Tim McCormick gives his rankings of Big Ten coaches (Bottom Four: Collins, Pitino, Chambers and Underwood)

BleedGopher

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per Josh:

On Richard Pitino:

He replaced Tubby Smith who was replaced after six years. I looked up their records, they're almost identical. If Tubby got fired and Richard Pitino has the same record, that is not good. A real critical thing to watch, Chet Holmgren is a Top-five player in the country, same have him as number one. Tubby Smith didn't keep his best players in-state, Richard Pitino has to be able to get Chet Holmgren or he could be in trouble as well.


Go Gophers!!
 

manderson1984

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per Josh:

On Richard Pitino:

He replaced Tubby Smith who was replaced after six years. I looked up their records, they're almost identical. If Tubby got fired and Richard Pitino has the same record, that is not good. A real critical thing to watch, Chet Holmgren is a Top-five player in the country, same have him as number one. Tubby Smith didn't keep his best players in-state, Richard Pitino has to be able to get Chet Holmgren or he could be in trouble as well.


Go Gophers!!
This list is tough. Can get on board with 1-4 after that gross
 

Biggsohnasty

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I'd have Hoiberg, Underwood and Painter higher, and Turgeon lower but that could be because Turgeon annoys me. Everyone is going to have their different rankings, but I didn't find that list to be awful.

If ranking them in tiers
Tier 1:
Izzo
Painter
Holtmann
Gard

Tier 2:
Hoiberg
Howard
Underwood
Turgeon

Tier 3:
Peikell
McCaffery
Miller (maybe tier 4)

Tier 4 (Hotseat):
Pitino
Collins
Chambers
 

Cayman

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per Josh:

On Richard Pitino:

He replaced Tubby Smith who was replaced after six years. I looked up their records, they're almost identical. If Tubby got fired and Richard Pitino has the same record, that is not good. A real critical thing to watch, Chet Holmgren is a Top-five player in the country, same have him as number one. Tubby Smith didn't keep his best players in-state, Richard Pitino has to be able to get Chet Holmgren or he could be in trouble as well.


Go Gophers!!
The first part of this sentence just isn’t really based in fact. I still don’t really get where the idea that Tubby was bad at in state recruiting comes from. He got just about every in state player he offered. Best argument you could make against him is that Jones, Vaughn, and Travis, who were all still uncommitted juniors at the time Tubby was fired, would not have come here even if he were retained. And then you can play Captain Hindsight and argue he should have passed on Royce White and taken Nate Wolters or Mike Muscala instead.

And failing to land Chet Holmgren is not gonna spell the end for Pitino. If not getting Garcia, Suggs, Nnaji, Hurt, Jones, Trent etc. didn’t get him fired, then missing out on one more 5 star isn’t going to be a big deal.
 

obobo55

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Link to discussion from last off-season:


I had it like this

Painter
Izzo
Beilien
Gard
Holtman
Hoiberg
Pikiell
Pitino
Chambers
Underwood
Miller
Collins
Turgeon
McCaffrey

Still too hard to judge Howard or Hoiberg. Slight downgrade on Painter for subpar year & program turbulence. Turgeon actually had a pretty good season, this upcoming year will show me more.

1 Izzo
2 Gard
3 Painter
4 Pikiell
5 Holtman
6 Chambers
7 Turgeon
8 Howard
9 Pitino
10 Underwood
11 Miller
12 Hoiberg
13 Collins
14 McCaffrey
 

gophereric30

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I'd have Hoiberg, Underwood and Painter higher, and Turgeon lower but that could be because Turgeon annoys me. Everyone is going to have their different rankings, but I didn't find that list to be awful.

