Rand: Is it time to consider re-hanging the 1997 Final Four banner at Williams Arena?

BleedGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
51,323
Reaction score
1,508
Points
113
per RandBall:

For nearly 19 years, the symbol of the Gophers men’s basketball team’s greatest on-court accomplishment and biggest off-court shame has been absent from the public eye.

At 5 a.m. Wednesday, Oct. 26, 2000, the banner from the men’s program’s lone Final Four appearance was taken down from the Williams Arena rafters as part of the extensive punishment for the school’s academic fraud scandal.

Why so early in the day? Per a Star Tribune story from the time: to avoid prying eyes, according to school officials. And according to a story a month later, the 1997 banner was “stashed in some closet,” where it presumably has been gathering dust for the better part of two decades.

But in light of a recent NCAA decision, Star Tribune Gophers men’s basketball beat writer Marcus Fuller asked his followers on Twitter a question: Should the banners from those vacated seasons go back up again?

But let’s examine the issue a little more closely.

First, the NCAA decision in question, as noted by Inside Higher Education: After the University of North Carolina somehow evaded NCAA sanctions after creating “fake classes that largely benefited athletes for nearly two decades,” a committee created by the NCAA recommended the governing body “pass a bylaw that gave it broader authority to punish institutions that engage in academic fraud.”

But in August, the NCAA’s Board of Directors declined to support the proposal, which means per IHE that the bylaw “will not be voted on by the larger NCAA membership.”

It’s not hard to see why this would make many people — including Gophers fans — upset. Why does North Carolina get to keep its championships and banners? And why does the NCAA, which came down so hard on Minnesota in its academic fraud case, not want to adopt a bylaw to help punish future offenders?

http://www.startribune.com/is-it-ti...inal-four-banner-at-williams-arena/559583022/

Go Gophers!!
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,896
Reaction score
1,600
Points
113
No thanks. Just because UNC used a huge defense team to cover their scum does not mean we should ignore our cheating by putting a banner up that we did not deserve. I would never want to win anything by cheating.
 

BarnBurner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
717
Points
113
Lots of banners all over America should come down then, correct?
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,896
Reaction score
1,600
Points
113
Lots of banners all over America should come down then, correct?
Every person, every school, every program has to decide how they conduct themselves. Just because UNC-cheat DOES THINGS ONE WAY does not mean we have to be like them . Louisville took a title banner down and did not put it back up, same for a Nova FINAL 4 banner. It is my opinion that when you cheat to win something that you did not win anything. I do not want to support a program that thinks cheating, sacrificing your standards and ethics is worth it over a final 4 banner. My opinion. Some people think it is ok to cheat in a game of golf, i do not. Just because someone else does it has no influence on how i conduct myself.
 

Go4

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
3,531
Reaction score
147
Points
63
put the banner back up.
 

bemidjigopher

Banned
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
7,149
Reaction score
0
Points
36
As of 2012, banner was in a storage closet at Mariucci

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
397
Reaction score
138
Points
43
No thanks. Just because UNC used a huge defense team to cover their scum does not mean we should ignore our cheating by putting a banner up that we did not deserve. I would never want to win anything by cheating.
1 Just because we had a defense team that sucked does not mean that we should be punished more than other schools. Could we have had worse leadership at that time?
2 Lawyers are generally the lowest people on the planet but when everyone else is using them we need to bring in the hired guns too - or be the "chumps" that allow the NCAA to make an example of us so they don't have to punish UNC.
3 The team did not gain any advantage in games by their school life being easy. Probably would have had a better, more well disciplined team without Ganglehoff.
4 The school should revoke completed classes and take away degrees if someone is cheating on schoolwork. Coaches work for the university and have a responsibility.
5 Forcing the fans to pretend that the season did not happen is a bizarre way to punish the evildoers (seriously, that is the plan?)
6 "I would never want to win anything by cheating." - as it turns out, none of us here on the gopherhole or sitting in the stands did any cheating.
7 Cheating to win basketball game is by pulling a Davidson with a cheap shot to the groin and not turning in a paper that you didn't do - that is called cheating at school.
8 NCAA is a monopoly which should be taken apart with extreme prejudice.

Put the banner back up and move on.
 

