***OFFICIAL ILLINOIS AT MINNESOTA IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

MplsGopher

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I'm not a fan of the raised floor. Watched the highlights and a couple of times our players almost fell off after running hard to the basket.
Uh, their player did slide completely off it. Onto his back. That will be sore today, I'm sure.

It is really amazing that a major, career ending injury hasn't happened. Like a guy flying off and then down a stairwell and becoming paralyzed.

That's all it would take, and the U would be sued into oblivion for negligence. How do they not see that?
 

USAF

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As a few others have said....I haven't been outspoken about dumping Pitino....but this game really seals my opinion.
You've just now came to this conclusion?

It's been pretty obvious for several years now.

He can't coach well enough to overcome his recruiting, and he doesn't recruit well enough to overcome his coaching.

Said that years ago.
 

cjbfbp

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im with you. Several promising years seemed to be lost to circumstances arguably beyond his immediate control. Lynch’s troubles, Mason’s end of year hip, Coffey leaving early, and Oturu leaving early all contributed to disappointing seasons. I never felt like he was responsible for those factors, and I always saw a positive looking future.
Let's dig a little deeper into this. Occasional players leaving early for a professional career is a good thing for a program's reputation. All teams have injuries from time to time. Robbins playing yesterday (and the game before) gives an indication of why injuries on Pitino teams seem to have a way of lasting.

While it was almost inevitable that Pitino's 2018 team would take a tumble after Lynch's suspension and Coffey's injury, I don't feel that it was inevitable for the team would go 2-14 after that. Pitino's teams are always one or two injuries away from absolute disaster. That speaks to poor roster construction/development and inability to adjust to changing circumstances. There's never been a "next man up" psychology under Pitino.
 

cjbfbp

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Bobby Knights son could not coach and Knight was one of the best teachers of all time. A person is either a really gifted teacher or not. Everyone should be able to recall one special teacher they had growing up, one who stood head and shoulders above the rest. Try and remember how they could make you better than they thought you could be. Then imagine how do do that on a collective team of moving parts, how to buy in to defense or not play ! Do not like Bo Ryan as a person but he would finish top 4 with this roster. As for recruiting . We have equalled UVA and UW over 10 years, some better, some worse se either the evaluations are worse and the teaching and development or both. It is pretty hard to have losing conference records in 7 of 8 years and anyway to think you have what it takes to be special.
A couple of others:

Lefty Driesell had a very good coaching career. Son, Chuck Driesell, l not so much.

Charlie Spoonhour had a very good coaching career. Son, Jay Spoonhour, not so much.

Joey Meyer's results actually were pretty good for awhile but not on par with the record of his dad, Ray.
 

Some guy

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This is complete nonsense. A team with a complete lack of talent doesn't beat a Michigan, Ohio State, Iowa, and Purdue team. Maybe they luck into one or two of those wins....but they don't take down four or the top five teams in the conference with a roster void of talent outside of the top two or three.

It's a bad take and you should drop it.

As a few others have said....I haven't been outspoken about dumping Pitino....but this game really seals my opinion. We were getting crushed and Robbins was clearly slow and hobbled....yet he remained out there for no good reason. Seriously....why can't Freeman get an extended look? In limited time....he's made some plays.

And gameplanning is clearly something that Pitino just doesn't do well. This team seems to get dumped on directly out of half in almost every game. Why? Pitino just can't make adjustments mid-game? The games against Maryland simply show how outmatched he is. They came into both games knowing exactly how to come at this team. The second game specifically is the major embarrassment here. Forget about halftime adjustments.....Pitino had THREE WEEKS to figure out how to counter the defense they threw at us and he instead went in with the exact same gameplan. That's sad.
Who is the 5th best player

what other top4 team in the conference does that person even get minutes for?
 

Some guy

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You started with “best player is awful at defense” .... I’ll help you out “HE’S NOT TOUR BEST PLAYER” if he’s awful at defense.

if your “Best” player scores 18 and gives up 22, what’s the point?
You don’t think Carr is the best player?
Who is the best player?
 

