The Scheme on HBO

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
Also, why is Dawkins scum? You haven't watched the show and know nothing about his life or who he is.

He's the opposite of scum. He wants to help poor kids and poor families in poor communities, like the one he grew up in.

It's not illegal to give someone money, in the hopes that they'll pick you later on to represent them if they decide to turn pro. It's against NCAA rules, yes. But so what?? Who gives a crap what the NCAA says and thinks??

Amatuerism was made up, from the very beginning. The concept was conjured out of thin air, in England a hundred years ago, so that rich kids wouldn't have to compete in sports against poor factory workers. End of story. There isn't a single fiber of morality that supports the notion as superior.
Actually have watched the show a knew who he was way before the show. There are more kids and families that steer clear of his ilk than pay attention. He is interested in players that can make him money, that is a small number of players. I have been a critic of Richard Pitino but cheating is not one of them. Do you even know of what players already get above board ? I am fine with abolishing the whole thing. Only let athletes into school that actually qualify, no scholarships outside of academics, no athletic track . Or go all out and pay them but it will not be the schools. Even after they get their share from the NCAA there are few that make money, VERY FEW. If you allow outside money than the programs that cheat now will be the same ones. Your way out of touch if you think there are not clean coaches and programs. I have worked within several over the years and they fly clean 100 %. There are coaches that cheat and there are coaches that do not. Just like there are people that cheat on taxes and those that do not. Dawkins measures success by money. That is fine for him. Most people with real money and millions without measure success in far different ways. He did not even mention the kids that he never paid, the kids he cost their elgibility. The broken promises to parents and uncles. The blatant bias told one side in crude language without critical thinking .
 

Just Gopher It!!

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
679
Reaction score
290
Points
63
Money talks.

Sean Miller isn't going to be fired and Arizona isn't going to be hit with any serious penalties.

He's been paying players for a long time, like Deandre Ayton.

Kerwin won't get that kind of money, but if he wants to get paid now, at all, he obviously needs to go with a school like Arizona, rather than the U of MN where he won't get jack.

I know all about the Ayton nonsense,

My comment was hopefully Kerwin/family aren't of that ilk and he'll stay home to Don the Maroon & Gold.

Besides I also like he rocks an old school fro.

I'm an optimist by nature.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
Actually have watched the show a knew who he was way before the show. There are more kids and families that steer clear of his ilk than pay attention. He is interested in players that can make him money, that is a small number of players. I have been a critic of Richard Pitino but cheating is not one of them. Do you even know of what players already get above board ? I am fine with abolishing the whole thing. Only let athletes into school that actually qualify, no scholarships outside of academics, no athletic track . Or go all out and pay them but it will not be the schools. Even after they get their share from the NCAA there are few that make money, VERY FEW. If you allow outside money than the programs that cheat now will be the same ones. Your way out of touch if you think there are not clean coaches and programs. I have worked within several over the years and they fly clean 100 %. There are coaches that cheat and there are coaches that do not. Just like there are people that cheat on taxes and those that do not. Dawkins measures success by money. That is fine for him. Most people with real money and millions without measure success in far different ways. He did not even mention the kids that he never paid, the kids he cost their elgibility. The broken promises to parents and uncles. The blatant bias told one side in crude language without critical thinking .
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

Louisville was (and is) a standout college basketball team because Adidas paid top players and their families to go there. End of story. Rick Pitino is, at a minimum, complicit in that. Probably was active in it. The FBI investigation was targeting Pitino as the top catch. They planned to use Dawkings to reel that in, and he wouldn't cooperate. Zero chance than Rich Pitino isn't/hasn't been aware of that type of scheme for a long time.

If it worked so well at a little nothing school like Louisville, I'd be very surprised if Rich had never tried to do the same thing here. If he really never has, good for him. But quite obvious that is a factor in why we can't (most of the time) get the players we need to compete in the Big Ten.


Yes you're correct, Dawkins ultimately was investing in these kids in the hopes that it would pay out for himself. But he did want to help them. I doubt anything he did himself cost a player eligibility. If everyone at the top is doing it, someone has to get caught now and then, to keep up the semblance of enforcement. You have to know as a player/player family, there will always be a risk when you take the "early" money, that you could get caught and lose eligibility. Most still do it anyway. And most don't get caught.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
I know all about the Ayton nonsense, My comment was hopefully Kerwin/family aren't of that ilk and he'll stay home to Don the Maroon & Gold. Besides I like he rocks an old school fro.

