Should a parent not have empathy?

Gopherguy0723

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Seeking asylum and being denied and deported isn't a crime. In fact, crossing the border illegally isn't a crime it is a tort offense.

Moreover, in this country you can reunify with your family after release from incarceration and also have your family visit you. You can even screw your wife in some instances!

Trump is taking non-criminals and dividing the familes by choice. Additionally, adults are processed more quickly and by different reasoning tham children. That means that adults are deported and processed quickly whereas children take months or years.

Once the children are deported, they may not have a home or family. Our government isn't able to track down where their parents live.

This is a disaster that we created
 

justthefacts

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As I said, that wasn’t made clear in the chart and I didn’t have access to the article. I found the data on the CATO website. You’ll notice that that chart clearly states: “per 100,000 of each subpopulation”. The chart that JTF used didn’t say that at all, but it was apparently in the article that I didn’t have access to.

I was wrong, but without the article to clarify the poorly worded chart that JTFs used, there was no way for me to know.

https://www.cato.org/publications/i...f/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant
You could, of course, assume that professional statisticians are looking at the data in the logical and sensible way, as opposed to the ludicrous way that you'd hoped they'd used. Assuming their methodology was so obviously and fundamentally suspect is just silly.

Just for fun:

http://www.nber.org/papers/w13229.pdf

(emphasis added)

The perception that immigration adversely affects crime rates led to legislation in the 1990s that particularly
increased punishment of criminal aliens. In fact, immigrants have much lower institutionalization (incarceration)
rates than the native born - on the order of one-fifth the rate of natives. More recently arrived immigrants
have the lowest relative incarceration rates, and this difference increased from 1980 to 2000. We examine
whether the improvement in immigrants' relative incarceration rates over the last three decades is linked
to increased deportation, immigrant self-selection, or deterrence. Our evidence suggests that deportation
does not drive the results. Rather, the process of migration selects individuals who either have lower
criminal propensities or are more responsive to deterrent effects than the average native
. Immigrants
who were already in the country reduced their relative institutionalization probability over the decades;
and the newly arrived immigrants in the 1980s and 1990s seem to be particularly unlikely to be involved
in criminal activity, consistent with increasingly positive selection along this dimension.
Recognizing that immigrants commit less crime than native-born people just brings into stark relief that Trump's repeated descriptions of MS-13's horrible crimes are the worst kind of fear-mongering. His generalization of those crimes to the broader population is tantamount to blood libel.

Even the completely biased CIS only estimated: "more than 500 cases of MS-13 gang members arrested nationwide since 2012." 100 cases per year!

https://cis.org/Report/MS13-Resurgence-Immigration-Enforcement-Needed-Take-Back-Our-Streets

When's the last time you heard Trump talk about a Crip? Heck, they're not even close to a majority of the gang members arrested by ICE! MS-13 is basically just a brand that Trump employs for the purposes of fear in the same way McDonald's is used as a brand to represent cheeseburgers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ic-will-make-it-worse/?utm_term=.d0061e6bb0b5

Things are different in the United States. According to Justice Department estimates, MS-13 is a small gang, compared with the Bloods, Crips and Almighty Latin King Nation. The estimated 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the United States account for less than 1 percent of the estimated 1.4 million total gang members in the country. According to CNN, 104 of the 1,300 gang members arrested during an Immigration and Customs Enforcement sweep last May — 8 percent — were linked to MS-13.

And the gang did not come from south of the border. MS-13 is as American-made as Google — or, for that matter, as Trump. MS-13 was founded in Los Angeles in the 1980s by children of Salvadoran immigrants who fled a brutal civil war, a war which was substantially funded by the United States. The early members were teenagers who hung out on street corners and bonded around reefer and rock concerts, not unlike thousands of other kids living in Southern California’s underprivileged communities.
 

GopherJake

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I made my assumptions clear on the first post. My assumption was as the JTF chart showed, 100,000 population, when in fact, it was 100,000 for each subpopulation.
You were immediately told by 6 different people that you were wrong, but you kept firing back. Take a break.
 

bga1

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More proof that this whole story is a cooked up lie/political crisis:https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl




ByJOSEPH CURL
@JOSEPHCURL
June 20, 2018

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel, former chief of staff to President Barack Obama

In a news story published Tuesday by The Hill headlined "Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis," the writer included this paragraph: "Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump."

"Keep the focus on Trump."

Wired Sources
@WiredSources
JUST IN: Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer says he would rather 'keep the focus on Trump' than support bill which keeps illegal immigrant families united at the border

Schumer, who has bashed Trump at every turn and has repeatedly declared that Congress — not the president — should take this action or that, now suddenly wants to defer to Trump. He claims Congress simply can't solve the problem, but Trump, with the stroke of a pen, can.
 

GopherJake

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In fact, crossing the border illegally isn't a crime it is a tort offense.
Google disagrees with you:

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2...crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence.html

Improper Entry Is a Crime
To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:

  • Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers;
  • Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
  • Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.
 

