The Price of Reopening the Economy: Tens of Thousands of American Lives

Face The Facts

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Depends what "open" and "closed" mean to you.

I can leave my house any time I want, drive to and walk into Target, Home Depot, and Costco during their normal store hours, right now.

Suspect on May 18 or June 1, a host of other businesses will also be allowed to open so long as appropriate distances between people inside can be assured.
Open means, opening schools and youth athletic events and other non-concert, non-10's of thousands, type gatherings.
 

Face The Facts

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He has terrific ideas though! He's very creative and he's thinking about it! The models though.....
He's got that jackass Osterholm in his ear.
Osterholm wants to make sure this pandemic lasts as long as possible.
The more months of COVID discussion, the better off it is for Osterholm.

People like Osterholm (and Fauci), can't ever really say "Now it's safe."
There whole career is built on avoiding risk.
Not managing risk.
Avoiding risk.
 

bga1

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He's got that jackass Osterholm in his ear.
Osterholm wants to make sure this pandemic lasts as long as possible.
The more months of COVID discussion, the better off it is for Osterholm.

People like Osterholm (and Fauci), can't ever really say "Now it's safe."
There whole career is built on avoiding risk.
Not managing risk.
Avoiding risk.
Scientists uber alles.
 

JimmyJamesMD

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He's got that jackass Osterholm in his ear.
Osterholm wants to make sure this pandemic lasts as long as possible.
The more months of COVID discussion, the better off it is for Osterholm.

People like Osterholm (and Fauci), can't ever really say "Now it's safe."
There whole career is built on avoiding risk.
Not managing risk.
Avoiding risk.
Thats a great way of putting it. "They seek to avoid risk, not manage it."
 

MplsGopher

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Open means, opening schools and youth athletic events and other non-concert, non-10's of thousands, type gatherings.
I interpret this as a very arbitrary definition, which you defined in order to maximize the time you have to attack Walz and others like him doing a slow, measured reopening.

Doubt you’ll be able to logically support it in a meaningful way.
 

MplsGopher

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He's got that jackass Osterholm in his ear.
Osterholm wants to make sure this pandemic lasts as long as possible.

The more months of COVID discussion, the better off it is for Osterholm.

People like Osterholm (and Fauci), can't ever really say "Now it's safe."
There whole career is built on avoiding risk.
Not managing risk.
Avoiding risk.
:rolleyes:

Yeah we get it, you were supposed to be the next director of CIDRAP, but Osterholm beat you out. Now you’re mired down in some med school dept, maybe biostatistics? Or maybe you left altogether for St Thomas or elsewhere.
 

Face The Facts

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I interpret this as a very arbitrary definition, which you defined in order to maximize the time you have to attack Walz and others like him doing a slow, measured reopening.

Doubt you’ll be able to logically support it in a meaningful way.
Not sure what you are trying to say, let alone decipher whether you are being sarcastic or not.

Walz seems to believe we are still headed for 60,000 deaths in Minnesota despite MN doing one of the better jobs of controlling it.
Why we will have more deaths than Wuhan, China and Italy combined still confuses me.
 

MplsGopher

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Not sure what you are trying to say, let alone decipher whether you are being sarcastic or not.

Walz seems to believe we are still headed for 60,000 deaths in Minnesota despite MN doing one of the better jobs of controlling it.
Why we will have more deaths than Wuhan, China and Italy combined still confuses me.
Nonsense. He would shut all places, in such case.

Many are open and more will be opening at limited capacity. He wants to open as much of the economy as can be safely, reasonably, scientific intelligently done.
 

KillerGopherFan

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He's got that jackass Osterholm in his ear.
Osterholm wants to make sure this pandemic lasts as long as possible.
The more months of COVID discussion, the better off it is for Osterholm.

People like Osterholm (and Fauci), can't ever really say "Now it's safe."
There whole career is built on avoiding risk.
Not managing risk.
Avoiding risk.
The last thing Fauci wants is to error on the side of being too aggressive trying to find the sweet spot of re-opening society. He fears going for the sweet spot.

