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cjbfbp

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I don’t think you fire him based on this year or two years ago. You fire him based on what you think he is going to do next year.
I think you want more than that from a coach but you just worded that statement a little misleadingly.

What Pitino may do next year shouldn't be enough to save him.

Let's assume for the moment that this season concludes as expected at this point: a record below .500 overall and well below .500 in the conference. If that is the result, that will mean that Pitino has failed to achieve two consecutive good years during his 7 year tenure.

Perhaps, if things go right and there are no significant departures, Pitino may have a good team next year. What about the year after? Do we trust this coach to field teams who are capable of being even modestly successful over two consecutive years?

Good (or even decent) programs should be able to field teams that are at least moderately successful over a two or three year period. I don't see any reason to trust this coach to do that.
 

Parcival

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I think you want more than that from a coach but you just worded that statement a little misleadingly.

What Pitino may do next year shouldn't be enough to save him.

Let's assume for the moment that this season concludes as expected at this point: a record below .500 overall and well below .500 in the conference. If that is the result, that will mean that Pitino has failed to achieve two consecutive good years during his 7 year tenure.

Perhaps, if things go right and there are no significant departures, Pitino may have a good team next year. What about the year after? Do we trust this coach to field teams who are capable of being even modestly successful over two consecutive years?

Good (or even decent) programs should be able to field teams that are at least moderately successful over a two or three year period. I don't see any reason to trust this coach to do that.
Personally I think his recruiting has been getting better overall even with the misses on some of the local talent. So I think in a few years after hitting on consistently good classes the team should also improve.

Obviously this season is looking like a disaster but I still have hope that Ihnen, Williams and Greenlee could all pan out into giving us quality minutes as they develop. Martice Mitchell and Mashburn Jr. should be nice players as well, as should Treyton Thompson in 2021.

That being if he can't turn this season around Coyle will at least be looking for a new hire.
 

CentralGopher

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Everyone can debate all they want whether or not to fire Pitino but I'll stay out of it and just support the coach while he is here. If Coyle decides to fire I trust that he has his replacement coach in mind that he believes will be an upgrade and I'll support whoever he hires in that case. I'm as disappointed as anyone else in the drop off this year but still love the gophers and will watch to see if they improve from here. Go Gophers!
 

cjbfbp

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Personally I think his recruiting has been getting better overall even with the misses on some of the local talent.
I don't know that I agree with that. His recruiting tends to be like his win totals per season - varies significantly from year-to-year. I'm not talking about star ratings - I'm talking about performance on the court. Jordan Murphy was a 3 star but an elite performer. Coffey and Oturu were 4 stars and elite performers. Isaiah Washington was a 4 star but he didn't play like it. So far, 4 star Ihnen only can get occasional minutes on a weak team. Pitino's recruiting record shows that he sometimes can get very good players but his ability to recruit a competent supporting cast is lacking.
 

Parcival

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I don't know that I agree with that. His recruiting tends to be like his win totals per season - varies significantly from year-to-year. I'm not talking about star ratings - I'm talking about performance on the court. Jordan Murphy was a 3 star but an elite performer. Coffey and Oturu were 4 stars and elite performers. Isaiah Washington was a 4 star but he didn't play like it. So far, 4 star Ihnen only can get occasional minutes on a weak team. Pitino's recruiting record shows that he sometimes can get very good players but his ability to recruit a competent supporting cast is lacking.
Well maybe you could try giving it time? Our freshman aren't all going to look like studs out of the gate... sometimes you actually have to DEVELOP players.

The amount of people throwing in the towel on the 2019 recruiting class is baffling to me. We haven't even seen Ihnen play real minutes yet.
 

Some guy

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I think you want more than that from a coach but you just worded that statement a little misleadingly.

What Pitino may do next year shouldn't be enough to save him.

Let's assume for the moment that this season concludes as expected at this point: a record below .500 overall and well below .500 in the conference. If that is the result, that will mean that Pitino has failed to achieve two consecutive good years during his 7 year tenure.

Perhaps, if things go right and there are no significant departures, Pitino may have a good team next year. What about the year after? Do we trust this coach to field teams who are capable of being even modestly successful over two consecutive years?

