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builtbadgers

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I did not see a team that could win the big 10. I saw the same serious flaws in that Alabama 5 on 3 fiasco. Home loss to Miami, Crushed at Arkansas and Nebraska. We all have our own opinions and i do not put the Lynch situation as bad luck but bad recruiting. Piled up wins early against terrible teams. Not a hater of Pitino. Just has not done a very good job . In my opinion there are a ton of guys that would have built a foundation from day one and been a actual conference contender. The divide seems to occur when one group tries to sell him as great or is going to be great and the other group has expectations way above 40-70 and not a single sniff at a conference title. The 1st group rightfully points out the facts of injuries and the 2nd group despises excuses because every team, coach could use them. Just a different way of looking at things. If the 2nd base has a hate Pitino bias (which they dont,they just hate losing, then does the love Pitino group have a bias that blinds them to the facts. Bias is a tricky thing. It can make you like or dislike anything and when it comes to fans they can seldom see past the desire to want to win, against even aknowledging what other coaches and programs far exceed their own. Just not wired that way. As a matter of profession you see so much of what goes into it and few coaches have that something special. That is what makes them special. I was not raised to hate either. Observe, measure the data, talk to others, what are your own values and standards and then share them on the board or not. I could care less if others think great is different for them. They have every right to feel the way they do. Those that think the full body of work has been mediocre have every right to feel that way.
 

scools12

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This will be hard for the Pitino fan club to understand but being critical of him and not of the belief the program is on an upward trajectory doesn’t mean hate for him.

The fan club more than likely will get their way. Unless this is another historically bad season Pitino probably gets an eighth year to prove us haters wrong.
 

bga1

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The "fan club" are actually just people that just want to enjoy the college basketball season without months of carping about how the coach stinks. It's kind of fun to think positive. The AD will be making the decision on the coach. That doesn't mean we don't want to analyze how a particular game was strategized or how the offense is running or if the team is playing fundamental defense. It just means that we don't want to talk about blowing up the program every week throughout the season and starting over.
 

alchemy2u

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I do see improvements in staff and recruiting. Still very disappointed that 7 years in we do not have one thing we are known for. Could care less about what could be had Coffey stayed. Many programs lose a great deal more than that and move forward with success based on their culture. Examples would be great defense, toughness, efficiency. I could see him becoming a top 50 coach. Hell, he would be a legend around here if he won a single conference title.
Please stop being so condescending to the Gopher fan base!

We all want a consistent winner, but some see progress with Pitino. As we have discussed on NUMEROUS occasions. Pitino has had good seasons mixed in with very bad seasons. A fan can either note the progress of 2 tournament appearances or they can lament about early recruiting mistakes and injuries that have accounted for an overall bad record.

Pitino came in saying that he wanted to run on offense and play a pressure defense (remember all of the discussions about if it could work in the B1G?). He chased for the stars in recruiting and had to settle on some late signings of reach players. He is not the type of coach to chase off his recruits, that coupled with key injuries hampered his roster and the style of play. Remember when he had to start a walk-on a PG and play Joey at center? Those first few years he had many players out of position just to fill voids! Of course those roster problems are his responsibility, but it is all part of learning how to set up a team as a HC (note, MN is basically his first HC job). And then along came Murphy, the rebounding king of the B1G. Many say that a good coach can adapt a team to get the most out of his players. One could say that Pitino capitalized the strengths of Murphy. And Coffey came to the U to develop PG type skills to increase his chance of playing in the NBA.

Now with the large roster turnover, Pitino has recruited a team of young, athletic and defensive minded players that can finally play the style that he has always wanted to play. You can see it formulate in these first few games, but it will take a while to get locked down. It helps to have the right assistant coaches to develop the style. Many will say, why didn't he do it from the start? I think it was all part of the learning process and understanding the current state of the program. He started out trying to recruit like he was coaching at Louisville or Florida, going after the players just below the radar of Duke or Kentucky. He has now focuses in on the type of recruits that Built talks about, players with great potential that can be developed to fill the roles you need for your system.

I know that many of you will laugh, but I think it is too early to pull the plug on Pitino. He needs a few more years to see if he can get his system rolling. He now looks to be playing the type of style that most of us want to see and he is recruiting the type of players that we hope to get (minus the local kids with the "greener grass" syndrome). I believe that he is just were we would want a "new hire" to be, give him a couple more years to let him prove if he can consistently compete for the B1G.
 