Fauci doesn’t want to go down in history being the guy that caused more virus deaths by being to optimistic. He knows that it’s much harder to pin economic failure deaths on him.
 

Face The Facts

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The last thing Fauci wants is to error on the side of being too aggressive trying to find the sweet spot of re-opening society. He fears going for the sweet spot.

Fauci doesn’t want to go down in history being the guy that caused more virus deaths by being to optimistic. He knows that it’s much harder to pin economic failure deaths on him.
That's kind of the point.
If we leave the decision in the hands of Fauci, Osterholm, etc., it's in their core being to be risk averse.
 

MplsGopher

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That's kind of the point.
If we leave the decision in the hands of Fauci, Osterholm, etc., it's in their core being to be risk averse.
Hence why they only are - and only claim to be - advisors, as you know. :rolleyes:

Exact same with news media, frankly. You need to take a deep breath and loosen your death grip.
 

bga1

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That's kind of the point.
If we leave the decision in the hands of Fauci, Osterholm, etc., it's in their core being to be risk averse.
Not only is it to their core...it is the ONLY thing they are held accountable for. It is a matter of making themselves heroes and also of self protection. Make a wrong model? Well it was just a model. Close down the economy? We didn't do it, we just presented a scenario.
 

Spoofin

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That's kind of the point.
If we leave the decision in the hands of Fauci, Osterholm, etc., it's in their core being to be risk averse.
Osterholm is in a league of his own. I have been saying since day 1 that he is all about getting the spotlight -- it is embarrassing that he is associated with the "U".
 

JimmyJamesMD

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Osterholm is in a league of his own. I have been saying since day 1 that he is all about getting the spotlight -- it is embarrassing that he is associated with the "U".
It got his sorry ass on CNN
 

howeda7

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Open means, opening schools and youth athletic events and other non-concert, non-10's of thousands, type gatherings.
What if he says we re-open but no gatherings of more than 10 people? Or 50?
 

howeda7

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Depends what "open" and "closed" mean to you.

I can leave my house any time I want, drive to and walk into Target, Home Depot, and Costco during their normal store hours, right now.

Suspect on May 18 or June 1, a host of other businesses will also be allowed to open so long as appropriate distances between people inside can be assured.
yeah, but do you feel "liberated" while you do? No.
 

MplsGopher

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yeah, but do you feel "liberated" while you do? No.
I never do, unless I have my assault rifle, fully loaded with a full, spare clip taped to the loaded magazine, slung over my shoulder.

In the pool, in church, at a concert, on a roller coaster, all the same.
 

Face The Facts

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What if he says we re-open but no gatherings of more than 10 people? Or 50?
I'm not a capital marcher.
I think Walz needs a few new advisors to help paint the full picture.
Not just rely on the experts predicting the 60k deaths, then the 20k deaths between now and August 2021.

Who are the economic and mental health experts Walz is working with? Why are they not on TV giving models?
 

Cruze

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Not sure what you are trying to say, let alone decipher whether you are being sarcastic or not.

Walz seems to believe we are still headed for 60,000 deaths in Minnesota despite MN doing one of the better jobs of controlling it.

Why we will have more deaths than Wuhan, China and Italy combined still confuses me.
Walz is not the person to ask. You need to ask the scientists and public health experts at the U, the Mayo Clinic, and around the state and country who are providing him the pandemic science he is relying on to make his decisions.
 

Section2

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Thats a great way of putting it. "They seek to avoid risk, not manage it."
not even avoid it. eliminate it entirely. Our society in my lifetime has drastically changed its approach to safety, and it is leading to tyranny. the safety obsession is hard to combat. maybe wearing a bike helmet isn't a bid deal? But I would rather have a free society with a 1 percent chance something bad might happen, than a totalitarian society with the illusion that risk has dropped to .001 percent. We can all live in a bubble and mostly eliminate risk, but it wouldnt' be a life worth living.
 

