***OFFICIAL CLEMSON AT MINNESOTA BIG TEN/ACC CHALLENGE IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

Block M

Member
Um... Voshon Lenard? Point guard? I think not. Great shooting guard though!

But yeah, these comments about Isaiah Washington are wild. I was rooting for him to succeed here, but this is a guy who's averaging 5.8 pts and 3.5 assists on 32% shooting. At Iona. Against fearsome opponents such as Kennesaw State and Stetson...

I agree with all the criticisms of Carr, but also think that he should be given time to improve. We saw some potential here tonight against a shorthanded Clemson team. He's not going to have it that easy every game, but hopefully he can build on this. Ultimately, it seems like a lot of his issues come down to decision making. We've seen examples of players improving in this regard (e.g., Mason), but it's hard to predict whether Carr will or not.
Lets be honest here. (A) We are not the purveyors of PG playing time and (B) Carr is the only game in town at PG. I strongly suspect he will become more consistent as he gets more comfortable with his team, playing in the Barn etc etc. His FT shooting to me indicates he's been a bit anxious on the court. I expect it will improve as well. Needs to eliminate the non-rhythm 3-pt shots.
 
Carr looked great last night, and Omersa has progressed quite a bit in the last 12 months. Oturu looks great (besides a couple head scratching fouls). Guessing Ihnen is still learning defensive rotations or something, thinking he should show more progression than most throughout the year.
 

ATLgopherfan

New member
Lets be honest here. (A) We are not the purveyors of PG playing time and (B) Carr is the only game in town at PG. I strongly suspect he will become more consistent as he gets more comfortable with his team, playing in the Barn etc etc. His FT shooting to me indicates he's been a bit anxious on the court. I expect it will improve as well. Needs to eliminate the non-rhythm 3-pt shots.
Agree totally.
 

golden_boi

Pitino Promoter
Um... Voshon Lenard? Point guard? I think not. Great shooting guard though!

But yeah, these comments about Isaiah Washington are wild. I was rooting for him to succeed here, but this is a guy who's averaging 5.8 pts and 3.5 assists on 32% shooting. At Iona. Against fearsome opponents such as Kennesaw State and Stetson...

I agree with all the criticisms of Carr, but also think that he should be given time to improve. We saw some potential here tonight against a shorthanded Clemson team. He's not going to have it that easy every game, but hopefully he can build on this. Ultimately, it seems like a lot of his issues come down to decision making. We've seen examples of players improving in this regard (e.g., Mason), but it's hard to predict whether Carr will or not.
Agreed on all of this. This is what I’m trying to say. I’m not saying Carr will be All Big Ten. I’m saying people aren’t even giving him a chance. Like I said - I also see that he dribbles too much, and takes some bad shots.
Agree totally.
Same
 

golden_boi

Pitino Promoter
I don't recall Nolen


Like Carr, Nolen couldn't shoot. The point guard position when Nolen entered the program carried different responsibilities. The three wasn't as big a part of the game and point guards usually weren't looking for their shot first. As I recall, as a sophomore Nolen didn't kill ball movement, didn't soak up the shot clock with the ball in his hands and played top shelf defense. Unlikely that a 5'11" PG like Charlie Moore would have been able to laugh up and down the court like Moore did Friday.

You are correct that Nolen was criticized as a sophmore. It was primarily for his poor shooting percentage. Not shot selection. Not dribbling the shot clock away. Not depriving better shooters of opportunities. Not lack of defense. Carr leads a team with Oturu, Kalsheur and Willis in total shots this year. The way this team will win is if he gets those guys shots.

I agree that Carr will improve. I hope that the improvement will come through changing his style of play, not making a slightly higher percentage of too many shots. That won't move the needle for this team, especially in B1G play.
Nice, reasonable take
 
Some of these takes are a head scratcher. Give me a break, I really liked IW but Carr is a much better player. He's a better shooter, decision maker and defender. I'm willing to bet that Carr will also end up being a much better player than a guy like Al Nolen. I think Carr has a ceiling of playing like last night, which if you did over a season would make you at least a 2nd team all big 10 caliber player. People are quick to forget that Carr is only a sophomore and is probably still shaking off rust from last year. Does he make some boneheaded plays from time to time? Absolutely he does, that's what underclassmen do. Give him time and I bet he proves many wrong.
 

short ornery norwegian

Well-known member
On the bench, it's kind of a catch-22. Yes, if you put inexperienced players in the game, the team may stuggle. But if you don't give them minutes now, they probably will not be much help later in the season.