GopherBlood666

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
1,004
Reaction score
324
Points
83
1 Just because we had a defense team that sucked does not mean that we should be punished more than other schools. Could we have had worse leadership at that time?
2 Lawyers are generally the lowest people on the planet but when everyone else is using them we need to bring in the hired guns too - or be the "chumps" that allow the NCAA to make an example of us so they don't have to punish UNC.
3 The team did not gain any advantage in games by their school life being easy. Probably would have had a better, more well disciplined team without Ganglehoff.
4 The school should revoke completed classes and take away degrees if someone is cheating on schoolwork. Coaches work for the university and have a responsibility.
5 Forcing the fans to pretend that the season did not happen is a bizarre way to punish the evildoers (seriously, that is the plan?)
6 "I would never want to win anything by cheating." - as it turns out, none of us here on the gopherhole or sitting in the stands did any cheating.
7 Cheating to win basketball game is by pulling a Davidson with a cheap shot to the groin and not turning in a paper that you didn't do - that is called cheating at school.
8 NCAA is a monopoly which should be taken apart with extreme prejudice.

Put the banner back up and move on.
I agree with 99% of this but when you acknowledge they cheated at school, that would make them academically ineligible to be on the team, therefore any game they played in once they had officially cheated at school would need to be forfeited because you were using a player that should not have been available to be on the floor. The only reason I would be willing to look the other way is due to the rampant cheating at other schools not being made to forfeit victories, therefore is it really cheating if others are doing it with no consequences? Built is definitely correct with his stance, but I can't say I don't agree with CPTMidnight either.
 

oak_street1981

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
3,324
Reaction score
277
Points
83
I'd be thrilled to see it put back up, but it is not going back up anytime soon, even as the NCAA continues to be exposed as a corrupt and terminally ill entity.

Maybe in 50 years when most of us are dead, and the NCAA as currently composed is long gone, someone might decide to put it up somewhere.
 
Last edited:

macgopher

Active member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
1,912
Reaction score
24
Points
38
I'd be thrilled to see it put back up, but it is not going back up anytime soon, even as the NCAA continues to be exposed as a corrupt and terminally ill entity.

Maybe in 50 years when most of us are dead, and the NCAA as currently composed is long gone, someone might decide to put it up somewhere.
OK, don't put that banner back up, but for an honor of some accomplishment put up a banner showing a picture of every player on the roster that year?
 

Chico Gopher

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
100
Reaction score
68
Points
28
6 "I would never want to win anything by cheating." - as it turns out, none of us here on the gopherhole or sitting in the stands did any cheating.

None of us were on the team, so what fans or posters did or did not do has nothing to do with what the 97 team was punished for. You honestly think that forfeiting that season is actually somehow punishing you and I as fans?

I get the feeling that some believe that because one (or some) schools get away with it, then the Gophers should too. My folks always told me that "2 wrongs don't make a right" and "just because other guy did something wrong and avoided the consequences doesn't get me off the hook.".

Once you start taking the "Other Guy" philosophy with one situation, the next thing you know, you'll start sacrificing your standards in other situations.
 

bc2211

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
1,192
Reaction score
131
Points
63
Only reason to put it up is a protest to the NCAA hypocrisy and bring more attention to UNC, but I don’t think anyone wins in that scenario. But then again, gophers aren’t winning now, so maybe it would be better to try to protest the decision about UNC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
397
Reaction score
138
Points
43
6 "I would never want to win anything by cheating." - as it turns out, none of us here on the gopherhole or sitting in the stands did any cheating.

None of us were on the team, so what fans or posters did or did not do has nothing to do with what the 97 team was punished for. You honestly think that forfeiting that season is actually somehow punishing you and I as fans?

I get the feeling that some believe that because one (or some) schools get away with it, then the Gophers should too. My folks always told me that "2 wrongs don't make a right" and "just because other guy did something wrong and avoided the consequences doesn't get me off the hook.".

Once you start taking the "Other Guy" philosophy with one situation, the next thing you know, you'll start sacrificing your standards in other situations.
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning. What your parents should have told you is that if the rules applied to you are not the same rules as everyone else you should stand your ground and fight. It is time to punch the bully in the nose.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if we are looking backwards the U should have hired a killer legal team and just told the NCAA that that Clem had been fired, degrees revoked and measures taken to ensure it would not happen again - but under no circumstances would the University allow the fans or non-participating athletes or future athletes to be punished via long term punitive actions. Furthermore if other universities are allowed to get away with it we would immediate recognize all games and put up our banners again. Of course we would have ended up settling with the NCAA with a middle ground punishment (just like any other normal university would do)

Never happen though as this is Minnesota.
 