I'm an optimist by nature.
I am a pessimist by nature.

I know nothing about the Walton's financial situation. But frankly, if someone is offering you "early" cash to go to a warm, big time basketball school, to play on a major winning team for a couple years before turning pro, I absolutely would advise them to take the money. Why wouldn't you? Everyone else is.
 

Just Gopher It!!

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
679
Reaction score
290
Points
63
I am a pessimist by nature.

I know nothing about the Walton's financial situation. But frankly, if someone is offering you "early" cash to go to a warm, big time basketball school, to play on a major winning team for a couple years before turning pro, I absolutely would advise them to take the money. Why wouldn't you? Everyone else is.

For meit doesn't fit with my Morales and my religious beliefs,

As someone who has made some questionable choices when i was younger, as many of us have, i can tell you from my my own personal experience that the justification of "all the cool kids are doing it/everyone else is", doesn't hold water at the end if the day.

We all have to live with this choices we make in life each bad choice makes the next one that much easier to justify. That's why it's called the slippliery slope and not the tacky slope.
 
Last edited:

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
I am a pessimist by nature.

I know nothing about the Walton's financial situation. But frankly, if someone is offering you "early" cash to go to a warm, big time basketball school, to play on a major winning team for a couple years before turning pro, I absolutely would advise them to take the money. Why wouldn't you? Everyone else is.
You keep saying everyone ! Simply not true. We have had several top programs recently that won championships with players that no one would pay for and kids that would not take it. They are educated on the consequences,they have stable and educated families. These guys prey on families that have their hands out. The coaches i know stop recruiting kids if anyone so much as asks for a sandwich much less money, cars, jobs. It is about who you want to be, what kind of program you want to be. You can win and beat the cheaters by playing clean, that may in fact the only way to beat them. People that cheat actually have not won a thing. There was a notorious cheater at a club a play at and he would turn a 6 into a 5 or a pocket drop into a found ball. Just to win a 6inch first flight trophy ! I asked him why does he not just turn the 6 into a 3 since he knew and we all knew he did it and he said that he just wanted to win ! He was forced to resign his membership. Who won ? He has a few 1st flight titles but we have a new honest member. I get the frustration about the lack of punishment toward the cheaters. Believe me, i wanted UNC to get the death penalty. Will Wade should be fired, Same with Miller. In the meantime i choose to support those that play it clean.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
For meit doesn't fit with my Morales and my religious beliefs,

As someone who has made some questionable choices when i was younger, as many of us have, i can tell you from my my own personal experience that the justification of "all the cool kids are doing it/everyone else is", doesn't hold water at the end if the day.

We all have to live with this choices we make in life each bad choice makes the next one that much easier to justify. That's why it's called the slippliery slope and not the tacky slope.
Great post. In our family we were raised on ethics. Mistakes were expected because we are human but it was also expected that as humans we would learn from them. No lying, stealing or cheating. Some folks have always thought that whatever they stole was fine if they were not caught.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
You keep saying everyone ! Simply not true. We have had several top programs recently that won championships with players that no one would pay for and kids that would not take it. They are educated on the consequences,they have stable and educated families. These guys prey on families that have their hands out. The coaches i know stop recruiting kids if anyone so much as asks for a sandwich much less money, cars, jobs. It is about who you want to be, what kind of program you want to be. You can win and beat the cheaters by playing clean, that may in fact the only way to beat them. People that cheat actually have not won a thing. There was a notorious cheater at a club a play at and he would turn a 6 into a 5 or a pocket drop into a found ball. Just to win a 6inch first flight trophy ! I asked him why does he not just turn the 6 into a 3 since he knew and we all knew he did it and he said that he just wanted to win ! He was forced to resign his membership. Who won ? He has a few 1st flight titles but we have a new honest member. I get the frustration about the lack of punishment toward the cheaters. Believe me, i wanted UNC to get the death penalty. Will Wade should be fired, Same with Miller. In the meantime i choose to support those that play it clean.
Ok. I believe you. There are some players/families who actively turn away money. And there are some coaches who won't touch a kid who wants money. Fine. I don't know if I believe, at the top levels of the P6, that this "right way" is more prevalent than the "wrong way", but I believe you that there are some.

The big problem I have with it is: amateurism is fake. It has always been fake, since the very beginning of it. It was conjured out of thin air, to give a "reason" to exclude factory workers from beating rich kids at sports.