If ranking them in tiers
Tier 1:
Izzo
Painter
Holtmann
Gard

Tier 2:
Hoiberg
Howard
Underwood
Turgeon

Tier 3:
Peikell
McCaffery
Miller (maybe tier 4)

Tier 4 (Hotseat):
Pitino
Collins
Chambers
Wow howard basically does nothing with his team and is now second tier? Guy hasnt proven more than I have lol no way Pitino is tier 4. Not impressive big ten record, but basically has accomplished more than the 2nd and 3rd tier guys. If you dont think so than I may be wrong, but not far off! What have tier 2 and 3 guys accomplished? Not much!
 

gophereric30

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I do think steve piekell is a good coach, but 3-15, 3-15, 7-13, 11-9 in big ten and now hes an awesome coach ranked ahead of pitino come on!
 

Biggsohnasty

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Those are fair points. It's all subjective at this point. I guess (and I'm not exactly sure the exact percentages) it's in some part based on accomplishments, some part based on projection going forward (especially for Howard who most feel will succeed or Pikell who looks to have perhaps turned a corner in the last two years).

It's going to be impossible to come to a consensus and even if we did, it would accomplish nothing. It's similar to the argument over which conference is the best. It's just good fodder for a slow day (or multiple months).
 

builtbadgers

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Izzo
Gard
Painter
Holtman
Miller-elite 8 at 34 years old, just getting his guys now.
Underwood
Turgeon
Hoiberg
Fran
Can not do Howard after only one year.
Scary 11-14 that we even think about that.
 

skiumah1

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Wow howard basically does nothing with his team and is now second tier? Guy hasnt proven more than I have lol no way Pitino is tier 4. Not impressive big ten record, but basically has accomplished more than the 2nd and 3rd tier guys. If you dont think so than I may be wrong, but not far off! What have tier 2 and 3 guys accomplished? Not much!
I agree Juwan Howard has done nothing in my book to warrant being a good head coach yet, and I thought year 1 was a little underwhelming for them.

This list can vary year-to-year possibly 2-14. Izzo is the only clear 1 at this point.
 

builtbadgers

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I agree Juwan Howard has done nothing in my book to warrant being a good head coach yet, and I thought year 1 was a little underwhelming for them.

This list can vary year-to-year possibly 2-14. Izzo is the only clear 1 at this point.
Does not vary that knee jerk to me. You do not go from 14 to 2 in one year for having one fantastic season. There is a giant gap between those top 3-4 guys and the bottom three.
 

skiumah1

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Does not vary that knee jerk to me. You do not go from 14 to 2 in one year for having one fantastic season. There is a giant gap between those top 3-4 guys and the bottom three.
Maybe a slight exaggeration but Izzo, Painter, and maybe Turgeon are the only 3 who've won consistently over time in the Big 10.

It would be interesting to re-visit in 5 years and see how the list looks.

The only guy I might rule out from cracking the upper half would be Collins due to the degree of difficulty at Northwestern. All 13 others have a shot to do something IMO.
 

builtbadgers

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Maybe a slight exaggeration but Izzo, Painter, and maybe Turgeon are the only 3 who've won consistently over time in the Big 10.

It would be interesting to re-visit in 5 years and see how the list looks.

The only guy I might rule out from cracking the upper half would be Collins due to the degree of difficulty at Northwestern. All 13 others have a shot to do something IMO.
Greg Gard has a very impressive record. Archie Miller has done a great deal at the D1 level and now has his guys.
 

skiumah1

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Greg Gard has a very impressive record. Archie Miller has done a great deal at the D1 level and now has his guys.
Archie has yet to make the tournament with IU.

I would argue Gard hasn't proven much yet with his own set of recruits. 2 Sweet 16s with Bo's guys in Years 1 and 2. I understand they tied for Big Ten Title this past year and finished 4th last year which is impressive. I'm waiting on NCAA tournament success with his own guys. Missed tournament in his 3rd year and got blown out by Oregon Round 1 year 4. Maybe they woulda had success this past year, maybe not. They're very highly ranked coming into this season so another chance for a breakthrough.
 
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builtbadgers

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Archie has yet to make the tournament with IU.