BarnBurner

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Let's dig a little deeper into this. Occasional players leaving early for a professional career is a good thing for a program's reputation. All teams have injuries from time to time. Robbins playing yesterday (and the game before) gives an indication of why injuries on Pitino teams seem to have a way of lasting.

While it was almost inevitable that Pitino's 2018 team would take a tumble after Lynch's suspension and Coffey's injury, I don't feel that it was inevitable for the team would go 2-14 after that. Pitino's teams are always one or two injuries away from absolute disaster. That speaks to poor roster construction/development and inability to adjust to changing circumstances. There's never been a "next man up" psychology under Pitino.
I would venture to say most teams in D1 that have 2 key injuries will fall off significantly. And, based on the discussions here on GH around it being much more difficult to have more than 7 or 8 players that are in the regular rotation due to players wanting minutes, it appears roster building is a difficult proposition for most teams.
 

Some guy

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Carr is the leading scorer on the MN BB team. Is the leading scorer always the best player on the team?
That wasn’t my assertion. But no, they aren’t

Who is the best player on the gopher team if not Carr
 

BarnBurner

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That wasn’t my assertion. But no, they aren’t

Who is the best player on the gopher team if not Carr
Ding ding ding.

Up until a few games ago, I would say Robbins. He saves a ton of opposition points. Most valuable may be better term.

Carr has far too many warts.
 

stocker08

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You've just now came to this conclusion?

It's been pretty obvious for several years now.

He can't coach well enough to overcome his recruiting, and he doesn't recruit well enough to overcome his coaching.

Said that years ago.
I don't think it's been obvious. But I think that this has been his most talented team and the lack of coaching/coaching errors are coming through really strong.
 

CentralGopher

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You've just now came to this conclusion?

It's been pretty obvious for several years now.

He can't coach well enough to overcome his recruiting, and he doesn't recruit well enough to overcome his coaching.

Said that years ago.
I am not basing a thing off this game. A win yesterday was not realistic even when healthy. The 7th losing big 10 record in 8 years is what I look at.
 

stocker08

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Who is the 5th best player

what other top4 team in the conference does that person even get minutes for?
So you have Carr, Robbins, Johnson, Mashburn as the clear top four. Tre is probably the fifth best....maybe Gabe because of his defense.

Both of those guys see minutes for other Big Ten teams regardless of what you say.
 

Some guy

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So you have Carr, Robbins, Johnson, Mashburn as the clear top four. Tre is probably the fifth best....maybe Gabe because of his defense.

Both of those guys see minutes for other Big Ten teams regardless of what you say.
If mashburn is too 4, this isn’t a top 20 roster or a top 5 in the conference roster....it’s as simple as that.
 

BarnBurner

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If mashburn is too 4, this isn’t a top 20 roster or a top 5 in the conference roster....it’s as simple as that.
Agreed.

I said so at the beginning of the season. Some of the more experienced posters disagreed. One in particular.
 

Some guy

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Agreed.

I said so at the beginning of the season. Some of the more experienced posters disagreed. One in particular.
Yeah I just don’t see the depth of talent.
They have talent. When they’re rolling they can beat people. But the roster is so top heavy. If Carr has a bad game they can lose to anyone in the conference.

Being able to beat a good team doesn’t mean your good enough to win the conference. Being able to win a lot of games consistently makes you good enough to win the conference. Those sometimes go together but not always
 

stocker08

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If mashburn is too 4, this isn’t a top 20 roster or a top 5 in the conference roster....it’s as simple as that.
I never argued that it was a top five conference roster. I rejected the idea that this was a roster void of talent.

Carr is a legit number one. Pitino often gives him too long of a leash. I don't think his method of play would fly under a more seasoned coach.

Robbins is a legit number two. Unfortunately he's done some disappearing acts. Can't really blame him for being hobbled and not showing well.

