The Price of Reopening the Economy: Tens of Thousands of American Lives

bga1

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You think that offsets the losses of cancelling elective procedures?
They already don't have a choice to cancel electives. That was put on them. Now with the situation they had, they were given an incentive to mark patients covid. And in some cases they are doing just that. In flu season the death total is always a big swag because there is the issue of whether to call it flu or pneumonia and a lot are rule pneumonia. Now a lot of the "which is it?" decisions are easily made- it's covid..
 

bottlebass

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Honest question for all of you here. It appears like we are going to spend 4 trillion in taxpayer money on these lock downs. That's if the economy opens up rapidly with little further spending commitments.
The initial lock downs were justifiable because China lied to us and we didn't know what we were dealing with. Initial estimates, such as the Imperial College scam, led us astray into thinking that this was BOTH highly contagious and deadly in the neighborhood of perhaps a 4% mortality rate with millions in the US dying. Shortly after the lock downs started we knew.

The question:

4 trillion dollars is about $12,000 for every man, woman and child in America. Would you be willing to write a check for $48,000 in order to NOT go to work and keep the economy going?
Effectively you did it, but you wrote the check out of your children's and grand children's accounts. Would you be willing to do that considering that 80% of the people who are dying in the US are old AND ill and most of them would have died anyway in a year? Or would you have begged for a different strategy that kept the whole economy open and asked for personal responsibility and cleanliness with an emphasis on sheltering and even fire walling the elderly?

Just a question....

We have the science community, the media and agenda driven politicians to blame.......and ourselves for being gullible enough to follow them.
You promised me Trump would balance the budget by now...
 

bottlebass

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They already don't have a choice to cancel electives. That was put on them. Now with the situation they had, they were given an incentive to mark patients covid. And in some cases they are doing just that. In flu season the death total is always a big swag because there is the issue of whether to call it flu or pneumonia and a lot are rule pneumonia. Now a lot of the "which is it?" decisions are easily made- it's covid..
YOu are turning into CRG with your conspiracy theories. Sure there are probably some that are labeled covid that could be labeled somethign else. But it goes both ways, there are many people who died from covid that were labeled something else. It's most likely a wash. Move on to your next fake talking point.
 

bga1

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YOu are turning into CRG with your conspiracy theories. Sure there are probably some that are labeled covid that could be labeled somethign else. But it goes both ways, there are many people who died from covid that were labeled something else. It's most likely a wash. Move on to your next fake talking point.
Thank you for admitting you were wrong. Good for you. It was weak but it's a start for you.
 

bottlebass

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Thank you for admitting you were wrong. Good for you. It was weak but it's a start for you.
What was I wrong about?

Will you admit you are wrong and this isn't a giant issue like you are making it?
 

GophersInIowa

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They already don't have a choice to cancel electives. That was put on them. Now with the situation they had, they were given an incentive to mark patients covid. And in some cases they are doing just that. In flu season the death total is always a big swag because there is the issue of whether to call it flu or pneumonia and a lot are rule pneumonia. Now a lot of the "which is it?" decisions are easily made- it's covid..
Just because something can happen doesn't mean it is widespread. I'm sure it's happening to some degree but who knows how much. We do know that people that actually determine the cause of death have little incentive to lie or favor the decision one way or another.
 

Section2

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There is some truth to that IMO. So many people have resorted to social media for their information and that is even worse.
there's more variety on social media. Total garbage, biased crap, hack pieces, and really good and informative people. MSM is mainly biased crap and hack pieces IMO :0
 

bga1

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Just because something can happen doesn't mean it is widespread. I'm sure it's happening to some degree but who knows how much. We do know that people that actually determine the cause of death have little incentive to lie or favor the decision one way or another.
If the hospital administrators say to do it- it's getting done. As I stated, with regular flu there is always a tug of war between flu and pneumonia being the cause. Here they are just ruling both columns covid in most cases.
 

GophersInIowa

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there's more variety on social media. Total garbage, biased crap, hack pieces, and really good and informative people. MSM is mainly biased crap and hack pieces IMO :0
I think the media is more biased for sure. I still feel like you can get a lot of good information from the MSM if you kinda pick through it. I can watch the news and hear about the new issues with children, yet not panic based on how it is portrayed.

You're right, social media has a lot of good info but it also has a lot of straight trash. It's hard for some to distinguish between the two.
 

GophersInIowa

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If the hospital administrators say to do it- it's getting done. As I stated, with regular flu there is always a tug of war between flu and pneumonia being the cause. Here they are just ruling both columns covid in most cases.
You must not think much of doctors then. Do you have any evidence of the bolded?
 

howeda7

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You must not think much of doctors then. Do you have any evidence of the bolded?
I've asked him a few times if he thinks hospitals are committing massive fraud. He clearly does but won't say so.
 

bottlebass

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If the hospital administrators say to do it- it's getting done. As I stated, with regular flu there is always a tug of war between flu and pneumonia being the cause. Here they are just ruling both columns covid in most cases.
Not everyone is dishonest like you.
 

howeda7

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Not everyone is dishonest like you.
They would lie to make a nickel and assume everyone else would too. Most of the people deciding cause of death do not have a stake in the profitiability of the hospital. And even if they did, most have better ethics than those accusing them.
 