It may go against conventional wisdom, but I would like to see the younger players getting a steady 10 minutes a game in non-conference action. If they're not going to be red-shirted, then they need to make a contribution. and they're not going to improve by not playing. I know the old "they have to earn playing time in practice" argument. But this team is going to have nights - especially in the conference, where they will need someone coming off the bench and making a contribution.

once you get into the conference grind, if you run into foul trouble or injuries, you have to have someone who can come off the bench. I would rather give them minutes now, as opposed to throwing someone into a B1G game in January and hope they don't cr*p their pants.
 

UpAndUnder43

Well-known member
On the bench, it's kind of a catch-22. Yes, if you put inexperienced players in the game, the team may stuggle. But if you don't give them minutes now, they probably will not be much help later in the season.

It may go against conventional wisdom, but I would like to see the younger players getting a steady 10 minutes a game in non-conference action. If they're not going to be red-shirted, then they need to make a contribution. and they're not going to improve by not playing. I know the old "they have to earn playing time in practice" argument. But this team is going to have nights - especially in the conference, where they will need someone coming off the bench and making a contribution.

once you get into the conference grind, if you run into foul trouble or injuries, you have to have someone who can come off the bench. I would rather give them minutes now, as opposed to throwing someone into a B1G game in January and hope they don't cr*p their pants.
I'd rather win games now and see where the chips fall in the conference. This means playing starters heavy minutes because we don't have a good bench.
 

Bad Gopher

A Loner, A Rebel
Agreed on all of this. This is what I’m trying to say. I’m not saying Carr will be All Big Ten. I’m saying people aren’t even giving him a chance. Like I said - I also see that he dribbles too much, and takes some bad shots.
Keep in mind, too, that Carr is a sophomore. Lots of ability to develop, and he's already a pretty good scorer.
 

jovs

Active member
I'd rather win games now and see where the chips fall in the conference. This means playing starters heavy minutes because we don't have a good bench.
Last night really highlighted the need to get as many minutes as possible for Freeman, he needs to be ready to play in the B1G part of the schedule, Clemson wasn't that physical and we still got into foul trouble.
 

Block M

Member
Some of these takes are a head scratcher. Give me a break, I really liked IW but Carr is a much better player. He's a better shooter, decision maker and defender. I'm willing to bet that Carr will also end up being a much better player than a guy like Al Nolen. I think Carr has a ceiling of playing like last night, which if you did over a season would make you at least a 2nd team all big 10 caliber player. People are quick to forget that Carr is only a sophomore and is probably still shaking off rust from last year. Does he make some boneheaded plays from time to time? Absolutely he does, that's what underclassmen do. Give him time and I bet he proves many wrong.
MC>>IW based on what I've seen through 8 games of MC. Decision making and leadership/comfort should only get better.
 

UpAndUnder43

Well-known member
Last night really highlighted the need to get as many minutes as possible for Freeman, he needs to be ready to play in the B1G part of the schedule, Clemson wasn't that physical and we still got into foul trouble.
Freeman is bad at basketball. He won’t get better playing an extra 60 minutes. He needs a full seeason and offseason to really improve. Just like Omersa did. He’ll only play in blowouts and when there is foul trouble.
I’d rather see Omersa, Demir and even Hurt get extra time if there is minutes to spare.
 

MennoSota

Active member
Check my last comment about Mason. Nolen was also getting ripped at that stage in his career. Carr is currently averaging more assists than both of them right now on a career basis. Just an FYI... Mason is my favorite Gopher in last 20 years.
Carr is a... redshirt... sophomore. Your moving of the goalpost is not important.
 

howeda7

Well-known member
Freeman is bad at basketball. He won’t get better playing an extra 60 minutes. He needs a full seeason and offseason to really improve. Just like Omersa did. He’ll only play in blowouts and when there is foul trouble.
I’d rather see Omersa, Demir and even Hurt get extra time if there is minutes to spare.
I think the point is that there WILL be foul trouble based on Oturu's recent games. (And Omersa's raking up fouls/minutes at an impressive rate).
 