Good (or even decent) programs should be able to field teams that are at least moderately successful over a two or three year period. I don't see any reason to trust this coach to do that.
I’m on the record mid last year saying I’m done with him.
You don’t have to convince me.

I do still think though you don’t fire someone based on the past, you fire them based on the present and future
 

60's Guy

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Firing a coach during the season is folly. We need to let the season play out.

We could beat Ohio State. The chances seem very tiny. I disagree with Built...I see a struggle to win 5 games. I’d love to see 9-11.

If Ihnen, Greenlee, and Freeman are not getting regular playing time starting really really soon there is no conclusion but to fire him. And if at some point later they do start playing and play well, he still must go because either way he has proven he has trouble recruiting/evaluating the people he needs to build a team.

The only logic for this season was to play those guys from jump street. If they are not the future why are they here? Next year with Oturu should be better no matter what Richard does. But play the freshmen This year and then you have wait until next year. Right now we just got bad basketball.
 

Parcival

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Firing a coach during the season is folly. We need to let the season play out.

We could beat Ohio State. The chances seem very tiny. I disagree with Built...I see a struggle to win 5 games. I’d love to see 9-11.

If Ihnen, Greenlee, and Freeman are not getting regular playing time starting really really soon there is no conclusion but to fire him. And if at some point later they do start playing and play well, he still must go because either way he has proven he has trouble recruiting/evaluating the people he needs to build a team.

The only logic for this season was to play those guys from jump street. If they are not the future why are they here? Next year with Oturu should be better no matter what he does. But play the freshmen This year and
You can put me on record right now for calling that we won't have Oturu next year. But yes he should have played the freshman more in the first non conference games. You can't just throw them in against Big Ten opponents and expect to win games.
 

builtbadgers

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He may have decided that those that play have earned it and those that do not play have not earned it or a not ready. He is playing the guys at give the team the best chance to win right now.
 

60's Guy

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Counting on Demir and Hurt to win games offers pretty limited upside. How many they gonna impact in a positive way.

The freshmen have potential and athleticism.
They could certainly offer more by season’s end than the present.

Again, I was gambling somebody emerging, surprising given the opportunity among the freshmen. If that didn’t happen we would struggle. Status quo makes two bad seasons.
 

60's Guy

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He may have decided that those that play have earned it and those that do not play have not earned it or a not ready. He is playing the guys at give the team the best chance to win right now.
I’m sure you right for this week. Especially since they have not had the opportunity early.
But, cut bait. Develop more athletic guys. Let them grow from their mistakes this year. Not next.
 

cjbfbp

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Well maybe you could try giving it time? Our freshman aren't all going to look like studs out of the gate... sometimes you actually have to DEVELOP players.
Yes, player development can result in substantial improvements but Pitino hasn't demonstrated that he's very good at that either. As someone else posted here recently: rarely has he shown that he can turn below average players into average players and average players into above average players.

Actually, you are wrong about what freshman can or can't do "out of the gate." Let's look at the best players Pitino recruited as freshmen:

Jordan Murphy: the best player on a bad team as a freshmen
Amir Coffey: started (on a good team), had a 30 point game, cored in double figures in 22 games, and had a decent Player Efficiency Rating of 15.5 as a freshman
Daniel Oturu: started and had a 22.0 Player Efficiency Rating as a freshman (second best on the team)
Nate Mason: played 862 minutes, started 8 games, and had a 17.9 Player Efficiency Rating as a freshman

The freshman recruits who didn't make a significant impact as freshmen (Konate, Hurt, Washington, McBrayer) ranged from below average to just average players (at best) through their remaining time with the program. It's too early to tell about Gabe. He was pretty decent as a fourth option in his freshman year but has been pretty underwhelming so far this year.
 

Five Toes

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Just listened to Pitino on an early addition of The Sports Huddle. It is so refreshing to listen to a HC that actually answers the questions asked without the attitude. I really hope he can get this thing turned around and headed in the right direction. The results will dictate his fate, but he is a very likeable HC who we should all support.
 

cjbfbp

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he is a very likeable HC who we should all support.
Personally, I don't think he's as likable as some of you feel. There's a difference between being likable and being able interact well with the media.

