recruiting

Gophers7633

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Can not remember or find who asked me to share some data but some may find this interesting. Will preface it by noting that many fans enjoy recruiting rankings. Here are the averages since Pitino started.
NOVA-27TH NATIONALLY
GOPH'S-46TH
UVA-47TH
UW-86TH.

As i noted on several occasions , Pitino has recruited just fine according to sites fans adore. In fact he has out recruited UW 5 out of 6 years. With UVA it was better in 3 of 6 seasons. Did not include 2020 becaus eit is not final. People can draw their own conclusions as to evaluations and development.
It should be noted:

Top 100 guys during this time frame(2013 class included)
Nova - 15
UVA - 8
Gophers - 4

Also it should be noted Pitino's classes in 14 and 15 both had 5 guys in it, thus due to sheer volume are going to be ranked higher. For instance, Pudue, UConn and MD all had 5 stars in that class that ranked lower than us because of class size. I think that's part of the problem with Pitino. He has taken a large number of guys that simply couldn't play at the B1G level. Plus he had a ton of attrition in his first couple of classes.

I think overall his recruiting has gotten better the last couple of years, but I think it's dumb to compare to these other programs in general. And yes he's clearly not the coach Bennett is, but Bennett also landed a 5 player class in 2012 so his next couple classes were low by comparison.
 

builtbadgers

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Yes, last season I thought he absolutely needed to play more guys more minutes.

However, You are all ignoring the eligibility issues beyond his control of all kinds, the injuries, the circumstances (mom dying etc, cell phone gate), the controversy his dad heaped on him. Just a lot of stuff beyond his control that is not...”well, every team goes through that” NO! Not to the degree of wtf he’s been dealing with. Obviously, Coffey’s decision completely blind sided him as another example.

NCAA...Springs gets hurt.
Matz and Murphy get hurt.
You must not follow other programs. Over a 7 year period they all face things out of the control of the coach. The key is not being part of things you could have controlled. He has had innocent misfortune but so has everyone else.
 

builtbadgers

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It should be noted:

Top 100 guys during this time frame(2013 class included)
Nova - 15
UVA - 8
Gophers - 4

Also it should be noted Pitino's classes in 14 and 15 both had 5 guys in it, thus due to sheer volume are going to be ranked higher. For instance, Pudue, UConn and MD all had 5 stars in that class that ranked lower than us because of class size. I think that's part of the problem with Pitino. He has taken a large number of guys that simply couldn't play at the B1G level. Plus he had a ton of attrition in his first couple of classes.

I think overall his recruiting has gotten better the last couple of years, but I think it's dumb to compare to these other programs in general. And yes he's clearly not the coach Bennett is, but Bennett also landed a 5 player class in 2012 so his next couple classes were low by comparison.
All true, great post . I like his recruiting except for the fact he never got or developed his guys that were not ranked when they were signed. UVA's class of 16 was ranked very high by the services but the players committed early way before the services rated them highly so that number is inflated. He also recruited poor characters but he did recruit players good enough to win more than we have by a long shot.
 

builtbadgers

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It should be noted:

Top 100 guys during this time frame(2013 class included)
Nova - 15
UVA - 8
Gophers - 4

Also it should be noted Pitino's classes in 14 and 15 both had 5 guys in it, thus due to sheer volume are going to be ranked higher. For instance, Pudue, UConn and MD all had 5 stars in that class that ranked lower than us because of class size. I think that's part of the problem with Pitino. He has taken a large number of guys that simply couldn't play at the B1G level. Plus he had a ton of attrition in his first couple of classes.

I think overall his recruiting has gotten better the last couple of years, but I think it's dumb to compare to these other programs in general. And yes he's clearly not the coach Bennett is, but Bennett also landed a 5 player class in 2012 so his next couple classes were low by comparison.
Incidentally, appreciate the take of looking at it with thought instead of reaction. Sharing thoughts on the topic is the goal. I do not expect him to be Bennett, he will not do that but he should be able to build a top 4-5 conference program.
 

manderson1984

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NET is having no effect on the teams i follow. Hell, two tears ago UVA dramatically reduced margin of victory by actually playing managers. Of course that could be very different for non elite programs that need every morsel.
I guess I've noticed coaches besides ours that will keep guys in up 8 with 10 seconds left to get a 10 point win if they can and the opposite on the losing part too. Good for UVA they are in a spot where NET isn't that big of a deal. Other bubble teams it matters.
 

