Scott Dochterman breaks down why colleges MUST play football this year

GopherLady

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Changed it up a little bit for the GH podcast this week, I had the Athletic's Scott Dochterman on to talk about the new Big 10 schedule, as well as the status of Iowa football and the investigation going on. Find out why he doesn't think Kirk Ferentz is on the hot seat...and it's not about wins and losses.

 

fmlizard

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Lose one life to play sports and the loss is infinite.
Do not play sports and the loss is only money.
If one student athlete dies of Covid this fall so that tens of thousands of athletes across many sports can continue their dreams, that many others who gain livelihood or joy from it prosper, that the whole uniquely American institution of college athletics survives...it’s worth it.

We all take risks every day so society can function. Some can be fatal. Even under worldwide lockdown millions took grave risks for us all. To do things as simple as bag groceries. A relative few, but many, paid the ultimate price.

We ask more of Army privates in far less glorious circumstance. There is an acceptable risk of loss in many areas of life to keep calm and carry on.
 

Crosby

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Lose one life to play sports and the loss is infinite.
Do not play sports and the loss is only money.
Ridiculous. More than one person will die in accidents driving to the games. If the measuring stick is that "nothing is worth doing that could result in a single loss of life" then we really hosed as a society.
 

Plato

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There is a significant philosophical difference between the examples posted but those who posted them seem to live such empty lives that missing a fall without Gopher football is like unto death.
 

Gophers1992

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There is a significant philosophical difference between the examples posted but those who posted them seem to live such empty lives that missing a fall without Gopher football is like unto death.
While it's true that some people are only thinking about their own selfish desires, I think you are overlooking the fact that a missed college football season could have a disastrous effect on our higher education system, the economies of many college towns, and countless other effects. You are being as short-sighted as the people you criticize.
 

Roland Brooks

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I would be more fearful of my son being in a frat then playing football. Athletes will constantly be tested and get immediate care.

The positivity rate will be hire for non-student athletes.
 

WindyCityGopher

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Very interesting interview in Wired with epidemiologist Larry Brilliant. What is becoming clear to doctors and researchers is that COVID-19 is a viscious disease that can have very serious and long-lasting/permanent health implictions for those who survive. We have to stop looking at the possibility of death as the only marker of whether we resume sports or send kids back to school, etc. The great majority do survive getting the virus, but at what cost? From the first several months of research, the science says it may be high.

"So now we can begin to understand that this virus attacks the circulatory system, it attacks the vascular and nervous systems, it attacks the respiratory system, it attacks our ability to bring in oxygen. That’s why people can go to the hospital and be on their phone, not in any respiratory distress, but have oxygen saturation in the 50s, which in the old days we’d think of as you’re near death. It also makes you understand why you can get these Covid toes, why you can lose your sense of taste or smell, why you can have a stroke. This virus attacks blood vessels, it creates blood clots. That is probably one of the reasons why it causes strokes. We have a very large number of deaths due to kidney failure, and we are having terrible results from the ventilators that we were so obsessed about early on, though lately it’s looking a little better, because we’ve learned more about how to use them for this disease. We have learned a tremendous amount about this virus, about how it infects people, how it kills, how it spreads, but the big surprise to me is the kind of pan-organ nature of its attack. It gives the lie to anybody who thought that a comparison with influenza was in the ballpark."

- Dr. Larry Brilliant

 

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Very interesting interview in Wired with epidemiologist Larry Brilliant. What is becoming clear to doctors and researchers is that COVID-19 is a viscious disease that can have very serious and long-lasting/permanent health implictions for those who survive. We have to stop looking at the possibility of death as the only marker of whether we resume sports or send kids back to school, etc. The great majority do survive getting the virus, but at what cost? From the first several months of research, the science says it may be high.