Last edited:

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,896
Reaction score
1,600
Points
113
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning. What your parents should have told you is that if the rules applied to you are not the same rules as everyone else you should stand your ground and fight. It is time to punch the bully in the nose.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if we are looking backwards the U should have hired a killer legal team and just told the NCAA that that Clem had been fired, degrees revoked and measures taken to ensure it would not happen again - but under no circumstances would the University allow the fans or non-participating athletes or future athletes to be punished via long term punitive actions. Furthermore if other universities are allowed to get away with it we would immediate recognize all games and put up our banners again. Of course we would have ended up settling with the NCAA with a middle ground punishment (just like any other normal university would do)

Never happen though as this is Minnesota.
How about just not cheating. That way when we win it there will be no slime involved. Others have done it completely clean and there is truly something special about that. If others cheat to win, that is on them.
 

stocker08

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
19,894
Reaction score
1,303
Points
113
How about just not cheating. That way when we win it there will be no slime involved. Others have done it completely clean and there is truly something special about that. If others cheat to win, that is on them.
You don't seem to get it. When the NCAA creates a different set of rules for different Universities....it creates an unlevel playing field. The blue bloods and the helmet schools basically get a slap on the wrist and are allowed to continue to claim their status without punishment.

Teams like Minnesota have their successes vacated and their programs dismantled. Teams like UNC get that slap on the wrist, continue to be worshipped and favored by the NCAA, and enjoy endless promotion.

Worth mentioning that UNCs academic discretions were FAR worse than anything Minnesota had going on. They had entire sham programs in comparison to....what....a tutor that had been writing papers an unknown number of times for an unknown number of basketball players?

I'm not trying to excuse any sort of cheating. But from their accomplishments ON the court...there wasn't any cheating. And if the NCAA wants to be the all powerful judge, jury, and executioner....they should apply the laws uniformly or be prepared to face the criticism and potential mutiny that's been discussed for years now.

Speaking of different rules for different tiers of teams....transfer portal. The NCAA has played favorites for way too long.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

Chico Gopher

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
100
Reaction score
68
Points
28
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning.

So if one guy gets away with speeding 85 in a 70mph zone, then everybody should be allowed to do it and nobody should get a speeding ticket? If one guy gets away with shoplifting, we should all be allowed to shoplift? Because one offensive tackle got away with holding, that penalty should never be called on anybody else during a game?

Just because somebody else got away with it, doesn't make it OK for me to get away with it, especially if that's my reasoning. I know I have zero trust in anybody who actually has that attitude about life.
 

BarnBurner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
717
Points
113
You don't seem to get it. When the NCAA creates a different set of rules for different Universities....it creates an unlevel playing field. The blue bloods and the helmet schools basically get a slap on the wrist and are allowed to continue to claim their status without punishment.

Teams like Minnesota have their successes vacated and their programs dismantled. Teams like UNC get that slap on the wrist, continue to be worshipped and favored by the NCAA, and enjoy endless promotion.

Worth mentioning that UNCs academic discretions were FAR worse than anything Minnesota had going on. They had entire sham programs in comparison to....what....a tutor that had been writing papers an unknown number of times for an unknown number of basketball players?

I'm not trying to excuse any sort of cheating. But from their accomplishments ON the court...there wasn't any cheating. And if the NCAA wants to be the all powerful judge, jury, and executioner....they should apply the laws uniformly or be prepared to face the criticism and potential mutiny that's been discussed for years now.

Speaking of different rules for different tiers of teams....transfer portal. The NCAA has played favorites for way too long.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Oh My!!!!!!! I am sure GH BB heirarchy will now come down hard on strzoker!

Stocker nailed it!!!!!!
 

Holy Man

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
3,774
Reaction score
243
Points
63
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning.

So if one guy gets away with speeding 85 in a 70mph zone, then everybody should be allowed to do it and nobody should get a speeding ticket? If one guy gets away with shoplifting, we should all be allowed to shoplift? Because one offensive tackle got away with holding, that penalty should never be called on anybody else during a game?

Just because somebody else got away with it, doesn't make it OK for me to get away with it, especially if that's my reasoning. I know I have zero trust in anybody who actually has that attitude about life.
I appreciate the analogy and the sentiment that goes behind it. We live in a "it's legal if you don't get caught" culture, which is unhealthy on many levels. However, the analogy falls short in the current scenario in that the the shoplifter and the speeder who "get away with it" are not caught. No one gave them a pass. In the unequal administration of punishment by the NCAA, everyone was caught, but the consequences were not equally applied. That's what has my blood boiling and I think a lot of posters who are locked in on this. UNC getting no punishment for a decades long fraud while Minnesota and others getting hammered is egregiously unfair application of punishment and everyone knows it. The NCAA waiving the right to apply punishment is mind boggling at best, and completely corrupt at worst.