Veritas

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For many that works but there are exceptions. For instance, my daughter goes to an in-home daycare. The daycare provider has a high-functioning autistic son that has asthma.
We should lock down the economy over issues like that or should we just let people make their own decisions as to how to handle such issues?
 

diehard

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Cuomo says it’s ‘shocking’ most new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who had been staying home

Most new Covid-19 hospitalizations in New York state are from people who were staying home and not venturing much outside, a “shocking” finding, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Wednesday.

The preliminary data was from 100 New York hospitals involving about 1,000 patients, Cuomo said at his daily briefing.

It shows that 66% of new admissions were from people who had largely been sheltering at home. The next highest source of admissions was from nursing homes, 18%.

Cuomo said nearly 84% of the hospitalized cases were people who were not commuting to work through car services, personal cars, public transit or walking. He said a majority of those people were either retired or unemployed. Overall, some 73% of the admissions were people over age 51.

He said the information shows that those who are hospitalized are predominantly from the downstate area in or around New York City, are not working or traveling and are not essential employees. He also said a majority of the cases in New York City are minorities, with nearly half being African American or Hispanic.


It's almost like this virus is most easily transmitted between people who live together. This also continues to show the same pattern of demographics who are most at risk. What a 'shock'.
Poor guy. He wiped out the assisted living home population by sending active covid patients to them. That may not be blood on his hands, but it does have the stench of death to it.
 

GophersInIowa

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We should lock down the economy over issues like that or should we just let people make their own decisions as to how to handle such issues?
I didn't say one way or the other. I'm just pointing out that it isn't nearly as simple as some are making it out to be.
 

kellyleeks

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Here’s what I don’t understand and would appreciate help on: why is it that the people who most aggressively go after climate deniers are the same people who seem to be most adamant about extending the lockdown? If you believe the science behind climate change, then why wouldn’t you believe the science as it relates to Covid-19 (e.g. transmission, likelihood of severe effects/death, etc.).
 

Bad Gopher

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Honest question for all of you here. It appears like we are going to spend 4 trillion in taxpayer money on these lock downs. That's if the economy opens up rapidly with little further spending commitments.
The initial lock downs were justifiable because China lied to us and we didn't know what we were dealing with. Initial estimates, such as the Imperial College scam, led us astray into thinking that this was BOTH highly contagious and deadly in the neighborhood of perhaps a 4% mortality rate with millions in the US dying. Shortly after the lock downs started we knew.

The question:

4 trillion dollars is about $12,000 for every man, woman and child in America. Would you be willing to write a check for $48,000 in order to NOT go to work and keep the economy going?
Effectively you did it, but you wrote the check out of your children's and grand children's accounts. Would you be willing to do that considering that 80% of the people who are dying in the US are old AND ill and most of them would have died anyway in a year? Or would you have begged for a different strategy that kept the whole economy open and asked for personal responsibility and cleanliness with an emphasis on sheltering and even fire walling the elderly?

Just a question....

We have the science community, the media and agenda driven politicians to blame.......and ourselves for being gullible enough to follow them.
How much would this "cost" without the "lockdowns?"
 

Bad Gopher

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Here’s what I don’t understand and would appreciate help on: why is it that the people who most aggressively go after climate deniers are the same people who seem to be most adamant about extending the lockdown? If you believe the science behind climate change, then why wouldn’t you believe the science as it relates to Covid-19 (e.g. transmission, likelihood of severe effects/death, etc.).
It's simple risk/reward. It's a different equation for those two very different things.
 

bga1

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How much would this "cost" without the "lockdowns?"
Far less and probably with the same death count. Flattening the curve only slows the inevitable....It was done to keep below capacity. Now we know that was never a threat.
 

Spoofin

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You must not think much of doctors then. Do you have any evidence of the bolded?
I don’t know how wide-spread it is, and I respect doctors greatly, but in every business out there people look to profit. I doubt very many, if any, are dishonest and list COVID if they know it isn’t COVID. However, I think the argument here is that the COD is either A or B, a pick’em, and A reimburses the hospital $12K, while B reimburses the hospital $36K. Let’s not be naive.
 

Veritas

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How much would this "cost" without the "lockdowns?"
A small faction to actively protect the old and weak who are unable to defend themselves. All the rest should have been left to do the right things without any lockdown. No payments, no bailouts, no anything. Just do what Sweden did.
 

OldBob53

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Stay off the beaches normal people! There are curative microbes in the sand, but those must be reserved for the wealthy.
 

GophersInIowa

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I don’t know how wide-spread it is, and I respect doctors greatly, but in every business out there people look to profit. I doubt very many, if any, are dishonest and list COVID if they know it isn’t COVID. However, I think the argument here is that the COD is either A or B, a pick’em, and A reimburses the hospital $12K, while B reimburses the hospital $36K. Let’s not be naive.
Maybe. But how often does that happen? I mean we could be talking about 500 of those type of situations. People are acting like they know it's happening a lot and that the covid numbers are largely inflated.
 

Wally

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I think it's overblown, I have been wearing a mask and isolating. Most people who die are at or above the average age of death. Here is a pork plant with 400 infected workers and basically ALL of them asymptomatic. We need to open up and only isolate high risk individuals. They will only be safe when the rest of us reach herd immunity.
 
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