KillerGopherFan

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You were immediately told by 6 different people that you were wrong, but you kept firing back. Take a break.
Whatever. Had one of them said that the article makes that clear, it would have definitely clarified that for me.
 

Gopherguy0723

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Google disagrees with you:

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2...crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence.html

Improper Entry Is a Crime
To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:

  • Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers;
  • Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
  • Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.
Asylum seeking certainly isn't a crime, which is most germane to the topic. Other instances aren't as well.

But yes, those examples are. So specifically, sometimes it is a crime.
 

justthefacts

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The Federal Bureau of Prisons say immigrants represent 20% of all Federal prisoners:

https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_citizenship.jsp
These numbers include the people being held for illegally crossing the border.

If you include state numbers for both the number of non-citizens and citizens, the number is under 6%: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p16.pdf And that number STILL includes people whose only crime was crossing illegally.

The number of non-citizens in the US is 7%: https://www.kff.org/other/state-ind...0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"}
 

MennoSota

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I came out of there feeling like the country does truly need a saving once in a while, and this feels like one of those times.
The problem is that not just one side feels that the country needs saving. At present there is so many faux moral arguments being made strictly from point of view that there seems to be no objective moral truth to fight for. Everyone is running around claiming moral high ground without ever defining what morality means.
Right now, both Dems and Repubs claim they are fighting to save the USA. I distrust both groups.
 

justthefacts

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More proof that this whole story is a cooked up lie/political crisis:https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl




ByJOSEPH CURL
@JOSEPHCURL
June 20, 2018

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel, former chief of staff to President Barack Obama

In a news story published Tuesday by The Hill headlined "Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis," the writer included this paragraph: "Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump."

"Keep the focus on Trump."

Wired Sources
@WiredSources
JUST IN: Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer says he would rather 'keep the focus on Trump' than support bill which keeps illegal immigrant families united at the border

Schumer, who has bashed Trump at every turn and has repeatedly declared that Congress — not the president — should take this action or that, now suddenly wants to defer to Trump. He claims Congress simply can't solve the problem, but Trump, with the stroke of a pen, can.
IF (I repeat, IF) the GOP comes up with a clean bill, then Schumer should support it. Of course, there is no bill today, so who knows. I do think it's ridiculous that it should come to that, because Sessions could undo his zero-tolerance policy tomorrow. But still, Schumer should support a clean bill. McConnell can just call his bluff and take up the bill to which 49 Democratic Senators have signed-on.

It's pretty ridiculous, though, to then conclude that the whole story is a "cooked up lie" [sic] given that Trump has repeatedly said it's a problem, and Miller, Kelly, and Sessions are proud of it. It's happening. We can argue about WHY, but it's happening and it's preposterous to pretend otherwise.
 

justthefacts

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KillerGopherFan

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The problem is that not just one side feels that the country needs saving. At present there is so many faux moral arguments being made strictly from point of view that there seems to be no objective moral truth to fight for. Everyone is running around claiming moral high ground without ever defining what morality means.
Right now, both Dems and Repubs claim they are fighting to save the USA. I distrust both groups.
I don’t think the MSM is helping to raise the level of this conversation. As I watch GOP Senators discussing this calmly and rationally at a televised meeting, they are talking sense. I’m not saying they aren’t considering political issues and public perception, but I think these Senators are motivated to get a solution, and very soon.

I hope Schumer and the Dems will participate in that for the benefit of the children and everyone.
 

GopherJake

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Asylum seeking certainly isn't a crime, which is most germane to the topic. Other instances aren't as well.

But yes, those examples are. So specifically, sometimes it is a crime.
I appreciate the precision in most of your posts. I'm sure your mistake was accidental. That said, it's disappointing to see you use the KFC "whatever" response.

In fact, crossing the border illegally isn't a crime it is a tort offense.
You stated this directly - it wasn't inferred by me.
 

KillerGopherFan

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These numbers include the people being held for illegally crossing the border.

If you include state numbers for both the number of non-citizens and citizens, the number is under 6%: https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p16.pdf And that number STILL includes people whose only crime was crossing illegally.

The number of non-citizens in the US is 7%: https://www.kff.org/other/state-ind...0&sortModel={"colId":"Location","sort":"asc"}
Thanks for not being a dick while making your points.
 

justthefacts

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I don’t think the MSM is helping to raise the level of this conversation. As I watch GOP Senators discussing this calmly and rationally at a televised meeting, they are talking sense. I’m not saying they aren’t considering political issues and public perception, but I think these Senators are motivated to get a solution, and very soon.

I hope Schumer and the Dems will participate in that for the benefit of the children and everyone.
I'm just hoping you're including Conservative media (and the President) in your list of people you don't think are helping to raise the level of the conversation.