Bad Gopher

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This will be hard for the Pitino fan club to understand but being critical of him and not of the belief the program is on an upward trajectory doesn’t mean hate for him.

The fan club more than likely will get their way. Unless this is another historically bad season Pitino probably gets an eighth year to prove us haters wrong.
I was going to post exactly the same thing, so thanks for saying this. Objectively stating that 7 years is enough of .364 conference ball isn't hate; it's love for the program and wanting the best for it. I have a lot of affection for Pitino, but can we be objectively honest about his results, both wins and enthusiastic fans in seats?
 

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I still have confidence in Pitino. I think one of his weaknesses are recruiting in getting that player to commit to Minnesota. I think his dad could be a plus in the recruiting arena. It would be a longshot for the Gophers to hire him
 

builtbadgers

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Please stop being so condescending to the Gopher fan base!

We all want a consistent winner, but some see progress with Pitino. As we have discussed on NUMEROUS occasions. Pitino has had good seasons mixed in with very bad seasons. A fan can either note the progress of 2 tournament appearances or they can lament about early recruiting mistakes and injuries that have accounted for an overall bad record.

Pitino came in saying that he wanted to run on offense and play a pressure defense (remember all of the discussions about if it could work in the B1G?). He chased for the stars in recruiting and had to settle on some late signings of reach players. He is not the type of coach to chase off his recruits, that coupled with key injuries hampered his roster and the style of play. Remember when he had to start a walk-on a PG and play Joey at center? Those first few years he had many players out of position just to fill voids! Of course those roster problems are his responsibility, but it is all part of learning how to set up a team as a HC (note, MN is basically his first HC job). And then along came Murphy, the rebounding king of the B1G. Many say that a good coach can adapt a team to get the most out of his players. One could say that Pitino capitalized the strengths of Murphy. And Coffey came to the U to develop PG type skills to increase his chance of playing in the NBA.

Now with the large roster turnover, Pitino has recruited a team of young, athletic and defensive minded players that can finally play the style that he has always wanted to play. You can see it formulate in these first few games, but it will take a while to get locked down. It helps to have the right assistant coaches to develop the style. Many will say, why didn't he do it from the start? I think it was all part of the learning process and understanding the current state of the program. He started out trying to recruit like he was coaching at Louisville or Florida, going after the players just below the radar of Duke or Kentucky. He has now focuses in on the type of recruits that Built talks about, players with great potential that can be developed to fill the roles you need for your system.

I know that many of you will laugh, but I think it is too early to pull the plug on Pitino. He needs a few more years to see if he can get his system rolling. He now looks to be playing the type of style that most of us want to see and he is recruiting the type of players that we hope to get (minus the local kids with the "greener grass" syndrome). I believe that he is just were we would want a "new hire" to be, give him a couple more years to let him prove if he can consistently compete for the B1G.
Your taking it as condescending. I look at it as analysis. I have stated i am completely behind him for this year and it being a year of great parity i have high hopes for this team. Not laughing at you , full agreement on bringing him back for this year. He gets over 10-10 bring him back him back again.
 

scools12

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The "fan club" are actually just people that just want to enjoy the college basketball season without months of carping about how the coach stinks. It's kind of fun to think positive. The AD will be making the decision on the coach. That doesn't mean we don't want to analyze how a particular game was strategized or how the offense is running or if the team is playing fundamental defense. It just means that we don't want to talk about blowing up the program every week throughout the season and starting over.
It actually means you don't want any talk that you deem critical of Pitino.

We even have one poster going with he needs a few more years before even considering a change. 10 years to figure out if the Pitino is the right guy for the job? I am sure you’re in agreement.
 

GrampaGopher

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What bothers me most about the MB Program is that they have struggled with Big Ten teams. As documented in earlier post, their Big Team record is bad. Supporters will say that they have been in the NCAA tourney for 2 of the last 3 years, but to get the crowds and Barn rocking they need to do a better job with their conference play.

The second thing is the inability of getting local kids to play at the U especially since they are such nationally recognized recruits. You are not going to get all of them but to go 2 years without getting any MN kids is not a good sign.