"So now we can begin to understand that this virus attacks the circulatory system, it attacks the vascular and nervous systems, it attacks the respiratory system, it attacks our ability to bring in oxygen. That’s why people can go to the hospital and be on their phone, not in any respiratory distress, but have oxygen saturation in the 50s, which in the old days we’d think of as you’re near death. It also makes you understand why you can get these Covid toes, why you can lose your sense of taste or smell, why you can have a stroke. This virus attacks blood vessels, it creates blood clots. That is probably one of the reasons why it causes strokes. We have a very large number of deaths due to kidney failure, and we are having terrible results from the ventilators that we were so obsessed about early on, though lately it’s looking a little better, because we’ve learned more about how to use them for this disease. We have learned a tremendous amount about this virus, about how it infects people, how it kills, how it spreads, but the big surprise to me is the kind of pan-organ nature of its attack. It gives the lie to anybody who thought that a comparison with influenza was in the ballpark."

- Dr. Larry Brilliant

Brilliant!
 

El Amin Fan

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Very interesting interview in Wired with epidemiologist Larry Brilliant. What is becoming clear to doctors and researchers is that COVID-19 is a viscious disease that can have very serious and long-lasting/permanent health implictions for those who survive. We have to stop looking at the possibility of death as the only marker of whether we resume sports or send kids back to school, etc. The great majority do survive getting the virus, but at what cost? From the first several months of research, the science says it may be high.

"So now we can begin to understand that this virus attacks the circulatory system, it attacks the vascular and nervous systems, it attacks the respiratory system, it attacks our ability to bring in oxygen. That’s why people can go to the hospital and be on their phone, not in any respiratory distress, but have oxygen saturation in the 50s, which in the old days we’d think of as you’re near death. It also makes you understand why you can get these Covid toes, why you can lose your sense of taste or smell, why you can have a stroke. This virus attacks blood vessels, it creates blood clots. That is probably one of the reasons why it causes strokes. We have a very large number of deaths due to kidney failure, and we are having terrible results from the ventilators that we were so obsessed about early on, though lately it’s looking a little better, because we’ve learned more about how to use them for this disease. We have learned a tremendous amount about this virus, about how it infects people, how it kills, how it spreads, but the big surprise to me is the kind of pan-organ nature of its attack. It gives the lie to anybody who thought that a comparison with influenza was in the ballpark."

- Dr. Larry Brilliant

Interesting read, thanks for posting. Scary stuff.
 

Some guy

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Lose one life to play sports and the loss is infinite.
Do not play sports and the loss is only money.
That’s true but it’s a false choice fallacy

but if you don’t play sports people are still going to die.
It’s not like not playing football means no college football players get it. Look at all the positive tests at all the different schools.
 

MplsGopher

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Ridiculous. More than one person will die in accidents driving to the games. If the measuring stick is that "nothing is worth doing that could result in a single loss of life" then we really hosed as a society.
The difference is quite obvious, when you consider the possibility of how many people will suffer/die because they got infected from a person who got infected at tailgating/the game.

When someone dies in a car accident on the way to the game, that doesn't infect someone else.

But someone who gets infected with cv19 at a game, and then infects 25 other people, 8 of which die ....


I think you're forcing yourself to pretend you don't understand the difference.
 

MplsGopher

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While it's true that some people are only thinking about their own selfish desires, I think you are overlooking the fact that a missed college football season could have a disastrous effect on our higher education system, the economies of many college towns, and countless other effects. You are being as short-sighted as the people you criticize.
No matter how successful, I doubt there is a school in the country whose total budget has significantly more than some very small % coming from athletics revenue.

Our higher education system will continue to be quite strong, even if there were no such thing as college athletics.

It's a "nice to have" feature of the college experience. But a large majority of the fans are people who already graduated or never went to the school, to be honest.
 

MplsGopher

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Very interesting interview in Wired with epidemiologist Larry Brilliant. What is becoming clear to doctors and researchers is that COVID-19 is a viscious disease that can have very serious and long-lasting/permanent health implictions for those who survive. We have to stop looking at the possibility of death as the only marker of whether we resume sports or send kids back to school, etc. The great majority do survive getting the virus, but at what cost? From the first several months of research, the science says it may be high.