Carr is a... redshirt... sophomore. Your moving of the goalpost is not important.
Who cares if he is a redshirt sophomore? The bottom line is that he's a sophomore. He has played one full season plus 8 games of D1 basketball in his entire life. Not to mention he transferred so a good chunk of his redshirt season was probably learning Pitino's system and playbook. It not like he's been in the same program the entire time.

As with all young players, especially ones who play PG, growing pains and stretches of inconsistency are to be expected. If you compare Carr's first 8 games this season to where Mason was at, the numbers are quite comparable. Actually let's do this, so that I can prove that your opinion is mostly grounded in personal bias and not in fact or results.

Mason through 8 games Sophomore season:
12.75pts/4.5ast/2.6rbs/1.87tovs per game on .378/.299/.792(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Carr through 8 games in Sophomore season(Yes I know his redshirt, so he's practically a senior)
14.4pts/6.6ast/5.8rbs/2.65tovs per game on .377/.310/.550(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Pretty damn similar in my opinion...so does this mean Carr is the next Nate Mason? No not at all, just that he is off to a solid start and if he improves on this current trajectory and works hard on his craft he is going to have one hell of a career here. He appears to be an outstanding leader and has the respect of his teammates. I for one have been excited since he announced his transfer and nothing I have seen so far has changed my initial opinion. I can't wait to see him grow as a player and hope he has an outstanding career here.
 

cjbfbp

Active member
I think the point is that there WILL be foul trouble based on Oturu's recent games. (And Omersa's raking up fouls/minutes at an impressive rate).
Omersa is averaging 8.7 fouls per 40 minutes so far this season. To put that in perspective, Bakery Konate's career average was 6.4 per 40 minutes (although he did average 9.1 per 40 in his junior season). Some other big man (Freeman or Ihnen) needs to get some burn time at least for insurance purposes.
 

cjbfbp

Active member
Mason through 8 games Sophomore season:
12.75pts/4.5ast/2.6rbs/1.87tovs per game on .378/.299/.792(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Carr through 8 games in Sophomore season(Yes I know his redshirt, so he's practically a senior)
14.4pts/6.6ast/5.8rbs/2.65tovs per game on .377/.310/.550(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Pretty damn similar in my opinion...so does this mean Carr is the next Nate Mason? No not at all,
I've long believed that Nate Mason has been rather mythologized on these pages. He wasn't a particularly efficient scorer (he did get to the line and put up a lot of points there), he wasn't a particularly great set-up man (especially for players who needed to be set-up), and in two of his three starting seasons, the team was terrible. He was 1st team Big Ten in his junior year but then Pitino was Big Ten coach of the year in the same season so there seems to have been a lot of sentimental, rags-to -riches story votes there.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Carr was better (individually and by the merits of team success) by the end of his career here.
 
I've long believed that Nate Mason has been rather mythologized on these pages. He wasn't a particularly efficient scorer (he did get to the line and put up a lot of points there), he wasn't a particularly great set-up man (especially for players who needed to be set-up), and in two of his three starting seasons, the team was terrible. He was 1st team Big Ten in his junior year but then Pitino was Big Ten coach of the year in the same season so there seems to have been a lot of sentimental, rags-to -riches story votes there.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Carr was better (individually and by the merits of team success) by the end of his career here.
Tend to agree. I still think Mason was a very nice player for us and one of the better players since 2000, but can't argue too much with your point.
 

MennoSota

Active member
Who cares if he is a redshirt sophomore? The bottom line is that he's a sophomore. He has played one full season plus 8 games of D1 basketball in his entire life. Not to mention he transferred so a good chunk of his redshirt season was probably learning Pitino's system and playbook. It not like he's been in the same program the entire time.

As with all young players, especially ones who play PG, growing pains and stretches of inconsistency are to be expected. If you compare Carr's first 8 games this season to where Mason was at, the numbers are quite comparable. Actually let's do this, so that I can prove that your opinion is mostly grounded in personal bias and not in fact or results.