I would argue Gard hasn't proven much yet with his own set of recruits. 2 Sweet 16s with Bo's guys in Years 1 and 2. I understand they tied for Big Ten Title this past year and finished 4th last year which is impressive. I'm waiting on NCAA tournament success with his own guys. Missed tournament in his 3rd year and got blown out by Oregon Round 1 year 4. Maybe they woulda had success this year, maybe not. They're very highly ranked coming into this year so another chance for a breakthrough.
Archie won 11 more games in the conference his 1 st 3 years than our guy, now he has his guys . Plus there is no way to ignore what he got done at Dayton and getting to the elite 8 at 34 years old. Gard recruited Bo's players, Ryan rarely hit the road. He is fastest to 59 wins and now is loaded up. Nationally, from people in the game there is a huge gap from Gard to those guys from 6-14. Are you thinking that Pitino will finish ahead of Gard more often than not ? Just curious. I actually cheer for us to beat UW but Greg is miles ahead as a coach.
 

skiumah1

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Archie won 11 more games in the conference his 1 st 3 years than our guy, now he has his guys . Plus there is no way to ignore what he got done at Dayton and getting to the elite 8 at 34 years old. Gard recruited Bo's players, Ryan rarely hit the road. He is fastest to 59 wins and now is loaded up. Nationally, from people in the game there is a huge gap from Gard to those guys from 6-14. Are you thinking that Pitino will finish ahead of Gard more often than not ? Just curious. I actually cheer for us to beat UW but Greg is miles ahead as a coach.
No I won't say that Pitino is up there. He's got a lot of work to do. I think my point is that I think pretty much all of these guys are capable. Some more so than others, but capable. Pikiell could have Rutgers consistently around 20+, possibly Chambers too. I still think Pitino could be getting better, and this year should speak volumes about it whichever way it goes.

I have heard Gard has always done the recruiting but I assume Bo more instilled that toughness and grit, ball control and burn offense. The style is similar now with Gard, but it's not quite what Bo had. Not saying that's good or bad. My point also being it's only been 5 years with Gard and there's been ups and downs. Yes probably more ups but I still think the jury is out on just how good Gard is as a head coach consistently year after year. Time will tell. That's just MO.
 

builtbadgers

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No I won't say that Pitino is up there. He's got a lot of work to do. I think my point is that I think pretty much all of these guys are capable. Some more so than others, but capable. Pikiell could have Rutgers consistently around 20+, possibly Chambers too. I still think Pitino could be getting better, and this year should speak volumes about it whichever way it goes.

I have heard Gard has always done the recruiting but I assume Bo more instilled that toughness and grit, ball control and burn offense. The style is similar now with Gard, but it's not quite what Bo had. Not saying that's good or bad. My point also being it's only been 5 years with Gard and there's been ups and downs. Yes probably more ups but I still think the jury is out on just how good Gard is as a head coach consistently year after year. Time will tell. That's just MO.
Thanks for the thoughtful exchange.
 

obobo55

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I tend to agree that there is not a lot of separation. I like several of the guys that I have rated lower on my list. Miller is a fine coach just maybe over his head at Indiana. Hoiberg too, though I was pretty embarrassed in his year 1. Underwood impressed me by completely changing his defensive approach.
 

builtbadgers

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I tend to agree that there is not a lot of separation. I like several of the guys that I have rated lower on my list. Miller is a fine coach just maybe over his head at Indiana. Hoiberg too, though I was pretty embarrassed in his year 1. Underwood impressed me by completely changing his defensive approach.
How would you explain the difference in how the guys at the top consistently have efficient teams and the guys at the bottom rarely do. It explains such a large gap in success or lack of it. I find the worst coaches regularly play bad basketball. By that i mean taking poor shots, turning the ball over and playing mediocre defense.
 

