson lost to him. Nelson was a decent guy. Scott is a pure scum bag.
Bill Nelson did absolutely nothing but take up space in Wash DC.

”known crook”? For what?
 

KillerGopherFan

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Medicare fraud.
I’m sure you know the details of the case, maybe your area of law. But to say he’s a “known crook” for leading a corporation that paid a settlement with the government and was not personally charged or convicted is a presumptuous.

And, he’s won election as Governor twice and Senator since the event you’re referring to.
 

Gopherguy0723

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I’m sure you know the details of the case, maybe your area of law. But to say he’s a “known crook” for leading a corporation that paid a settlement with the government and was not personally charged or convicted is a presumptuous.

And, he’s won election as Governor twice and Senator since the event you’re referring to.
He did. He's still crooked.
 

howeda7

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I’m sure you know the details of the case, maybe your area of law. But to say he’s a “known crook” for leading a corporation that paid a settlement with the government and was not personally charged or convicted is a presumptuous.

And, he’s won election as Governor twice and Senator since the event you’re referring to.
So has Bob Menendez. Doesn't mean he's not a sleaze. But I'm sure you'd give him the same benefit of the doubt.
 

TruthSeeker

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Word on the street is hedge funds, law firms, government affairs firms (lobbyists), and other connected businesses are going to raid the hell out of the SBA bailouts. They're getting to the front of the line.

As long as those groups have less than 500 employees, then they qualify. The rich and connected get free money at our expense again. We just bailed out rich assholes. Our firm isn't applying, but I know many that are.
 

Panthadad2

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Just to challenge you here, this is what you and others said after 2008. We heard right-wingers for years saying runaway inflation was around the corner. It never happened and they couldn't explain why.
The anticipated inflation after 08-09 wasn't just the realm of right-wingers. Back then, I worked with some very good (very) left leaning analysts who expected the same, especially after oil prices spiked. Because of our good economy since then and strong military, U.S. treasuries and investments continue to be the safest place for international investment which keeps interest rates down. If our economy and/or political situation (intertwined) falters in relation to other large economies, U.S. treasuries might not be so attractive - then inflation skyrockets. I don't foresee that happening at this point, but it's not impossible.
 
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stocker08

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‘It's a sh-- sandwich': Republicans rage as Florida becomes a nightmare for Trump

Already anxious about Trump’s chances in the nation’s biggest swing state, Republicans now are dealing with thousands of unemployed workers unable to navigate the Florida system to apply for help. And the blowback is directed straight at Trump’s top allies in the state, Gov. Ron DeSantis and Sen. Rick Scott.

The new online system was part of a series of changes designed to limit benefits. The ultimate goal — which it delivered on — was to lower unemployment taxes paid by Florida businesses. A 2011 analysis done by the Florida Legislature estimated that the changes pushed by Scott would save businesses more than $2.3 billion between 2011 and 2020.

Privately, Republicans admit that the $77.9 million system that is now failing Florida workers is doing exactly what Scott designed it to do — lower the state’s reported number of jobless claims after the great recession.

“It’s a sh-- sandwich, and it was designed that way by Scott,” said one DeSantis advisor. “It wasn’t about saving money. It was about making it harder for people to get benefits or keep benefits so that the unemployment numbers were low to give the governor something to brag about.”

Republican Party of Florida chairman Joe Gruters was more succinct: “$77 million? Someone should go to jail over that.” With hundreds of thousands of Floridians out of work, the state’s overwhelmed system is making it nearly impossible for many people to even get in line for benefits.

Most of those who do submit applications won’t qualify for aid, and the benefits that are paid out are among the most meager in the country — a maximum of $275 a week. “This is horrible for people. I don’t want to minimize that,” one DeSantis adviser told POLITICO. “But if we have to look past the crisis, it’s bad for the president and it’s bad for the governor.”

https://www.politico.com/states/flo...florida-becomes-a-nightmare-for-trump-1271172
Florida turns back to blue in November.
 

Face The Facts

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If things are looking rough, more Trump bucks will come in October.
 

Section2

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At the very least, now it's a race. It depends on how much of this they can pin on dark skin tan suit guy.
They should have voted for the meth addict who loves gay hookers. Surely he would have solved their problems.
 

MplsGopher

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They should have voted for the meth addict who loves gay hookers.
I feel like, pretty much moving forward from 2016, voting will be much more about voting for a "team" rather than a candidate. Not an absolute, of course. And of course, the wonkier the candidate, the less that "rule" will stay in effect.
 

GoodasGold

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I’m sure you know the details of the case, maybe your area of law. But to say he’s a “known crook” for leading a corporation that paid a settlement with the government and was not personally charged or convicted is a presumptuous.

And, he’s won election as Governor twice and Senator since the event you’re referring to.
Further proof of criminality.
 
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