Cruze

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I'm not a capital marcher.
I think Walz needs a few new advisors to help paint the full picture.
Not just rely on the experts predicting the 60k deaths, then the 20k deaths between now and August 2021.

Who are the economic and mental health experts Walz is working with? Why are they not on TV giving models?
We know Mike Osterholm is on Walz's team of advisors. Shoot him an email and I am sure he will be happy to enlighten you about the science of pandemics. He likes to remind us that he has been studying them for 35 years. Walz knows shit about pandemics but he knows and talks to people who are world-wide experts in the field.
 
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Cruze

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not even avoid it. eliminate it entirely. Our society in my lifetime has drastically changed its approach to safety, and it is leading to tyranny. the safety obsession is hard to combat. maybe wearing a bike helmet isn't a bid deal? But I would rather have a free society with a 1 percent chance something bad might happen, than a totalitarian society with the illusion that risk has dropped to .001 percent. We can all live in a bubble and mostly eliminate risk, but it wouldnt' be a life worth living.
Get over it. The days are over when all the marginalized people in the world (old people, young people, minorities, and people with special needs) are going to be ignored by Americans with a conscience who want to do the right thing by them because it's the right thing to do.

Minnesota's shutdown has been nowhere near as lengthy or strict as the shutdowns in many other states and countries around the world. Consider yourself lucky to be living exactly where you are.
 

Face The Facts

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not even avoid it. eliminate it entirely. Our society in my lifetime has drastically changed its approach to safety, and it is leading to tyranny. the safety obsession is hard to combat. maybe wearing a bike helmet isn't a bid deal? But I would rather have a free society with a 1 percent chance something bad might happen, than a totalitarian society with the illusion that risk has dropped to .001 percent. We can all live in a bubble and mostly eliminate risk, but it wouldnt' be a life worth living.
I only agree with you about half the time, but the health scare and the on-going march to remove anything risky is obsessive and is hard to stop.

We've seen it with cigarettes, drinking age, seat belt laws, car seats, etc. Many of this are good, but it also has brought with the inability to leave your kids in a car when you run into a store for a few minutes or kids ability to go out on their own at younger ages to play unsupervised.

The latest areas are around food safety and the parents who purchase organic foods.
 

Section2

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Get over it. The days are over when all the marginalized people in the world (old people, young people, minorities, and people with special needs) are going to be ignored by Americans with a conscience who want to do the right thing by them because it's the right thing to do.

Minnesota's shutdown has been nowhere near as lengthy or strict as the shutdowns in many other states and countries around the world. Consider yourself lucky to be living exactly where you are.
No, I'm not going to get over it. You get over it. America is a free country. If you don't like freedom, go live somewhere else.
 

Section2

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I only agree with you about half the time, but the health scare and the on-going march to remove anything risky is obsessive and is hard to stop.

We've seen it with cigarettes, drinking age, seat belt laws, car seats, etc. Many of this are good, but it also has brought with the inability to leave your kids in a car when you run into a store for a few minutes or kids ability to go out on their own at younger ages to play unsupervised.

The latest areas are around food safety and the parents who purchase organic foods.
It's not leading to a healthy or happy population. It's leading to a nation filled with anxiety and on drugs.
 

Face The Facts

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It's not leading to a healthy or happy population. It's leading to a nation filled with anxiety and on drugs.
I think what happens is we think we are making ourselves safer due to the rules or products that help make us safe. But at the same time, it forces us to use judgement that coincides with these ideas and products. It makes many feel like they are going to be judged should something go wrong.
 

Section2

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I think what happens is we think we are making ourselves safer due to the rules or products that help make us safe. But at the same time, it forces us to use judgement that coincides with these ideas and products. It makes many feel like they are going to be judged should something go wrong.
For parents for sure.
 

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Eat drink and be merry fools, for tomorrow you die.
 
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