Mason through 8 games Sophomore season:
12.75pts/4.5ast/2.6rbs/1.87tovs per game on .378/.299/.792(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Carr through 8 games in Sophomore season(Yes I know his redshirt, so he's practically a senior)
14.4pts/6.6ast/5.8rbs/2.65tovs per game on .377/.310/.550(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Pretty damn similar in my opinion...so does this mean Carr is the next Nate Mason? No not at all, just that he is off to a solid start and if he improves on this current trajectory and works hard on his craft he is going to have one hell of a career here. He appears to be an outstanding leader and has the respect of his teammates. I for one have been excited since he announced his transfer and nothing I have seen so far has changed my initial opinion. I can't wait to see him grow as a player and hope he has an outstanding career here.
He's in his third year playing with D1 athletes. In almost every category Mason is better.
I hope Carr gets better. I expect he will. However, he showed that he needs to catch and shoot in rhythm if he's going to make a 3 point shot. He tosses up bricks when he attempts a 3 from the dribble. Ultimately he's more of a shooting guard than a point guard.

Right now we are really shallow at point guard and power forward.
 

golfing18now

Active member
Who cares if he is a redshirt sophomore? The bottom line is that he's a sophomore. He has played one full season plus 8 games of D1 basketball in his entire life. Not to mention he transferred so a good chunk of his redshirt season was probably learning Pitino's system and playbook. It not like he's been in the same program the entire time.

As with all young players, especially ones who play PG, growing pains and stretches of inconsistency are to be expected. If you compare Carr's first 8 games this season to where Mason was at, the numbers are quite comparable. Actually let's do this, so that I can prove that your opinion is mostly grounded in personal bias and not in fact or results.

Mason through 8 games Sophomore season:
12.75pts/4.5ast/2.6rbs/1.87tovs per game on .378/.299/.792(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Carr through 8 games in Sophomore season(Yes I know his redshirt, so he's practically a senior)
14.4pts/6.6ast/5.8rbs/2.65tovs per game on .377/.310/.550(FG/3pt/FT) shooting

Pretty damn similar in my opinion...so does this mean Carr is the next Nate Mason? No not at all, just that he is off to a solid start and if he improves on this current trajectory and works hard on his craft he is going to have one hell of a career here. He appears to be an outstanding leader and has the respect of his teammates. I for one have been excited since he announced his transfer and nothing I have seen so far has changed my initial opinion. I can't wait to see him grow as a player and hope he has an outstanding career here.
Good post. We have seen far more in 7 or 8 games of Marcus Carr than we did in two years of IW (for one). To call Carr the worst point guard we have had in this program (as one poster did in another thread) is just bizarre.
 

Parcival

Member
I've long believed that Nate Mason has been rather mythologized on these pages. He wasn't a particularly efficient scorer (he did get to the line and put up a lot of points there), he wasn't a particularly great set-up man (especially for players who needed to be set-up), and in two of his three starting seasons, the team was terrible. He was 1st team Big Ten in his junior year but then Pitino was Big Ten coach of the year in the same season so there seems to have been a lot of sentimental, rags-to -riches story votes there.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Carr was better (individually and by the merits of team success) by the end of his career here.
I would be shocked if Carr could hold a candle to Mason's legacy. It's only been 8 games but Carr isn't close right now to what NM2 was as a floor general.

Sure Mason wasn't the most efficient scorer. But his game was just so SMOOTH. He was quick off the dribble, an exceptional finisher around the rim, and had a respectable three ball. Carr, on the other hand, needs to work on all of those things.

Not saying Carr won't improve... I think he has potential. Just not NM2 potential.
 

bga1

Active member
I would be shocked if Carr could hold a candle to Mason's legacy. It's only been 8 games but Carr isn't close right now to what NM2 was as a floor general.

Sure Mason wasn't the most efficient scorer. But his game was just so SMOOTH. He was quick off the dribble, an exceptional finisher around the rim, and had a respectable three ball. Carr, on the other hand, needs to work on all of those things.

Not saying Carr won't improve... I think he has potential. Just not NM2 potential.
I don't love Carr at PG- but he has Mason potential. His soph numbers are right where Nate's sophomore numbers were. It all depends what Carr does with his game from here both defensively and offensively. Nate shot 30% from 3 point range as a soph but he really improved in that area as a junior and senior. So far, Carr is a better rebounder, but it is early on that stat.
 
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