Bad Gopher

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Talking purely about recruiting....I think he has done a pretty decent job actually. I think he has shown growth in that area.
  1. Initially he recruited like he coached at Florida and/or Louisville. He set his sites too high and ended up with the two bigs who ate up 8 years of scholarship. I really don't feel like he has made the same mistakes recently. Too early to say this about Greenlee and Freeman.
  2. He hasn't recruited bad character guys in the last few years. McNeil was his recruit before he even started here. Dorsey was definitely a cancer that was quickly removed from the team but also very early in his tenure. Lofton had a short leash and was also quickly removed before he could do too much damage. Lynch in my mind was really the tipping point of the Pitino tenure -- such a waste on Lynch's part. But I do not see any of those issues in the last few classes.
  3. Spring recruiting has been a strength. It's a free for all with all the transfers now but he has done a pretty good job navigating the transfer market. Anti-Pitino posters will point to Brock Stull. But he has also found some pretty nice players in the spring -- Murphy, Springs, Carr, Stockman (underutilized) and Demir (undervalued). The jury is out on the three players he signed in the last two weeks.
  4. MN Kids.....nothing is debated more on this site. It's revisionist history to complain about Hurt. Any time any kid from MN signs elsewhere it is viewed as Pitino's fault. All MN kids grow up hoping to be Gophers - blah blah blah. At the time, Hurt was the second ranked recruit in MN with a stud younger brother. Nobody was on here criticizing the signing. Everybody adds a star to high school kids from MN. I understand the frustration with kids signing at Wisconsin, but the reasons for their relative success is a little more complex than purely signing MN talent.
Again....just talking about recruiting. I would have a different evaluation about some of the other responsibilities of a head coach.
If your point 1 is really true, why was this past year's roster the shallowest we've seen yet? He couldn't trust anyone.
 

golfing18now

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If your point 1 is really true, why was this past year's roster the shallowest we've seen yet? He couldn't trust anyone.
That's a fair question Bad Gopher. The point I was making in #1 is we don't have players eating up four years of scholarships. I"m just not ready to say Freeman or Greenlee meet that threshold after one year. It certainly is possible I suppose. Hurt and Omersa are certainly not all-conference players but MN kids that represent the university well. Having MN kids has some instrisic value for many on this board. The Rudrud scholarship was a wasted year.

I would probably characterize last year's roster in groups....I will grant you we need a couple more in the first column (Curry would have been in that first column). Play 10 -- trust 9 or something like that at minimum.

Trusted: Carr, Oturu, Kalscheur, Willis, Demir, Williams, Curry (if healthy)

Situational: Omersa, Ihnen, Hurt

Essentially red-shirted: Freeman, Greenlee

Walk-On scholarship: Rudrud
 

builtbadgers

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I guess I've noticed coaches besides ours that will keep guys in up 8 with 10 seconds left to get a 10 point win if they can and the opposite on the losing part too. Good for UVA they are in a spot where NET isn't that big of a deal. Other bubble teams it matters.
It is a fine line. Lets say the clock is running and the Gophers are up 8 with 12 seconds left and we are on defense . we commit a foul at 10 seconds. They hit a free throw, miss the second and hit a three with 7 seconds to go, now it is a four point game. We want our coach to keep our guys in. I have seen K run it up. I saw UVA up 28 with 4 minutes left, Bennett puts the walkon's and 2 managers in for 4 minutes. The opponent scores the last 19 to make it a 9 point final. The other team benefits, it hurts UVA. I have said before it is not a perfect system but it is only one of the tools used. As others pointed out, wins should be the overall most powerful factor with who you beat and where but since there is no way for everyone to play each other it was the coaches who wanted use of kenpom, NET, and the winning part. I have seen a 13 point comeback in 47 seconds because the starters came out and without a timeout or a deadball the coach could not get his guys back in. Some coaches believe you should slaughter the other team to the end. I am with you in not really caring about the margin for credit.
 

manderson1984

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It is a fine line. Lets say the clock is running and the Gophers are up 8 with 12 seconds left and we are on defense . we commit a foul at 10 seconds. They hit a free throw, miss the second and hit a three with 7 seconds to go, now it is a four point game. We want our coach to keep our guys in. I have seen K run it up. I saw UVA up 28 with 4 minutes left, Bennett puts the walkon's and 2 managers in for 4 minutes. The opponent scores the last 19 to make it a 9 point final. The other team benefits, it hurts UVA. I have said before it is not a perfect system but it is only one of the tools used. As others pointed out, wins should be the overall most powerful factor with who you beat and where but since there is no way for everyone to play each other it was the coaches who wanted use of kenpom, NET, and the winning part. I have seen a 13 point comeback in 47 seconds because the starters came out and without a timeout or a deadball the coach could not get his guys back in. Some coaches believe you should slaughter the other team to the end. I am with you in not really caring about the margin for credit.
Agree, and I don’t think there is a perfect system, I do think the system matters when we look at MPG averages and things like that. We whine about Carr getting overused when most teams will use their top guys that much or close to, problem with us last year was we had too many close games.
 