Secondly, that's not what he's being paid for; he's paid to win games. Would likability be your most desirable trait when seeking a surgeon, an attorney, or an auto mechanic?

If "likability" is his best attribute, maybe he is in the wrong business. Perhaps he should try being a TV or radio talk show host.
 

SelectionSunday

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Yes, player development can result in substantial improvements but Pitino hasn't demonstrated that he's very good at that either. As someone else posted here recently: rarely has he shown that he can turn below average players into average players and average players into above average players.

Actually, you are wrong about what freshman can or can't do "out of the gate." Let's look at the best players Pitino recruited as freshmen:

Jordan Murphy: the best player on a bad team as a freshmen
Amir Coffey: started (on a good team), had a 30 point game, cored in double figures in 22 games, and had a decent Player Efficiency Rating of 15.5 as a freshman
Daniel Oturu: started and had a 22.0 Player Efficiency Rating as a freshman (second best on the team)
Nate Mason: played 862 minutes, started 8 games, and had a 17.9 Player Efficiency Rating as a freshman

The freshman recruits who didn't make a significant impact as freshmen (Konate, Hurt, Washington, McBrayer) ranged from below average to just average players (at best) through their remaining time with the program. It's too early to tell about Gabe. He was pretty decent as a fourth option in his freshman year but has been pretty underwhelming so far this year.
Respectfully, McBrayer does not deserve to be lumped with Konate, Hurt, and Washington.
 

Five Toes

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Personally, I don't think he's as likable as some of you feel. There's a difference between being likable and being able interact well with the media.

Secondly, that's not what he's being paid for; he's paid to win games. Would likability be your most desirable trait when seeking a surgeon, an attorney, or an auto mechanic?

If "likability" is his best attribute, maybe he is in the wrong business. Perhaps he should try being a TV or radio talk show host.
As I stated his results will decide his future. I still find it refreshing not to get the same old coach speak.
 

CentralGopher

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Personally, I don't think he's as likable as some of you feel. There's a difference between being likable and being able interact well with the media.

Secondly, that's not what he's being paid for; he's paid to win games. Would likability be your most desirable trait when seeking a surgeon, an attorney, or an auto mechanic?

If "likability" is his best attribute, maybe he is in the wrong business. Perhaps he should try being a TV or radio talk show host.
His personality fits with the MN passive aggressive attitudes but isn’t for everyone .
 

MennoSota

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You can put me on record right now for calling that we won't have Oturu next year. But yes he should have played the freshman more in the first non conference games. You can't just throw them in against Big Ten opponents and expect to win games.
Oturu is not close to being ready for the NBA. It will be folly for him to leave after this season.
 

Five Toes

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His personality fits with the MN passive aggressive attitudes but isn’t for everyone .
I agree with you. I always give our Coaches too much lead way, that is being a fan. Roster Management due to lack of player development may be his demise. People hammer on PJ because he doesn't act like we want, yet his approach seems to work. MN passive aggressive sucks.
 

Parcival

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Oturu is not close to being ready for the NBA. It will be folly for him to leave after this season.
His stats argue that he is actually ready. Not to mention that plenty of NBA prospects are drafted based on potential and not immediate contributions. Do you think Mo Bamba or Jaxson Hayes were ready for the NBA?
 

die hard gopher

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Oturu is not close to being ready for the NBA. It will be folly for him to leave after this season.
That’s what people said about Amir. Didn’t stop him from leaving early.

And Dan’s numbers are much better.
 

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BGA, our record would indicate we have not adapted as well as you have indicated. I promise to watch Sunday and report back what I see.;) Clearly, something is amuck. From what I have seen this year, they have not made the game easy by making the smart and sometimes simple play.