Brandon Johnson is typically consistent....especially on the defensive end. He also has the ability to put up a good number of points when he is on.

Mashburn has quickly picked up the pace of the game. Over the past few contests, he's proven to be a starting calibur player as a true freshman.

Tre has shown an aptitude for scoring the ball. His ability to slash to the rim has been something that has been sorely missing on this team. However....like with Carr....he's also shown the tendency to take bad shots when he's feeling solid.

Gabe is a decent role player. Depending on the matchup, a good spot start. His shooting problems have been a major issue and unfortunately it appears he is what he is. On the flip side....he's one of the teams best defenders which is a major boost to him depending on who we are playing.

Ihnen and Gach both show potential. Ihnen more than Gach has flashed starter potential at times. Curry is a warm body that can play spot minutes.

There's not nearly enough tape on Mitchell or Freeman.


My opinion on the matter is that this is probably Pitino's most talented team. But it also appears that the development of players under him has been lacking. He's too slow to make adjustments on the fly. He gives certain players too long of a leash which encourages bad decision making. Gameplan doesn't seem to change from game to game....whereas the top teams in the conference clearly plan for the team that they are playing. Even game situations in which most coaches have set plays....Pitino seems to have very few or none.

I've been patient with Pitino....but I've been wrong. He probably shouldn't have lasted this long. One or two players have made his teams competitive enough to keep us out of the cellar....but there have always been positional deficiencies in more than one spot when you hit the bench. For that...it was hard to make a solid judgement on his abilities as a truly green coach. No longer. He's in his eighth year and has his most talented team. The bench has enough solid players to bring in without allowing the opposing team to feast. As I said....the talent is there. You don't manage an NCAA high (tied, or at least was) top 25 win number on a team void of talent. But that simply proves that other teams can adjust to us but we cannot do the same to them. That's on Pitino.
 
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Some guy

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I never argued that it was a top five conference roster. I rejected the idea that this was a roster void of talent.

Carr is a legit number one. Pitino often gives him too long of a leash. I don't think his method of play would fly under a more seasoned coach.

Robbins is a legit number two. Unfortunately he's done some disappearing acts. Can't really blame him for being hobbled and not showing well.

Brandon Johnson is typically consistent....especially on the defensive end. He also has the ability to put up a good number of points when he is on.

Mashburn has quickly picked up the pace of the game. Over the past few contests, he's proven to be a starting calibur player as a true freshman.

Tre has shown an aptitude for scoring the ball. His ability to slash to the rim has been something that has been sorely missing on this team. However....like with Carr....he's also shown the tendency to take bad shots when he's feeling solid.

Gabe is a decent role player. Depending on the matchup, a good spot start. His shooting problems have been a major issue and unfortunately it appears he is what he is. On the flip side....high one of the teams best defenders which is a major boost to him depending on who we are playing.

Ihnen and Gach both show potential. Ihnen more than Gach has flashed starter potential at times. Curry is a warm body that can play spot minutes.

There's not nearly enough tape on Mitchell or Freeman.


My opinion on the matter is that this is probably Pitino's most talented team. But it also appears that the development of players under him has been lacking. He's too slow to make adjustments on the fly. He gives certain players too long of a leash which encourages bad decision making. Gameplan doesn't seem to change from game to game....whereas the top teams in the conference clearly plan for the team that they are playing. Even game situations in which most coaches have set plays....Pitino seems to have very few or none.

I've been patient with Pitino....but I've been wrong. He probably shouldn't have lasted this long. One or two players have made his teams competitive enough to keep us out of the cellar....but there have always been positional deficiencies in more than one spot when you hit the bench. For that...it was hard to make a solid judgement on his abilities as a truly green coach. No longer. He's in his eighth year and has his most talented team. The bench has enough solid players to bring in without allowing the opposing team to feast. As I said....the talent is there. You don't manage an NCAA high (tied, or at least was) top 25 win number on a team void of talent. But that simply proves that other teams can adjust to us but we cannot do the same to them. That's on Pitino.
I think I’m in an odd spot on the board because I basically agree with what you said. And then people accuse me of being a Pitino apologist because I say his in game coaching isn’t horrible.