Fleck has shown that you can win at the U of M. It has all the pieces now with the new facilities. If you get the right basketball coach in place, I believe you could see similar results as with the football team. 7 years under Pitino is long of enough to get a pretty good read on direction and momentum of the basketball team.
 

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It actually means you don't want any talk that you deem critical of Pitino.

We even have one poster going with he needs a few more years before even considering a change. 10 years to figure out if the Pitino is the right guy for the job? I am sure you’re in agreement.
Any Pitino supporter on this board is used to the enormous amount of Pitino slander going around, Scools. Whether we want to hear it or not, .364 is being preached as if it's all we should look at when examining Pitino as the right coach for this program.

What we should be looking at is Pitino's past few seasons, not the disaster of the first several years where he recruited poorly and didn't coach the team to have an identity. With a little bit of luck we're coming off of 3 consecutive NCAA tournament appearances. Recruiting has also been getting better, albeit missing on some of the local talent. That's the reason a lot of us on this forum still have confidence in him - it isn't just a blind "fan club" as you put it.
 

alchemy2u

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Saying he would be a legend if he won a conference title is not analysis! It belittles the expectations of the fanbase And implies that you have greater insight.

As a scientist and financial analyst, I don’t make conclusions based upon simple averages of a data set. True analysis tries to gather as much information from the results and considers all of the factors that can affect the outcome. I agree that the results so far have been inconsistent and lack the level of success that we expect. But their is enough progress to continue.
 

builtbadgers

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Saying he would be a legend if he won a conference title is not analysis! It belittles the expectations of the fanbase And implies that you have greater insight.

As a scientist and financial analyst, I don’t make conclusions based upon simple averages of a data set. True analysis tries to gather as much information from the results and considers all of the factors that can affect the outcome. I agree that the results so far have been inconsistent and lack the level of success that we expect. But their is enough progress to continue.
Offering my opinion based on what i see with the poor defensive and offensive efficiency numbers. The opinion of the statue building if he got even one conference title is based on the observation that part of the fan base thinks what he has done so far is pretty good. I do not think it is even average for 6 full years. Just my opinion. There is 6 years of data on how inefficiently we have played.
 

Parcival

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Offering my opinion based on what i see with the poor defensive and offensive efficiency numbers. The opinion of the statue building if he got even one conference title is based on the observation that part of the fan base thinks what he has done so far is pretty good. I do not think it is even average for 6 full years. Just my opinion. There is 6 years of data on how inefficiently we have played.
Usually I agree with your analysis built but you're not picking up what Alchemy is putting down. He's saying there's enough to go on to continue with Pitino for at least a couple more years . Sure there's 6 years of "inefficiency" but he's a much better coach and recruiter now then he was when he first got to minneapolis.
 

builtbadgers

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Usually I agree with your analysis built but you're not picking up what Alchemy is putting down. He's saying there's enough to go on to continue with Pitino for at least a couple more years . Sure there's 6 years of "inefficiency" but he's a much better coach and recruiter now then he was when he first got to minneapolis.
I get what he is saying. Just have a different opinion. We just went 9-11. If we do that again that would be 6 out of 7 years with a losing conference record. Plus never competing for the conference title. It is ok to think that giving 3 more years or 10 more years is fine. I do not. He needs to be at least above .500 to earn another year and i think he will do that. Again, i still do not see a single thing that identifies us. Just a difference of opinion. I do not think he is a top 50 coach that will ever have a resume' of top 25, you know those guys that win multiple conference titles, final 4's, even the title. That is what they are hired to do. There are fans who think Jerry Kill is a great coach, i do not. No big deal. I have seen what great looks like and it is very obvious when you see it. We all have different standards and not for one moment have i declared that mine are better. Every person can make up their own mind. Curious, what does it look like for you if we have 10 losing seasons out of 11 and still have not come anywhere close to a conference title ? Reminding fans that i stand behind this team contending.
 

bga1

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It actually means you don't want any talk that you deem critical of Pitino.

We even have one poster going with he needs a few more years before even considering a change. 10 years to figure out if the Pitino is the right guy for the job? I am sure you’re in agreement.
Nope. If Pitino blows it during a game or is making questionable subsitutions, or we are not playing hard, I myself am going to complain. I don't have any problem with complaining about any coach or any player. I don't like the "fire the coach" attitude during the season and especially early in the year like this. If we are way under .500 in February, I will probably be right in there talking about potential replacements if it appears that the die is cast.