"So now we can begin to understand that this virus attacks the circulatory system, it attacks the vascular and nervous systems, it attacks the respiratory system, it attacks our ability to bring in oxygen. That’s why people can go to the hospital and be on their phone, not in any respiratory distress, but have oxygen saturation in the 50s, which in the old days we’d think of as you’re near death. It also makes you understand why you can get these Covid toes, why you can lose your sense of taste or smell, why you can have a stroke. This virus attacks blood vessels, it creates blood clots. That is probably one of the reasons why it causes strokes. We have a very large number of deaths due to kidney failure, and we are having terrible results from the ventilators that we were so obsessed about early on, though lately it’s looking a little better, because we’ve learned more about how to use them for this disease. We have learned a tremendous amount about this virus, about how it infects people, how it kills, how it spreads, but the big surprise to me is the kind of pan-organ nature of its attack. It gives the lie to anybody who thought that a comparison with influenza was in the ballpark."

- Dr. Larry Brilliant

So this got me thinking: what are the actual types of cells that sars2 (cv19's virus) attacks?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/04/200407131453.htm

Infection requires receptors and cofactors

"We wanted to find out which specific cells the coronavirus attacks," explains Professor Christian Conrad, who also works at the BIH Digital Health Center. The scientists knew, from studies by BIH Professor Christian Drosten, director of the Institute of Virology at Campus Charité; Mitte, and by others, that the virus's spike protein attaches to an ACE2 receptor on the cell surface. In addition, the virus needs one or more cofactors for it to be able to penetrate cells. But which cells are endowed with such receptors and cofactors? Which cells in which part of the respiratory system are particularly susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection? Eils and his colleagues at the BIH and Charité; now used single-cell sequencing technology to examine the cells in the samples from Heidelberg.

60,000 single cells were sequenced

"We then analyzed a total of nearly 60,000 cells to determine whether they activated the gene for the receptor and potential cofactors, thus in principle allowing them to be infected by the coronavirus," reports Soeren Lukassen, one of the lead authors of the study now being published in The EMBO Journal. "We only found the gene transcripts for ACE2 and for the cofactor TMPRSS2 in very few cells, and only in very small numbers." Lukassen and his four co-lead authors Robert Lorenz Chua, Timo Trefzer, Nicolas C. Kahn and Marc A. Schneider discovered that certain progenitor cells in the bronchi are mainly responsible for producing the coronavirus receptors. These progenitor cells normally develop into respiratory tract cells lined with hair-like projections called cilia that sweep mucus and bacteria out of the lungs. "Armed with the knowledge of which cells are attacked, we can now develop targeted therapies," explains Professor Michael Kreuter from the Thorax Clinic at Heidelberg University Hospital.

Why does the infection progress so differently?

An interesting additional finding of the study was that the ACE2 receptor density on the cells increased with age and was generally higher in men than in women. "This was only a trend, but it could explain why SARS-CoV-2 has infected more men than women," Eils says. However, he points out, "our sample sizes are still much too small to make conclusive statements, so we need to repeat the study in larger patient cohorts."

"These results show us that the virus acts in a highly selective manner, and that it is dependent on certain human cells in order to spread and replicate," Eils explains. "The better we understand the interaction between the virus and its host, the better we will be able to develop effective counterstrategies." He and the other researchers will next study COVID 19 patients to ascertain whether the virus has actually infected these cells. "We want to understand why the infection takes a benign course in some patients, while causing severe disease in others," Eils says. "So we will also look closely at the immune cells in the infected tissue."




I guess this isn't surprising now (the article was from early Apr). It's pretty much understood to be a respiratory disease.


But that doesn't explain at all why it seems that the disease affects blood vessels, the nervous system, and causes blood clots.