An entire association evolved around that fake concept, the NCAA, and now it is the only major sporting association in the world that exists under that model. You don't think that's a bit suspicious? That it doesn't work that way, anywhere else in the world?

It is not morally superior. Sorry, it is not.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
Great post. In our family we were raised on ethics. Mistakes were expected because we are human but it was also expected that as humans we would learn from them. No lying, stealing or cheating. Some folks have always thought that whatever they stole was fine if they were not caught.
It's only cheating, because the fake NCAA exists, with their fake rules.

Any other gifted 17 year old, in anywhere else in the world, is expected to try to become a professional athlete in whatever pro leagues that country has, straight away.
 

Just Gopher It!!

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
679
Reaction score
290
Points
63
It's only cheating, because the fake NCAA exists, with their fake rules.

Any other gifted 17 year old, in anywhere else in the world, is expected to try to become a professional athlete in whatever pro leagues that country has, straight away.

Honest question.

Why are you a college sports fan and post frequently on here if you hate the system the Gophers play in and the association - NCAA they belong to?

Seems counterintuitive to me,unless you are a son of a factory worker, who still has a giant chip on his shoulder -i couldn't resist the last sentence :).
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
It's only cheating, because the fake NCAA exists, with their fake rules.

Any other gifted 17 year old, in anywhere else in the world, is expected to try to become a professional athlete in whatever pro leagues that country has, straight away.
Tell the professional leagues to let all kids try out when they want too. Colleges are not forcing kids to enroll in school. Basketball players are being gifted a half million dollar scholarship !
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
Tell the professional leagues to let all kids try out when they want too. Colleges are not forcing kids to enroll in school. Basketball players are being gifted a half million dollar scholarship !
One and dones, at most, get a value of $100k or around there, if it's a private school. More like $40k at a public school.

But then of course, they choose college because they're getting paid real money under the table.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
Why are you a college sports fan and post frequently on here if you hate the system the Gophers play in and the association - NCAA they belong to?
What does that have to do with being a fan of Minnesota Gopher sports teams, and cheering them on?
 

Just Gopher It!!

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
679
Reaction score
290
Points
63
What does that have to do with being a fan of Minnesota Gopher sports teams, and cheering them on?
Because they are part of a system which you despise passionately and think is corrupt; if you hate it as much as you espouse then wouldn't it simply be easier to not engage at all?
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
23,949
Reaction score
5,749
Points
113
Because they are part of a system which you despise passionately and think is corrupt; if you hate it as much as you espouse then wouldn't it simply be easier to not engage at all?
That has nothing to do with cheering on the Minnesota Gophers teams. Which is what I do, and why I'm here.

I'd still cheer them on if they dropped out of the NCAA.
 

Just Gopher It!!

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 26, 2020
Messages
679
Reaction score
290
Points
63
That has nothing to do with cheering on the Minnesota Gophers teams. Which is what I do, and why I'm here.

I'd still cheer them on if they dropped out of the NCAA.

Okay.

I thought you might have some issues we could work through together.

I was once employed by The Pyschic Friends Network.
 

skiumah1

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
1,191
Reaction score
900
Points
113
With Arizona and Creighton in Walton's finalists, it does make me back come back to this show. I have no reason to think Walton isn't a good kid or planning to accept money but there's the connection.

My real thought is do we think that Arizona and Creighton / LSU continue to offer money? I can't believe they would. That would take some big kahunas or some real strong relationships with NCAA insiders.
 

LakerFan

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2014
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
265
Points
83
Sean Miller and Will Wade are on tape, talking about how much money they offered recruits, back in 2017 I believe.

They have not been fired.

They won't be fired. Arizona and LSU will not be sanctioned with any kind of serious penalty.

I bet they get double the penalties they dished out to North Carolina.
 

kix4kix

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
262
Reaction score
107
Points
43
Tell the professional leagues to let all kids try out when they want too. Colleges are not forcing kids to enroll in school. Basketball players are being gifted a half million dollar scholarship !
LOL, gifted.

NCAA is a joke and it's naive people like you that allow this nonsense to continue.
 
Last edited:

kix4kix

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
262
Reaction score
107
Points
43
Paying players might lessen some of the temptation on the part of the athletes, but it won't eliminate or even reduce the amount of cheating by win-at-all-costs coaches and programs.

At the end of the day, for any sports association to be viable and have a reasonably level playing field, there needs to be rules, and there needs to be enforcement of the rules.
Although enacting tough policy is a good reason to take precaution it is not enough of a reason to throw out a good idea. Players should be paid for their likeness. period. It's already here. California Law puts the clock at 3 years to figure this nonsense out. NCAA made $1B in revenue last year. With a B.