60's Guy

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How would you explain the difference in how the guys at the top consistently have efficient teams and the guys at the bottom rarely do. It explains such a large gap in success or lack of it. I find the worst coaches regularly play bad basketball. By that i mean taking poor shots, turning the ball over and playing mediocre defense.
I'd agree with your thinking overall but I think there are exceptions. Only one I can speak about without more thought is Pitino. To me: Richard has demonstrated he can win when he has some players.
His rosters have been bad for many reasons...it's part of coaching, yes. If if if we get our two waivers and Carr returns and we stay reasonably healthy and eligible, I'm very confident we finish top 4 in the conference. Richard can coach if he has players and I believe he does have players if the 3 guys play and/or anybody plays because of covid. If he doesn't finish top 4 with those guys...I was very wrong about his ability to coach...(when he has 8 decent guys available).
I really hope we get to find out. Excited for this team if everybody is on board and covid lets us play.
 

builtbadgers

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I'd agree with your thinking overall but I think there are exceptions. Only one I can speak about without more thought is Pitino. To me: Richard has demonstrated he can win when he has some players.
His rosters have been bad for many reasons...it's part of coaching, yes. If if if we get our two waivers and Carr returns and we stay reasonably healthy and eligible, I'm very confident we finish top 4 in the conference. Richard can coach if he has players and I believe he does have players if the 3 guys play and/or anybody plays because of covid. If he doesn't finish top 4 with those guys...I was very wrong about his ability to coach...(when he has 8 decent guys available).
I really hope we get to find out. Excited for this team if everybody is on board and covid lets us play.
Great post. I am all in on winning with this roster. Top 4.
 

golf

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I'd agree with your thinking overall but I think there are exceptions. Only one I can speak about without more thought is Pitino. To me: Richard has demonstrated he can win when he has some players.
His rosters have been bad for many reasons...it's part of coaching, yes. If if if we get our two waivers and Carr returns and we stay reasonably healthy and eligible, I'm very confident we finish top 4 in the conference. Richard can coach if he has players and I believe he does have players if the 3 guys play and/or anybody plays because of covid. If he doesn't finish top 4 with those guys...I was very wrong about his ability to coach...(when he has 8 decent guys available).
I really hope we get to find out. Excited for this team if everybody is on board and covid lets us play.

100%. Preach!
 

obobo55

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How would you explain the difference in how the guys at the top consistently have efficient teams and the guys at the bottom rarely do. It explains such a large gap in success or lack of it. I find the worst coaches regularly play bad basketball. By that i mean taking poor shots, turning the ball over and playing mediocre defense.
Well, there is a reason I consistently have Fran at the bottom...?

But yes, the best (top 3) are the ones with highly efficient teams. The entire league (top 12) was pretty good on T-rank and Kenpom last year. I just look at the number of really close wins that Turgeon and Maryland had vs the close losses that Pitino and the Gophers had and think it was just a few possessions that made a difference between #1 and #12. Yes, a good coach makes a difference in those close games but the margin is really small. A missed FT or a poor turnover can and does make a huge difference in many games.

My Badgers snuck away with a couple of wins that I thought near impossible. They also blew a couple that I thought they should have won. Take 4 possessions and change them one way or the other and they could have been sole champs at 16-4 or finished in 4th at 12-8.
 

builtbadgers

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Well, there is a reason I consistently have Fran at the bottom...?

But yes, the best (top 3) are the ones with highly efficient teams. The entire league (top 12) was pretty good on T-rank and Kenpom last year. I just look at the number of really close wins that Turgeon and Maryland had vs the close losses that Pitino and the Gophers had and think it was just a few possessions that made a difference between #1 and #12. Yes, a good coach makes a difference in those close games but the margin is really small. A missed FT or a poor turnover can and does make a huge difference in many games.