I think the answer there is somehow going to be related to the immune response of each person. We know that in rare cases even young, healthy people have this "cytokine storm" that ravages their body. Maybe these cytokines can cause all of those diseases too? I don't think medical science knows the exact answer or mechanisms involved, at this point in our abilities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine#Adverse_effects

Adverse effects of cytokines have been linked to many disease states and conditions ranging from schizophrenia, major depression[27] and Alzheimer's disease[28] to cancer.[29] Normal tissue integrity is preserved by feedback interactions between diverse cell types mediated by adhesion molecules and secreted cytokines; disruption of normal feedback mechanisms in cancer threatens tissue integrity.[30]

Over-secretion of cytokines can trigger a dangerous cytokine storm syndrome. Cytokine storms may have been the cause of severe adverse events during a clinical trial of TGN1412. Cytokine storms are also suspected to be the main cause of death in the 1918 "Spanish Flu" pandemic. Deaths were weighted more heavily towards people with healthy immune systems, because of their ability to produce stronger immune responses, with dramatic increases in cytokine levels. Another example of cytokine storm is seen in acute pancreatitis. Cytokines are integral and implicated in all angles of the cascade resulting in the systemic inflammatory response syndrome and multi organ failure associated with this intra-abdominal catastrophe.[31] In the COVID-19 pandemic, some deaths from COVID-19 have been attributable to cytokine release storms.[32][33]
[34]
 

GoldenRodents

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Lose one life to play sports and the loss is infinite.
Do not play sports and the loss is only money.
" 33 NCAA football players died playing the sport between 2000 and 2016, an average of two per season. Six of those deaths were traumatic, the result of injuries caused by collisions. The rest were non-traumatic, the result of intense exercise. "
 

MplsGopher

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" 33 NCAA football players died playing the sport between 2000 and 2016, an average of two per season. Six of those deaths were traumatic, the result of injuries caused by collisions. The rest were non-traumatic, the result of intense exercise. "
Post #13, same exact response since it's the same exact argument.
 

Gophers1992

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No matter how successful, I doubt there is a school in the country whose total budget has significantly more than some very small % coming from athletics revenue.

Our higher education system will continue to be quite strong, even if there were no such thing as college athletics.

It's a "nice to have" feature of the college experience. But a large majority of the fans are people who already graduated or never went to the school, to be honest.
The problem is that the expenses don't all just go away if there's no season. And the revenue loss is huge.

I'm not saying they should play this year, just saying that the impact goes well beyond myself and other grown men needing to find a new way to spend Saturdays in the fall. There's a reason AD's are basically crapping their pants right now.
 

MplsGopher

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The problem is that the expenses don't all just go away if there's no season. And the revenue loss is huge.

I'm not saying they should play this year, just saying that the impact goes well beyond myself and other grown men needing to find a new way to spend Saturdays in the fall. There's a reason AD's are basically crapping their pants right now.
I'm saying, cancel the seasons obviously (no operations/travel costs), furlough all coaches and employees, turn the lights off and the hvac settings on the buildings as minimal as possible to prevent substantial damage, and cancel scholarships for the athletes and instead ask the school to take that hit by offering them tuition waivers instead.

That would have to be a huge % of the costs, for the year. Debt service on buildings can't be dismissed, but hopefully that's not more than like 20-25% at most schools, and hopefully the school would be willing to help out with that for a year.
 

GopherDog1

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If Gopher football has to be played in spring 2021, oh well. At that point at least, I won't have to worry about Deer Opener this year. If the deer opener weekend game is at home (ie: Penn State) I stay home and I am happy to see the game at TCF, if it is away I go to deer camp. (no BTN)

On that topic: in MN we lose some years, one human life on deer opener and since it generates big money for the State of MN nobody is calling for the cancellation of the two week deer season. For certain in MN, we see injuries each year on Opening weekend. Folks fall out of tree stands, I cut my hand badly one year gutting my deer, people get shot, the list goes on and on. No one ever calls for the cancellation of Deer Season.
 
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oak_street1981

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There is a significant philosophical difference between the examples posted but those who posted them seem to live such empty lives that missing a fall without Gopher football is like unto death.
THis country would not exist if it the timid risk adverse extremism promoted by Plato had been prevalent during any crisis in the last 250 years. The old "if just one life is saved" tyranny once again
 

short ornery norwegian

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as the risk of sounding callous, what we are talking about here is a form of cost-benefit analysis.

drug companies put out drugs that have side effects, but they consider the overall benefit to patients as outweighing the impact that side effects may have on a small number of patients.

if there is a regular college football season, the number of players who actually become very ill or die will likely be very low. there is a higher risk for coaches, support staff and other people connected to the program who may be older or have pre-existing conditions.