Game changer for me was when the final four was here last year, made me realize how wrong it is not to pay these players.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
Although enacting tough policy is a good reason to take precaution it is not enough of a reason to throw out a good idea. Players should be paid for their likeness. period. It's already here. California Law puts the clock at 3 years to figure this nonsense out. NCAA made $1B in revenue last year. With a B.

Game changer for me was when the final four was here last year, made me realize how wrong it is not to pay these players.
You do know that the NCAA pays the Universities the money right ? And most of the member schools break even or lose money. Do the research. At the U there is very little left after expenses. Who will play the players ? How much ? Naive ?
 

jovs

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
3,677
Reaction score
210
Points
63
You do know that the NCAA pays the Universities the money right ? And most of the member schools break even or lose money. Do the research. At the U there is very little left after expenses. Who will play the players ? How much ? Naive ?

Doesn't this really raise a question about the value of college athletics, you've got huge sums of money brought in by the revenue sports to support the non revenue sports that benefit a tiny segment of the student population. Why? Seems like a huge waist of limited resources.
 

kix4kix

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
262
Reaction score
107
Points
43
You do know that the NCAA pays the Universities the money right ? And most of the member schools break even or lose money. Do the research. At the U there is very little left after expenses. Who will play the players ? How much ? Naive ?
LOL, stubborn aint you. I don't need to do Any research. Lmao @ the U breaking even.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
He’s dishonest in the $500k number too.
Research what it costs to have a football or basketball player on scholarship counting tuition, meals, housing, travel,insurance, stipend, training.equipment. Take in 130 million or so, spend a 129 million. It does not just benefit a tiny segment. Tens of million like the entertainment, source of pride for alumni, social gatherings are a component of mental health, greater gifts to endowments with relationships and success, more money for research, more endowed scholarships, Attract more gifted students. The 500,000 per is a number that according to the star tribune article broke it down. Paying for likeness is a different thing altogether. Great by me if a athlete can get money for being in a video game or swelling tee shirts but the money will not come from the schools. If fans want players to accept cash from boosters or businesses or are ok with it that is fine by me. Just know your favorite team has zero chance of out spending the competition. You hould see how happy and grateful these kids are to get their scholarship ! Huge celebrations, tears, rejoicing. Instead of hurling insults or mocking someone why not try presenting your own numbers or doing the research for actual.
 

kix4kix

Active member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
262
Reaction score
107
Points
43
As much as I would love to waste my time. The NCAA made $1 Billion in revenues last year. In wealth transfer alone doing rough math that equates to roughly ~16Million to each of the P5 Schools (~65)

Don't even get me started on TV money, and ticket sales for individual conferences.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,338
Reaction score
3,119
Points
113
As much as I would love to waste my time. The NCAA made $1 Billion in revenues last year. In wealth transfer alone doing rough math that equates to roughly ~16Million to each of the P5 Schools (~65)

Don't even get me started on TV money, and ticket sales for individual conferences.
Look at the athletic budget . That already includes every source of revenue.
 

GameDay

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Messages
2,561
Reaction score
239
Points
63
Like others, I'm guilty of being critical of Pitino's in-state recruiting, but in his defense I think one thing we need to consider is potentially the disadvantage he's at when it comes to trying to land some of these top kids against programs/agents that just come in with a bunch of cash. It's just too hard to compete against blue bloods and agents connected to programs that pay.

Bob Huggins in a recent Jeff Goodman Podcast
Bob Huggins, Frank Martin, and Andy Kennedy were talking with Jeff Goodman on his most recent podcast and they had mentioned that they all run their programs cleanly and they would like to punch coaches in the face who come in a "drop a bag" on a recruit after they've spent 9+ hard months recruiting the kid the clean way. I'll let some of you listen for yourselves but they bring this up around the 22:30 mark.


Candid Coaches CBS Article

"Agents and shoe companies are influencing the decisions of elite prospects more than ever. Most coaches insist about 80% of the nations top 10 players, in any given year, are already tied to an agent before they ever even step on a college campus."

One anonymous coach said: "When some coaches get involved with prospects, it's not worth it to recruit them any longer because certain coaches will cheat or pull out all the stops to get a recruit. It's a broken system."

Bottom line... it's very feasible to think we've lost a handful of in-state guys due to factors way beyond Pitino's ability to recruit.
 
Top Bottom