This constant fire the coach talk is destructive.
 

cjbfbp

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I did not see a team that could win the big 10. I saw the same serious flaws in that Alabama 5 on 3 fiasco. Home loss to Miami, Crushed at Arkansas and Nebraska. We all have our own opinions and i do not put the Lynch situation as bad luck but bad recruiting. Piled up wins early against terrible teams. Not a hater of Pitino. Just has not done a very good job . In my opinion there are a ton of guys that would have built a foundation from day one and been a actual conference contender. The divide seems to occur when one group tries to sell him as great or is going to be great and the other group has expectations way above 40-70 and not a single sniff at a conference title. The 1st group rightfully points out the facts of injuries and the 2nd group despises excuses because every team, coach could use them. Just a different way of looking at things. If the 2nd base has a hate Pitino bias (which they dont,they just hate losing, then does the love Pitino group have a bias that blinds them to the facts. Bias is a tricky thing. It can make you like or dislike anything and when it comes to fans they can seldom see past the desire to want to win, against even aknowledging what other coaches and programs far exceed their own. Just not wired that way. As a matter of profession you see so much of what goes into it and few coaches have that something special. That is what makes them special. I was not raised to hate either. Observe, measure the data, talk to others, what are your own values and standards and then share them on the board or not. I could care less if others think great is different for them. They have every right to feel the way they do. Those that think the full body of work has been mediocre have every right to feel that way.
First of all, didn't anyone ever teach you to use separate paragraphs when you write?

Secondly,
I get what he is saying. Just have a different opinion. We just went 9-11. If we do that again that would be 6 out of 7 years with a losing conference record. Plus never competing for the conference title. It is ok to think that giving 3 more years or 10 more years is fine. I do not. He needs to be at least above .500 to earn another year and i think he will do that. Again, i still do not see a single thing that identifies us. Just a difference of opinion. I do not think he is a top 50 coach that will ever have a resume' of top 25, you know those guys that win multiple conference titles, final 4's, even the title. That is what they are hired to do. There are fans who think Jerry Kill is a great coach, i do not. No big deal. I have seen what great looks like and it is very obvious when you see it. We all have different standards and not for one moment have i declared that mine are better. Every person can make up their own mind. Curious, what does it look like for you if we have 10 losing seasons out of 11 and still have not come anywhere close to a conference title ? Reminding fans that i stand behind this team contending.
First of all, didn't anyone ever teach you to use separate paragraphs when you write?

Secondly, get over yourself. "I have seen what great looks like and it is very obvious when you see it." Everyone has seen what "great" looks like. I don't have to live in Massachusetts and be a Patriots fan to know that they have been a dynasty.

I don't think anyone thinks Jerry Kill was a "great" coach. He was a coach who was good enough to elevate us to the status of being probably the best team in the lower half of the league. At the time, that was good enough but, obviously, most of the fans are happy that we've moved on.

I have a great deal of confidence in Fleck. I think he may be the guy who can take us to the Iowa or even Wisconsin level in football. Having said that, I don't have much confidence he can take us to the Ohio State or Alabama level. I still believe we have too many structural disadvantages to reach that level anytime soon and I think the same disadvantages would keep us from being a team of similar stature in basketball. Nevertheless, we can and should do better than we are doing in basketball.

We have enough evidence that Pitino isn't going to elevate the basketball program to even the level that Kill was able to elevate the football program. After 6 + years, I think we can say that, overall, we have performed better than Rutgers, Northwestern, Nebraska, and Penn State. Perhaps we could add Illinois to the list. However, at least one of those programs has added a coach who has significant potential to elevate that program.

For the time being, I don't care about being "great" but I'm really sick of alternating between decent and bad. We can and should do better.
 