I think lack of roster building and development have been a bigger issue than in game coaching.
If I was AD I would’ve moved on at the end of the 18-19 season because the roster that I saw as the peak of the Pitino era finished under .500 in conference.


it is clear to me that if 2016-17 was the norm. Pitino is good enough to be the long term coach. After 18-19 I thought it was clear 16-17 was not the norm and was not going to be the norm.
 

stocker08

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I think I’m in an odd spot on the board because I basically agree with what you said. And then people accuse me of being a Pitino apologist because I say his in game coaching isn’t horrible.

I think lack of roster building and development have been a bigger issue than in game coaching.
If I was AD I would’ve moved on at the end of the 18-19 season because the roster that I saw as the peak of the Pitino era finished under .500 in conference.


it is clear to me that if 2016-17 was the norm. Pitino is good enough to be the long term coach. After 18-19 I thought it was clear 16-17 was not the norm and was not going to be the norm.
I've admittedly given Pitino a longer leash than he probably deserved. I just hate the thought of tearing it all down and starting new. Especially if his removal means that we purge the roster. But he's not a "new" coach anymore. His first four or five years....he was still extremely green. But at this point....he is what he is. Doesn't mean that he can't adjust and grow as a coach...but he's been given his chance here. In my opinion....he's been able to bring in some high caliber players. But if guys like Freeman can't see more than a couple minutes per game as sophomores....there's a major issue. We know that Pitino has brought in some complete misses late in the recruiting cycle....but a guy like Freeman wasn't a late cycle swing and miss. He had decent offers. So what is the deal? Is he seriously no good? I can't tell based upon his low minutes. If that is the case....how did that happen? Is there no progression with guys on Pitino's team?

Along with this and the game planning and in game adjustments....I think that there is enough tape on Pitino at this point to call it a failed experiment and move on.
 

Some guy

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I've admittedly given Pitino a longer leash than he probably deserved. I just hate the thought of tearing it all down and starting new. Especially if his removal means that we purge the roster. But he's not a "new" coach anymore. His first four or five years....he was still extremely green. But at this point....he is what he is. Doesn't mean that he can't adjust and grow as a coach...but he's been given his chance here. In my opinion....he's been able to bring in some high caliber players. But if guys like Freeman can't see more than a couple minutes per game as sophomores....there's a major issue. We know that Pitino has brought in some complete misses late in the recruiting cycle....but a guy like Freeman wasn't a late cycle swing and miss. He had decent offers. So what is the deal? Is he seriously no good? I can't tell based upon his low minutes. If that is the case....how did that happen? Is there no progression with guys on Pitino's team?

Along with this and the game planning and in game adjustments....I think that there is enough tape on Pitino at this point to call it a failed experiment and move on.
And I even think Pitino probably lands a non power 6 job or a low level power 6 job and has some success later in his career.
And that doesn’t mean we should keep him.


the program has clearly stagnated. Time for a change.

Pitino would be a good hire for a place like De Paul. Decent second tier recruiter and might be better with a fresh start
 

short ornery norwegian

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Listening to radio Sunday morning. Barreiro was off so Gaard was hosting the Sunday morning program.

His take on the Gophers - "bad luck."

My response - if the same team and the same coach keep having "bad luck" every year, then maybe it isn't just "bad luck." Maybe it's something more systemic.
 

stocker08

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And I even think Pitino probably lands a non power 6 job or a low level power 6 job and has some success later in his career.
And that doesn’t mean we should keep him.


the program has clearly stagnated. Time for a change.

Pitino would be a good hire for a place like De Paul. Decent second tier recruiter and might be better with a fresh start
Yup. Definitely time (or past time) to match a move. And I agree....I think Pitino would land somewhere else. A De Paul in the Big East would be nice. He might fare better with recruiting out east. And he's still young. Plenty of room for growth.
 