builtbadgers

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Agree, and I don’t think there is a perfect system, I do think the system matters when we look at MPG averages and things like that. We whine about Carr getting overused when most teams will use their top guys that much or close to, problem with us last year was we had too many close games.
Agree. I saw guards that played that many minutes in all close games and seldom saw that he was compromised. With TV timeouts and timeouts and dead ball situations these guards should handle 38 -40 if called upon.
 

manderson1984

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Agree. I saw guards that played that many minutes in all close games and seldom saw that he was compromised. With TV timeouts and timeouts and dead ball situations these guards should handle 38 -40 if called upon.
Bingo!! Some forget those unless they are at games sometimes. They just see the number.
 

Chucklehead

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Last years recruiting was bad. Greenlee plays at the level of a walk-on. Who knows about Freeman? Maybe we'll get lucky and be .500 next year.
 

Former Goofer

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Since Pitino gets such praise for recruiting maybe he should be held to the same standard when it comes to wins and getting to the NCAA tournament.
 

bc2211

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Kind of skimmed through the thread here to get caught up.... has anyone brought up the lack of continuity on Pitino’s rosters year in and year out?

My opinion is that Pitino has done a reasonably good job of bringing in talent, but too few of them stick it out or last through their senior year.

2013:
McNeil kicked off before (or early in) sophomore year

2014:
Josh Martin transfers during freshman season
Mason, konate, Diedhou, all play four years

2015:
Kevin Dorsey kicked off team after freshman year
Gilbert transfers after freshman year
Murphy plays all years
Dupree plays all four years
Jarvis manages all four years


2016 (last years seniors):
Hurt plays through senior year
Coffey plays through junior year, goes undrafted
Curry unfortunately injury ridden

2017 (last years juniors):
IW transfers after sophomore year
Jamir Harris transfers after freshman year

2016 (last years sophomores):
Oturu declares for draft after sophomore year
Omersa still on roster
Gabe still on roster

Tossing out curry and Jarvis, ONLY HALF of Pitino’s high school recruits played all four years. Surely Pitino should not be penalized for Oturu and Coffey getting the calls from the NBA, but Pitino’s inability to retain his recruits is maddening. I feel like Pitino has done an overall excellent job at finding talented players to fill those departures, but I believe we suffer as a team because we have too many moving pieces each year.
 

Spaulding!No!

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Kind of skimmed through the thread here to get caught up.... has anyone brought up the lack of continuity on Pitino’s rosters year in and year out?

My opinion is that Pitino has done a reasonably good job of bringing in talent, but too few of them stick it out or last through their senior year.

2013:
McNeil kicked off before (or early in) sophomore year

2014:
Josh Martin transfers during freshman season
Mason, konate, Diedhou, all play four years

2015:
Kevin Dorsey kicked off team after freshman year
Gilbert transfers after freshman year
Murphy plays all years
Dupree plays all four years
Jarvis manages all four years


2016 (last years seniors):
Hurt plays through senior year
Coffey plays through junior year, goes undrafted
Curry unfortunately injury ridden

2017 (last years juniors):
IW transfers after sophomore year
Jamir Harris transfers after freshman year

2016 (last years sophomores):
Oturu declares for draft after sophomore year
Omersa still on roster
Gabe still on roster

Tossing out curry and Jarvis, ONLY HALF of Pitino’s high school recruits played all four years. Surely Pitino should not be penalized for Oturu and Coffey getting the calls from the NBA, but Pitino’s inability to retain his recruits is maddening. I feel like Pitino has done an overall excellent job at finding talented players to fill those departures, but I believe we suffer as a team because we have too many moving pieces each year.
You know the kids you need to choose to get continuity right?
 

manderson1984

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And then overtime hit and he was totally gassed.
it was one game. Also do we get to OT with him not playing? It’s a hindsight argument and my main point is it’s not unreasonable for you top players to play that many minutes in close games.
 

builtbadgers

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it was one game. Also do we get to OT with him not playing? It’s a hindsight argument and my main point is it’s not unreasonable for you top players to play that many minutes in close games.
Your right. As you know, big time players have played 45 minutes of high intensity minutes of extreme pressure, against the best competition and thrived. Nation title thrived, just two days after a heavy load against extreme pressure.
 