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Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconson, Nebraska -- I believe all such schools have a ceiling in how great their football and men's basketball programs can be, going forward from now, because of the inherent, structural disadvantages they face in the current system of those two major college sports. I think that none of those can ever rise to the level of Alabama in football or Duke in basketball. It's very important then, for leadership at those places to have thoughtful discussion about what is reasonably possible to reach, how they want to go about doing that, and then aggressive spend on facilities/hiring the right coaches they think can get them there.
 

builtbadgers

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Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconson, Nebraska -- I believe all such schools have a ceiling in how great their football and men's basketball programs can be, going forward from now, because of the inherent, structural disadvantages they face in the current system of those two major college sports. I think that none of those can ever rise to the level of Alabama in football or Duke in basketball. It's very important then, for leadership at those places to have thoughtful discussion about what is reasonably possible to reach, how they want to go about doing that, and then aggressive spend on facilities/hiring the right coaches they think can get them there.
Agree in football as it is much tougher. In basketball for the last 9 years Villanova and UVA have done it. Time will tell if they can do it for 20 plus years. UVA has 4 ACC TITLES to Duke zero and have rgier national title. They have 12-15 more wins in the conference just in the last 6 years. What Wright has done at Nova is incredible. Hiring the right coach is super hard but if you do there is no limit to what can be done.
 

MplsGopher

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Agree in football as it is much tougher. In basketball for the last 9 years Villanova and UVA have done it. Time will tell if they can do it for 20 plus years. UVA has 4 ACC TITLES to Duke zero and have rgier national title. They have 12-15 more wins in the conference just in the last 6 years. What Wright has done at Nova is incredible. Hiring the right coach is super hard but if you do there is no limit to what can be done.
Well I’m not just talking about being a have-not/non-blue blood. I’m talking about geographic isolation of Minnesota/Twin Cities to large amounts of population. Nova and UVA don’t suffer the latter.
 

cjbfbp

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Agree in football as it is much tougher. In basketball for the last 9 years Villanova and UVA have done it. Time will tell if they can do it for 20 plus years. UVA has 4 ACC TITLES to Duke zero and have rgier national title. They have 12-15 more wins in the conference just in the last 6 years. What Wright has done at Nova is incredible. Hiring the right coach is super hard but if you do there is no limit to what can be done.
Those are your comparables - Villanova and Virginia? You don't see a difference between Minneapolis on one hand and suburban Philadelphia and Charlottesville on the other?

First of all, there's a significant portion of elite national athletes who simply won't be willing to live up here. Secondly, those places, especially Villanova, are located in much richer recruiting areas. In addition to being within a radius of a very large population area, Villanova is also located within a relatively short distance from many prep schools where a lot of the most elite players are playing these days.

Undoubtedly, Wright is the best coach Villanova has ever had but Villanova has been mostly good for 50 years or more and he's not the first coach to win a title there. Virginia was in a lull before Bennett took over but they were pretty good throughout the eighties and most of the nineties.
 

builtbadgers

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Those are your comparables - Villanova and Virginia? You don't see a difference between Minneapolis on one hand and suburban Philadelphia and Charlottesville on the other?

First of all, there's a significant portion of elite national athletes who simply won't be willing to live up here. Secondly, those places, especially Villanova, are located in much richer recruiting areas. In addition to being within a radius of a very large population area, Villanova is also located within a relatively short distance from many prep schools where a lot of the most elite players are playing these days.

Undoubtedly, Wright is the best coach Villanova has ever had but Villanova has been mostly good for 50 years or more and he's not the first coach to win a title there. Virginia was in a lull before Bennett took over but they were pretty good throughout the eighties and most of the nineties.
Either one would win big here. Bo Ryan would have won big here. Bennett won at Washington State ! He got Klay Thompson to Pullman. He got players from all over to Charlottsville. When pulling the records for a generation you will see how mediocre UVA was.
 

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“Won big”, ok. But I said “rise to the level of Duke”.

Does that mean I accept Pitino, not at all. We can do better. But I don’t believe we can rise to the level of Duke in men’s b-ball.
 

builtbadgers

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Those are your comparables - Villanova and Virginia? You don't see a difference between Minneapolis on one hand and suburban Philadelphia and Charlottesville on the other?

First of all, there's a significant portion of elite national athletes who simply won't be willing to live up here. Secondly, those places, especially Villanova, are located in much richer recruiting areas. In addition to being within a radius of a very large population area, Villanova is also located within a relatively short distance from many prep schools where a lot of the most elite players are playing these days.