GopherGangsta

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Listening to radio Sunday morning. Barreiro was off so Gaard was hosting the Sunday morning program.

His take on the Gophers - "bad luck."

My response - if the same team and the same coach keep having "bad luck" every year, then maybe it isn't just "bad luck." Maybe it's something more systemic.
JG is a huge Pitino guy and apologist....They have a personal friendship.....I take everything he says with 2 grains of salt....Remember JG was in love with Kill too and thought the football program was lucky to have him.
 

jblass

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I’m sitting here watching the Michigan and Ohio State game and thinking these two are the 3rd and 4th ranked teams in the country and we crushed them both at home. What the hell happened to our team?
 

McDobb4BB

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Listening to radio Sunday morning. Barreiro was off so Gaard was hosting the Sunday morning program.

His take on the Gophers - "bad luck."

My response - if the same team and the same coach keep having "bad luck" every year, then maybe it isn't just "bad luck." Maybe it's something more systemic.
I listened as well ... both JG and Spencer kind brushed it off.

I actually rewatched the game this morning. In the first half, we gave up transition baskets after makes! That can only happen when their is no pride or effort on defense. One was an easy 3 ... the other one, ball was inbounded and Curbelo went straight down the court, right by Masburn for an uncontested layup.

This is a coaching issue. The way the guards played defense yesterday, they wouldn’t see the floor on many good teams. On this team, the “best player” is the worst defender. Others follow his lead and you get the effort we saw yesterday.

This had nothing to do with bad luck.
 

Bad Gopher

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I’m sitting here watching the Michigan and Ohio State game and thinking these two are the 3rd and 4th ranked teams in the country and we crushed them both at home. What the hell happened to our team?
To me it comes down to: it's not capability, it's performance. It's not how you're capable of playing, it's how you play. And it's whether or not you're able to do something consistently and repeatedly and whether you bring effort and intensity on a regular basis. The Gophers obviously have good capability. Anyone who denies this denies the game scores.
 

skiumah1

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Listening to radio Sunday morning. Barreiro was off so Gaard was hosting the Sunday morning program.

His take on the Gophers - "bad luck."

My response - if the same team and the same coach keep having "bad luck" every year, then maybe it isn't just "bad luck." Maybe it's something more systemic.
Gaard just loves the relationship he has with Pitino. Thinks Pitino is a great guy, which it sounds like Pitino is a pretty good guy. He just isn't a good basketball coach, at least at this level of competition.
 

Some guy

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To me it comes down to: it's not capability, it's performance. It's not how you're capable of playing, it's how you play. And it's whether or not you're able to do something consistently and repeatedly and whether you bring effort and intensity on a regular basis. The Gophers obviously have good capability. Anyone who denies this denies the game scores.
Having the talent to beat a good team =/= having the talent to be a consistent winner


it is why Alabama football has 6 national titles but only 4 unbeaten seasons

It is why the national champion in basketball so often has multiple losses.

a given team can beat a lot of teams on a given day. You need a different kind of talent to be able to sustain the winning on bad days, on days with tired legs, etc

Minnesota has talent this year. They’re good enough to beat anyone. But they aren’t that good. They aren’t a top 20 roster.
 

Bad Gopher

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Having the talent to beat a good team =/= having the talent to be a consistent winner


it is why Alabama football has 6 national titles but only 4 unbeaten seasons

It is why the national champion in basketball so often has multiple losses.

a given team can beat a lot of teams on a given day. You need a different kind of talent to be able to sustain the winning on bad days, on days with tired legs, etc

Minnesota has talent this year. They’re good enough to beat anyone. But they aren’t that good. They aren’t a top 20 roster.
Every team has it's ups and downs, but this is extreme.

They have a top 30-40 roster, but their computer rankings are in the 50-60 range at the moment. Not good.
 
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