For the record, unless it is done for reasons of visible protest of the NCAA's punishment mechanisms, I am not in favor of raising the 1997 banner either, but I completely understand why others want it back up.
 

Ope3

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
346
Points
83
The Gophers infractions extended to their best player's work while still a JUCO. They cheated to even get him on campus. Leave the banners* in the closet.

*The Big 10 banner actually bums me out more than the Final 4.
 
Last edited:

BarnBurner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
717
Points
113
I appreciate the analogy and the sentiment that goes behind it. We live in a "it's legal if you don't get caught" culture, which is unhealthy on many levels. However, the analogy falls short in the current scenario in that the the shoplifter and the speeder who "get away with it" are not caught. No one gave them a pass. In the unequal administration of punishment by the NCAA, everyone was caught, but the consequences were not equally applied. That's what has my blood boiling and I think a lot of posters who are locked in on this. UNC getting no punishment for a decades long fraud while Minnesota and others getting hammered is egregiously unfair application of punishment and everyone knows it. The NCAA waiving the right to apply punishment is mind boggling at best, and completely corrupt at worst.

For the record, unless it is done for reasons of visible protest of the NCAA's punishment mechanisms, I am not in favor of raising the 1997 banner either, but I completely understand why others want it back up.
Stop with the details. Built is bored with them, along with soooo very many Gopher fans.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,896
Reaction score
1,600
Points
113
Stop with the details. Built is bored with them, along with soooo very many Gopher fans.
Not bored. Just have my own standards of how i like to see things done. Never said my way is better, only that it is my way. I really like it when it is hard to get kids in, that they take school seriously, actually have to. Take advantage of a 500,000 scholarship, play sound basketball and win, never fear having to give something back. Sure UNC DID NOT HAVE TOO but they smeared their own name of a respected public school. If they have no shame and they dont, that is a reflection of who they are. I simply prefer following rules. I wish consequences were suffered by all who cheat but that is not how it works. Has no influence on how i want to conduct myself or the teams i choose to support.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
45,724
Reaction score
3,802
Points
113
Put it back up. We served our punishment, and the "pretend something that happened didn't happen" portion of the punishment is moronic.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 22, 2008
Messages
45,724
Reaction score
3,802
Points
113
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning.

So if one guy gets away with speeding 85 in a 70mph zone, then everybody should be allowed to do it and nobody should get a speeding ticket? If one guy gets away with shoplifting, we should all be allowed to shoplift? Because one offensive tackle got away with holding, that penalty should never be called on anybody else during a game?

Just because somebody else got away with it, doesn't make it OK for me to get away with it, especially if that's my reasoning. I know I have zero trust in anybody who actually has that attitude about life.
That's not what this is though. We know that there are schools who have cheated and not gotten caught. But UNC got caught. If you get pulled over for going 75 and get a ticket and the guy behind you gets pulled over for going 85 and gets a warning, that's inequitable application of the law.
 

BarnBurner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
717
Points
113
Not bored. Just have my own standards of how i like to see things done. Never said my way is better, only that it is my way. I really like it when it is hard to get kids in, that they take school seriously, actually have to. Take advantage of a 500,000 scholarship, play sound basketball and win, never fear having to give something back. Sure UNC DID NOT HAVE TOO but they smeared their own name of a respected public school. If they have no shame and they dont, that is a reflection of who they are. I simply prefer following rules. I wish consequences were suffered by all who cheat but that is not how it works. Has no influence on how i want to conduct myself or the teams i choose to support.
So does Roy and K and........they win big and are hailed as BB royalty.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
397
Reaction score
138
Points
43
If the rules are not applied equitably the rules have no meaning.

So if one guy gets away with speeding 85 in a 70mph zone, then everybody should be allowed to do it and nobody should get a speeding ticket? If one guy gets away with shoplifting, we should all be allowed to shoplift? Because one offensive tackle got away with holding, that penalty should never be called on anybody else during a game?

Just because somebody else got away with it, doesn't make it OK for me to get away with it, especially if that's my reasoning. I know I have zero trust in anybody who actually has that attitude about life.
The people involved were fired in disgrace or expelled for doing something that everyone agrees was wrong - what more do you want? What are you actually talking about? Do you feel bad that we were not punished more? Perhaps a couple more years of lost scholarships? Perhaps Pitino has to bow his head and say he is "sorry for past sins" at the beginning of each press conference. Perhaps you should man-up a bit.