Undoubtedly, Wright is the best coach Villanova has ever had but Villanova has been mostly good for 50 years or more and he's not the first coach to win a title there. Virginia was in a lull before Bennett took over but they were pretty good throughout the eighties and most of the nineties.
for the 25 years before Bennett UVA was 176-235 in the ACC . That is a 42 winning %. Inept. Great coaches win no matter where they go. They simply attract, develop players better, teach better. No matter where they find players. Charlottsville is incredible but it has some serious challenges in recruiting. We have a far better campus than Nova. Nova WAS about .500 in the 20 years before Wright.
 

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Either one would win big here. Bo Ryan would have won big here. Bennett won at Washington State ! He got Klay Thompson to Pullman. He got players from all over to Charlottsville. When pulling the records for a generation you will see how mediocre UVA was.
Wright doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would come to Minnesota. I don't know about Bennett. Bo Ryan was a hall of fame coach (easy pick). You can't count on hiring them. Nevertheless, he didn't elevate Wisconsin to the level of Duke or Kentucky. He did go to two consecutive final fours but so did Butler.
 

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Wright doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would come to Minnesota. I don't know about Bennett. Bo Ryan was a hall of fame coach (easy pick). You can't count on hiring them. Nevertheless, he didn't elevate Wisconsin to the level of Duke or Kentucky. He did go to two consecutive final fours but so did Butler.
Who would be a fair comparison to MN then? Texas Tech? Missouri? Washington? MN is sort of a unicorn, but I think with the right guy it won't matter. College basketball is a different beast than football. Butlers and Gonzagas can rise to elite football programs. Football doesn't have as many (Boise State maybe)
 

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We have a far better campus than Nova. Nova WAS about .500 in the 20 years before Wright.
Villanova was 395-252 (a 61% winning percentage) in the 20 years before Wright arrived. I used a spreadsheet. They also went to the NCAA tournament in 12 of those 20 years. Obviously those 20 years weren't as successful as the Wright era but they were significantly above average.

As far as Minnesota having a better campus than Villanova, that is a matter of opinion. Not everyone is into the sprawling, decentralized urban campus environment. U of M has a lot of urban amenities in easy distance but, as I recall, there is a train stop right on the campus of Villanova that can take you into the city.
 

builtbadgers

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Wright doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would come to Minnesota. I don't know about Bennett. Bo Ryan was a hall of fame coach (easy pick). You can't count on hiring them. Nevertheless, he didn't elevate Wisconsin to the level of Duke or Kentucky. He did go to two consecutive final fours but so did Butler.
We can all agree that finding them before the whole nation knows that they will be great is the most difficult part. Since Bennett got his first class through he has been on Dukes level. It can be done. Over time i think Texas Tech will prove elite.
 

cjbfbp

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Who would be a fair comparison to MN then? Texas Tech? Missouri? Washington? MN is sort of a unicorn, but I think with the right guy it won't matter. College basketball is a different beast than football. Butlers and Gonzagas can rise to elite football programs. Football doesn't have as many (Boise State maybe)
You're right. Minnesota is a bit of a unicorn. I recall a discussion about comparables on this board before and people had difficulty coming up with very good ones. I don't know that I could do any better.

Yes, if we can get the right guy, we can do well - probably not as good as the top programs - but much better than we are doing now. Pitino hasn't set a particularly high bar.
 

builtbadgers

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You're right. Minnesota is a bit of a unicorn. I recall a discussion about comparables on this board before and people had difficulty coming up with very good ones. I don't know that I could do any better.

Yes, if we can get the right guy, we can do well - probably not as good as the top programs - but much better than we are doing now. Pitino hasn't set a particularly high bar.
Pitino can get it done now. I am on board. Play lockdown defense, take great shots, do not turn the ball over. Why is it that only a few in any industry simply are better teachers, better leaders. The very best get great results.
 

manderson1984

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Pitino can get it done now. I am on board. Play lockdown defense, take great shots, do not turn the ball over. Why is it that only a few in any industry simply are better teachers, better leaders. The very best get great results.
I still am on board too. Have been for awhile. Will be off if they are terrible this year. Just don’t think they will be and he will earn an NCAA tourney bid and more time. You’re right on being more efficient offensively. I don’t see that yet, but I’ve seen marketable improvement in the defensive end
 
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