I would not say "shut it down" to prevent one death. But that is too simplistic of an equation. You also have to factor in the loss of revenue if games are played without fans in the stands. Also, the quality of play will likely be impacted if players test positive and have to sit out games.

So, I would say the real question is this: does the entertainment value of having a season - and the TV revenue for the schools - outweigh the negative aspects of no fans in the stands, players missing time due to positive tests, and the possibility of at least some serious illnesses among coaches and staff members?
 

Pompous Elitist

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There is a significant philosophical difference between the examples posted but those who posted them seem to live such empty lives that missing a fall without Gopher football is like unto death.
There is no difference except in your own mind.
 

Pompous Elitist

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Very interesting interview in Wired with epidemiologist Larry Brilliant. What is becoming clear to doctors and researchers is that COVID-19 is a viscious disease that can have very serious and long-lasting/permanent health implictions for those who survive. We have to stop looking at the possibility of death as the only marker of whether we resume sports or send kids back to school, etc. The great majority do survive getting the virus, but at what cost? From the first several months of research, the science says it may be high.

"So now we can begin to understand that this virus attacks the circulatory system, it attacks the vascular and nervous systems, it attacks the respiratory system, it attacks our ability to bring in oxygen. That’s why people can go to the hospital and be on their phone, not in any respiratory distress, but have oxygen saturation in the 50s, which in the old days we’d think of as you’re near death. It also makes you understand why you can get these Covid toes, why you can lose your sense of taste or smell, why you can have a stroke. This virus attacks blood vessels, it creates blood clots. That is probably one of the reasons why it causes strokes. We have a very large number of deaths due to kidney failure, and we are having terrible results from the ventilators that we were so obsessed about early on, though lately it’s looking a little better, because we’ve learned more about how to use them for this disease. We have learned a tremendous amount about this virus, about how it infects people, how it kills, how it spreads, but the big surprise to me is the kind of pan-organ nature of its attack. It gives the lie to anybody who thought that a comparison with influenza was in the ballpark."

- Dr. Larry Brilliant

We need to see actual numbers, ie how common? Those results can happen after any number of diseases, infection, injury, surgical or medication adverse event.
 
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hungan1

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This is absolutely scary stuff.

To play or not to play, the cost is astronomical in terms of fiduciary or human capital either way.

They don't have very many good choices rowing the boat in uncharted waters.
 

GoodasGold

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If one student athlete dies of Covid this fall so that tens of thousands of athletes across many sports can continue their dreams, that many others who gain livelihood or joy from it prosper, that the whole uniquely American institution of college athletics survives...it’s worth it.

We all take risks every day so society can function. Some can be fatal. Even under worldwide lockdown millions took grave risks for us all. To do things as simple as bag groceries. A relative few, but many, paid the ultimate price.

We ask more of Army privates in far less glorious circumstance. There is an acceptable risk of loss in many areas of life to keep calm and carry on.
As long as it’s not me dying, then yes I am in agreement with you.
 

Maverick

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In response to #13, 25 people won’t get infected if the requirement is every one wear a mask. In addition that 40% would die (8 out of 25) sounds like a comment from CNN.
I was going to say the same thing. The fatality rate is waaayyyyy less than 1%, so maybe about 1/100th of a person would die...maybe. I'm guessing at the math, but the point is that Mpls Gopher is exaggerating and avoiding truths like the MSM does. All scare tactics like they think the American people are really dumb.
 

PoockItInfor6

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Plato’s point is certainly hard to argue In a vacuum. However, no decisions don’t have unintended consequences... if sports don’t happen, Minnesotans are stuck in their homes through the winter, most of us are stuck working from home, no sun, reduced social interaction... How much does SAAD cost in terms of human life? How much does domestic violence increase? Depression? Anxiety? Even obesity is likely to increase which also has a toll... Sports are not more important than human life, but they are a beacon of sunshine and a needed distraction to some.

I myself am a person that rarely feels stress in normal times, but I will say there has been a level of anxiety in recent months that for all I know could be shortening the life of my ticker.
 
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