Parcival

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it was one game. Also do we get to OT with him not playing? It’s a hindsight argument and my main point is it’s not unreasonable for you top players to play that many minutes in close games.
We got robbed in that game anyway. To say Carr was the reason we lost is comical, there were a dozen missed calls in the 2nd half.
 

EG#9

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Can not remember or find who asked me to share some data but some may find this interesting. Will preface it by noting that many fans enjoy recruiting rankings. Here are the averages since Pitino started.
NOVA-27TH NATIONALLY
GOPH'S-46TH
UVA-47TH
UW-86TH.

As i noted on several occasions , Pitino has recruited just fine according to sites fans adore. In fact he has out recruited UW 5 out of 6 years. With UVA it was better in 3 of 6 seasons. Did not include 2020 becaus eit is not final. People can draw their own conclusions as to evaluations and development.
Assuming these averages are accurate, it shows that the Gophers would miss the NCAA's more often than not assuming equal coaching (a little under 40 power 5/6 teams typically make the NCAA's) and that UVA and UW (and likely others) are outperforming their recruiting. If your stance is the recruiting is fine because these schools do it without high ranked classes, I'd disagree with you. If Pitino is getting outrecruited by Marquette and out coached by Wisconsin and Iowa...what is the path forward? He's got to improve in one area or the other and he's had plenty of time to do so. I don't think it has to be an either or proposition or that either route (better coaching or better recruiting) has significantly more merit than the other.
 

builtbadgers

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Assuming these averages are accurate, it shows that the Gophers would miss the NCAA's more often than not assuming equal coaching (a little under 40 power 5/6 teams typically make the NCAA's) and that UVA and UW (and likely others) are outperforming their recruiting. If your stance is the recruiting is fine because these schools do it without high ranked classes, I'd disagree with you. If Pitino is getting outrecruited by Marquette and out coached by Wisconsin and Iowa...what is the path forward? He's got to improve in one area or the other and he's had plenty of time to do so. I don't think it has to be an either or proposition or that either route (better coaching or better recruiting) has significantly more merit than the other.
Better coaching is by far the largest factor in any elite level of success. Those responsibilities include recruiting. That starts with evaluation, how you do it and whom. The ratings do not matter to the best evaluators because they are better at it than internet scouting fan sites. Then of course they need to be a great teacher, have great leadership skills. All of this is tied to a culture that you represent. The best coaches out perform the recruiting rankings by a long shot.
 

Go Gophs

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I still don't see him as a good recruiter. Alot of time he is bringing in classes of 3-4 and 1, possibly 2 ever even plays. Yes, it's good to get high end guys. It's even better to get a high end guy and the other half our your class that can actually play. I think it's wasteful and dumb to offer scholarships to guys like Greenlee or Konate, etc. Just let them sit open if you are going to bring in D2 talent with them and wait until you can get someone that can play.

This year and next will really show how poor of a job he's done with recruiting. The roster was very shallow and not very talented this year. It has a good chance to be even worse next year. We will see, but I look at Richard as a bottom 1/3 of the conference recruiter.
 

builtbadgers

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Really wonderful get for Northwestern getting Roper as a future. That is someone UW was on for a long time.
 

manderson1984

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I still don't see him as a good recruiter. Alot of time he is bringing in classes of 3-4 and 1, possibly 2 ever even plays. Yes, it's good to get high end guys. It's even better to get a high end guy and the other half our your class that can actually play. I think it's wasteful and dumb to offer scholarships to guys like Greenlee or Konate, etc. Just let them sit open if you are going to bring in D2 talent with them and wait until you can get someone that can play.

This year and next will really show how poor of a job he's done with recruiting. The roster was very shallow and not very talented this year. It has a good chance to be even worse next year. We will see, but I look at Richard as a bottom 1/3 of the conference recruiter.
Greenlee can and is a D1 player. Whether he's a high level B1G player can be a fair discussion. I get your point on recruiting to a point, but I see it more in development personally. I think we have kids who are talented, good citizens, and seem to work hard. I also think our recruiting the last couple years has gotten significantly better because I see a purpose and "type" that we seem to go after. The fact is many recruits will not play or be significant players on your rosters. You look at hope to hit on 1-2 a class as a starter/major contributor and then hopefully 1-2 that can be solid role guys off your bench. What is very hard to overcome is having a IW and Jamir group that didn't have any stay, but we also replaced Jamir with Marcus Carr. I think his early classes were a disaster and he attempted shortcuts, I don't see that as much anymore and personally think recruiting is an area he's improved on. That being said he's still only middle of the pack in our conference because we have some lite recruiters in the B1G
 
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