My Badgers snuck away with a couple of wins that I thought near impossible. They also blew a couple that I thought they should have won. Take 4 possessions and change them one way or the other and they could have been sole champs at 16-4 or finished in 4th at 12-8.
Was not pointing at one season but the whole body of work. Plus in any one season like last year the Gophers did win some close games and the painful close late season losses at home were the result of really poor execution down the stretch and several times where great defense would have won the game. Generally speaking if your terrible in your conference defensively you will have a poor conference record. Look how UVA was 234th in offense last year after being top 3 the year before but because they are so well drilled defensively that they managed to be 15-5. Look at your Badgers, huge stops defensively down the stretch.
 

gophereric30

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Maybe a slight exaggeration but Izzo, Painter, and maybe Turgeon are the only 3 who've won consistently over time in the Big 10.

It would be interesting to re-visit in 5 years and see how the list looks.

The only guy I might rule out from cracking the upper half would be Collins due to the degree of difficulty at Northwestern. All 13 others have a shot to do something IMO.
Still think you have to throw gard in there too. Guy has won 12 games in conference 4 out of 5 years. I do think that it's hard to say 5 through 11 whose better. Seems many of the big coaches still have alot to prove.
 

obobo55

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Was not pointing at one season but the whole body of work. Plus in any one season like last year the Gophers did win some close games and the painful close late season losses at home were the result of really poor execution down the stretch and several times where great defense would have won the game. Generally speaking if your terrible in your conference defensively you will have a poor conference record. Look how UVA was 234th in offense last year after being top 3 the year before but because they are so well drilled defensively that they managed to be 15-5. Look at your Badgers, huge stops defensively down the stretch.
Agreed. That is why the top 3 are where they are, all have a defense-first philosophy. Also why I put stock in Underwood's defensive changes and why I respect Pikiell and his approach at Rutgers.

It is tough to judge a coach fairly when there are far different strata that programs exist within. NW, Neb, PSU, Rutgers have challenges that need to be overcome. Most of the other 10 are the highest profile programs in their respective recruiting area. My hope is that over time, those schools can become that for their own region, I see no reason for that to be impossible. I want the B1G to be the dominant basketball league yearly and hope each and every game is a brutal contest. I think the conference was close to this before adding PSU minus NW & UW in the 80's & early 90's.
 

Bad Gopher

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That's a dang tough league when Brad Underwood is in your bottom 4. ?

You DO need an extraordinary, upper crust coach who's excellent at everything in order to compete for championships in this league. That's why we've been trying to find one now for 20-plus years.
 

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Couple of thoughts:

1. This league has a lot of really good coaches. Makes sense, it's the best basketball league in the country.
2. For me, there does (currently) seem to be quite a bit of separation between the top 4-5 and the rest.
My tier 1 would be: Izzo, Painter, Turgeon, Gard, Holtmann.

Need more data but look to be very good: Howard, Miller

Work to do but have shown promise: Pitino, Underwood, Pikiell, Chambers, Hoiberg

I can't even rate Fran because I personally can't stand the guy. Collins definitely is at a disadvantage with NW but I think he is a good coach.
 

builtbadgers

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Couple of thoughts:

1. This league has a lot of really good coaches. Makes sense, it's the best basketball league in the country.
2. For me, there does (currently) seem to be quite a bit of separation between the top 4-5 and the rest.
My tier 1 would be: Izzo, Painter, Turgeon, Gard, Holtmann.

Need more data but look to be very good: Howard, Miller

Work to do but have shown promise: Pitino, Underwood, Pikiell, Chambers, Hoiberg

I can't even rate Fran because I personally can't stand the guy. Collins definitely is at a disadvantage with NW but I think he is a good coach.
The ACC has more great coaches, HALL OF FAME coaches and championships. Hard to say at the bottom as so many coaches in both conference have never won a thing.
 

howeda7

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If ranking them in tiers
Tier 1:
Izzo

Tier 2:
Painter
Underwood
Turgeon
Hoiberg

Tier 3:
Holtmann
Gard
Peikell
McCaffery
Miller

Tier 4:
Pitino
Collins
Chambers
Howard (too early to have him any higher)
 
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