Just because you are afraid of pushing back against a powerful system doesn't mean that everyone should cower in the corner. I have zero trust in anyone who actually has that attitude about life.
 

WoodburyTim

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2016
Messages
1,398
Reaction score
82
Points
48
I appreciate the analogy and the sentiment that goes behind it. We live in a "it's legal if you don't get caught" culture, which is unhealthy on many levels. However, the analogy falls short in the current scenario in that the the shoplifter and the speeder who "get away with it" are not caught. No one gave them a pass. In the unequal administration of punishment by the NCAA, everyone was caught, but the consequences were not equally applied. That's what has my blood boiling and I think a lot of posters who are locked in on this. UNC getting no punishment for a decades long fraud while Minnesota and others getting hammered is egregiously unfair application of punishment and everyone knows it. The NCAA waiving the right to apply punishment is mind boggling at best, and completely corrupt at worst.

For the record, unless it is done for reasons of visible protest of the NCAA's punishment mechanisms, I am not in favor of raising the 1997 banner either, but I completely understand why others want it back up.
The NCAA is not responsible for the academic standards of the individual universities. It's crappy and sucks but UNC's offenses were outside of what the NCAA was created by their membership schools to do.

Sadly I think part of the reason everyone wants to hand the NCAA for the UNC thing is, because too many people want to close their eyes to the absolute joke that higher education is. Look at all the posters on here. They blame the NCAA for this. This was about UNC(and many other universities BTW) that essentially have fake classes, in UNC's case for politcal reasons, but there are very few organizations with the politcal pull of higher education. So people scapegoat the NCAA because they don't want to actually stand up to the true disgrace here.
 

Chico Gopher

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
100
Reaction score
68
Points
28
The people involved were fired in disgrace or expelled for doing something that everyone agrees was wrong - what more do you want? What are you actually talking about? Do you feel bad that we were not punished more? Perhaps a couple more years of lost scholarships? Perhaps Pitino has to bow his head and say he is "sorry for past sins" at the beginning of each press conference. Perhaps you should man-up a bit.

Just because you are afraid of pushing back against a powerful system doesn't mean that everyone should cower in the corner. I have zero trust in anyone who actually has that attitude about life.


So in other words, because somebody else got away with it, you feel you should get a pass too. When you break the rules, and get caught, you pay the penalty. Just because somebody else got away with it, doesn't somehow make the fact that you broke the rules magically go away.

Not sure where you got the idea that I think the program should be punished some more. I never said that. Bottom line, Gophers cheated, got penalized, maybe worse than they deserved or worse than other programs, but the fact remains that the Gophers cheated.

Again, my analogy. Just because the guy going 85 in front of you didn't get a speeding ticket doesn't mean you don't deserve one if you were also speeding. Take the punishment like a man (which the program seems to be doing) and remember to never do it again. As opposed to whining like a 10 year old "But Dean got away with it!".
 

Ski U Mah Gopher

Member of the Tribe
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,783
Reaction score
102
Points
63
The Gophers infractions extended to their best player's work while still a JUCO. They cheated to even get him on campus. Leave the banners* in the closet.

*The Big 10 banner actually bums me out more than the Final 4.
^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the real crime.
 

gopherguy15

Active member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
408
Reaction score
84
Points
28
Raise the banner back up, take a picture, then tweet that picture to the NCAA... and simply say "Your move." For added effect, insert #UNC.
 

stocker08

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
19,894
Reaction score
1,303
Points
113
The people involved were fired in disgrace or expelled for doing something that everyone agrees was wrong - what more do you want? What are you actually talking about? Do you feel bad that we were not punished more? Perhaps a couple more years of lost scholarships? Perhaps Pitino has to bow his head and say he is "sorry for past sins" at the beginning of each press conference. Perhaps you should man-up a bit.

Just because you are afraid of pushing back against a powerful system doesn't mean that everyone should cower in the corner. I have zero trust in anyone who actually has that attitude about life.
This.

It's okay to be against putting the banners back up. But anyone ignoring the shameless conduct by the NCAA and taking a 'holier than thou' stance on the entire subject is a lukewarm fan at best. It's bogus rulings like this that allows UNC to remain atop the college basketball world while the Minnesota's of the world are doomed to mediocrity. All because the NCAA has the power to pick and choose favorites.

What would the trajectory of the Gophers basketball program have been had the NCAA given them the UNC treatment back in 1998?
 
Top Bottom