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/392968-fox-friends-host-many-migrant-children-turn-into-ms-13
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-again-targets-pelosi-over-ms-13-n876866
 

howeda7

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Seeking asylum and being denied and deported isn't a crime. In fact, crossing the border illegally isn't a crime it is a tort offense.

Moreover, in this country you can reunify with your family after release from incarceration and also have your family visit you. You can even screw your wife in some instances!

Trump is taking non-criminals and dividing the familes by choice. Additionally, adults are processed more quickly and by different reasoning tham children. That means that adults are deported and processed quickly whereas children take months or years.

Once the children are deported, they may not have a home or family. Our government isn't able to track down where their parents live.

This is a disaster that we created
+1
 

Gopherguy0723

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I appreciate the precision in most of your posts. I'm sure your mistake was accidental. That said, it's disappointing to see you use the KFC "whatever" response.

You stated this directly - it wasn't inferred by me.
I meant to insert a qualifier but deleted after modifying my first draft of a response. I was too broad in my initial statement.
 

KillerGopherFan

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I'm just hoping you're including Conservative media (and the President) in your list of people you don't think are helping to raise the level of the conversation.

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/392968-fox-friends-host-many-migrant-children-turn-into-ms-13
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-again-targets-pelosi-over-ms-13-n876866
Anytime show hosts express an opinion, there’s a chance they could be right, wrong, misinformed, misleading, etc. That goes for all. The question is a matter of degree. Misinformation is and should be called out. But the MSM includes numerous TV outlets, including ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, and CNN. That’s a lot more to cover than one channel, FoxNews.

Yesterday, it was reported the disproportionate about of time spent on border family separation compared to the IG Congressional hearing. That and some of the hyperbole used in the MSM, like Nazi comparisons by news people and news guests and Congressmen, is ridiculous.
 

howeda7

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More proof that this whole story is a cooked up lie/political crisis:https://www.dailywire.com/news/32069/schumer-says-hed-rather-keep-focus-trump-solve-joseph-curl




ByJOSEPH CURL
@JOSEPHCURL
June 20, 2018

"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." -- Rahm Emanuel, former chief of staff to President Barack Obama

In a news story published Tuesday by The Hill headlined "Schumer rejects GOP proposal to address border crisis," the writer included this paragraph: "Asked if that meant Democrats would not support a bill backed by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) to keep immigrant families together while seeking asylum on the U.S. border, Schumer said they want to keep the focus on Trump."

"Keep the focus on Trump."

Wired Sources
@WiredSources
JUST IN: Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer says he would rather 'keep the focus on Trump' than support bill which keeps illegal immigrant families united at the border

Schumer, who has bashed Trump at every turn and has repeatedly declared that Congress — not the president — should take this action or that, now suddenly wants to defer to Trump. He claims Congress simply can't solve the problem, but Trump, with the stroke of a pen, can.
None of that changes that this is really happening and doesn't need to be. Every person can choose which side of the "should we be cruel to migrant children?" issue to be on. You've chosen yours. I know it won't stop you from swinging your Bible around the next time it suits you.
 

KillerGopherFan

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Trump is going to sign an EO to keep families together. Let’s see what happens to comprehensive legislation now. This is going to go on forever.
 

Section2

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None of that changes that this is really happening and doesn't need to be. Every person can choose which side of the "should we be cruel to migrant children?" issue to be on. You've chosen yours. I know it won't stop you from swinging your Bible around the next time it suits you.
It's so brave of you to take on literal Nazis like this.
 

bga1

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IF (I repeat, IF) the GOP comes up with a clean bill, then Schumer should support it. Of course, there is no bill today, so who knows. I do think it's ridiculous that it should come to that, because Sessions could undo his zero-tolerance policy tomorrow. But still, Schumer should support a clean bill. McConnell can just call his bluff and take up the bill to which 49 Democratic Senators have signed-on.

It's pretty ridiculous, though, to then conclude that the whole story is a "cooked up lie" [sic] given that Trump has repeatedly said it's a problem, and Miller, Kelly, and Sessions are proud of it. It's happening. We can argue about WHY, but it's happening and it's preposterous to pretend otherwise.
Define- "clean bill". Does that mean that we end up with essentially open borders- like the Dems want? How do we figure out at the border the following things:

1. Who are the real actual families?
2. Which groups are bringing in kids that are just being used to help them gain access?
3. Who actually has a legitimate asylum case? Who doesn't and should be immediately deported?

The problem is that the border patrol often has no way of knowing who is who and who really belongs to who. They currently are separating and detaining them for up to 20 days. That's how long they have to figure out whether to bring them to a children only facility (to protect them from predators ). The facilities they go to are actually much better than where they have come from- yet this is somehow cruel.

Whatever happens has to involve respecting our borders and not jamming our court systems. It costs $35,000 per year to hold one of these refugees. We have 600,000 cases pending - which may mean way more than 600,000 people idk.

Rather than say "clean bill" why don't you say- here this is my solution- if it is so easy. Put it out there and we can look at it and pick it apart.
 
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