Often, the game is won and lost at the margin. Watching the Wolves lately, their transition defense has been weak, they half box out and they are married to the 3 and take too many contested 3s while giving up uncontested 3s (their close outs earlier in the year were awesome). They were tighter on these things earlier in the year, they loosened a little and the wheels have come off. If you consistently do the little things and you have halfway decent talent, you will win more than you lose. We are losing more than we are winning...something is off in our equation.
I promised I would watch Sunday and I did. What in the heck are you all complaining about!
 

bga1

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I promised I would watch Sunday and I did. What in the heck are you all complaining about!
Way to hang with it my man. It was rewarded tonight in a big way. So fun!
 

cncmin

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No s@#& it matters what Coyle thinks. The point is that the corner has not been made. We are no better off than we were with Tubby Smith. We remain mired in mediocrity.
disagree. The recruiting is clearly stronger now than in the last several Tubby years, when it appeared that Tubby quit trying. Pitino has not stopped trying, that is obvious.
 

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Way to hang with it my man. It was rewarded tonight in a big way. So fun!
Gophs played strong. I think if Carr can continue to develop his court awareness and continue to improve his dribble, he could do some really good things going forward. Good for Pitino for not over-correcting someone with upside in the face of some struggles. Oturu has another level most players don't have. The Gophs hit some tough shots that will not always fall. I would love to see them use Oturu to get open jumpers (when the double comes) or some hard cuts when he gets the ball. Carr can also get his teammates some open looks. Kalsheur is a confident player and it would be nice to see him get some more open looks. It would also be good for his game to make some timely cuts -- he is a surprisingly strong finisher. Every team needs an Omersa. He seems to be the type a player that will do whatever it takes to help a team win. Who doesn't want that player on their team?

Like Kalsheur, would like to see some more open looks for Willis. With a little more separation, he looks like he can be a consistent shooter and has good confidence. Demir has got to shoot it when he is open, but I thought he played a solid game. Williams came in looking confident in a tough game -- great to see.

I assume we will continue to see a lot of ups and downs until the gophs figure out a way to make the game a little easier. Contested shots will bring a lot of highs and lows. A great overall team effort and great win for the coach and coaching staff.
 

Bad Gopher

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I think built has said it best: how do we get from where we are (occasional upsets of top-10 teams, which are thrilling, of course) to where any program dreams of getting (being that top-10 team that everyone's gunning for)? We saw the football team transition from being the hunter early in the conference season to being the hunted late in the season--both Iowa and Wisconsin presumably burning the midnight oil to game plan and scheme the hell out of those games to beat the Gophers. Not that the football program is "there" yet--"there" meaning consistently the hunted in their conference or division--but they're trending in that direction.

A lot of debate on this site about what's a good fan and who are the good fans and the bad fans. In my opinion, a bad fan is someone who'll insist to their dying day that this program can never and will never be consistent winners like the mangy skunks to the east have been over the last 20+ years so we should stop dreaming and get real.
 

golfing18now

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I think built has said it best: how do we get from where we are (occasional upsets of top-10 teams, which are thrilling, of course) to where any program dreams of getting (being that top-10 team that everyone's gunning for)? We saw the football team transition from being the hunter early in the conference season to being the hunted late in the season--both Iowa and Wisconsin presumably burning the midnight oil to game plan and scheme the hell out of those games to beat the Gophers. Not that the football program is "there" yet--"there" meaning consistently the hunted in their conference or division--but they're trending in that direction.

A lot of debate on this site about what's a good fan and who are the good fans and the bad fans. In my opinion, a bad fan is someone who'll insist to their dying day that this program can never and will never be consistent winners like the mangy skunks to the east have been over the last 20+ years so we should stop dreaming and get real.
Per usual, another reasonable "basketball state of the state" post from Bad Gopher. I think you have been very fair in a number of posts recently in your evaluation of the program and Pitino, in particular, within a number of over-the-top (in my opinion) threads. I think the bad fan/good fan card is very overplayed here and really never solves anything.

My frustration in reading my fellow posters' evaluations are the knee jerk, premature evaluations of players/coaches within a finite number of game(s). Comments such as Carr is the worst point guard in the history of Gopher basektball (after 4 games), Demir isn't a Big Ten worthy player (after 2 games), the team has quit on Pitino (after the Iowa loss) really miss the mark. This team and the players cited are not nearly as bad as some of the comments on this board would indicate.

There will be plenty of time to evaluate the state of the state at the conclusion of this season. At that point, we can evaluate whether Pitino is the right person to lead this program and what bar should be set moving forward. In the meantime, it would nice if we could enjoy the season. It is why we are all here in the first place.
 
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