Offical Net ranking thread

schlegs

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Gophers climb to 51 after the Iowa win. I recommend anyone that wants to dig into the résumés checks out the Team Sheets. There's a link to them just below UNC Asheville at the bottom of the rankings.

https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-men/d1/ncaa-mens-basketball-net-rankings

lol thats pretty bad...i only checked a handful but doesn't seem to add up....for some reason quadrant 2 matters most....seems like their is a lot of weight on efficiency, so then might as well throw wins out the door..who knows maybe it will even out a lot more
 

Some guy

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lol thats pretty bad...i only checked a handful but doesn't seem to add up....for some reason quadrant 2 matters most....seems like their is a lot of weight on efficiency, so then might as well throw wins out the door..who knows maybe it will even out a lot more
Efficiency matters most.

Having a lot of wins against average teams instead of a lot of wins against below average teams matters.

Better to lose to good teams and beat average teams than beat good teams and beat below average teams too.



Ncaa at larges are messed up.
At least in college football playoff committee rankings they overvalue quality wins.
I’d rather have a system that over values quality wins than a system that rewards efficient losses.
 

cjbfbp

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Ncaa at larges are messed up.
At least in college football playoff committee rankings they overvalue quality wins.
I’d rather have a system that over values quality wins than a system that rewards efficient losses.
This may be one of those situations where the NCAA feels compelled to back peddle at the end of the regular season.
 

ltf

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I dont even understand the premise for using efficiency as one of the committee's criteria. The only thing I can come up with is that it is a way to reward teams that lose a lot of close games, but can use fonal score margin if that's a concern. Maybe someone can explain it for me. I can understand using win-loss, sos, and quadrants.
 

Some guy

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I dont even understand the premise for using efficiency as one of the committee's criteria. The only thing I can come up with is that it is a way to reward teams that lose a lot of close games, but can use fonal score margin if that's a concern. Maybe someone can explain it for me. I can understand using win-loss, sos, and quadrants.
About 15 years ago a bunch of internet fanboys started liking computer rankings better than common sense. And here we are.
 

Lakers612

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I dont even understand the premise for using efficiency as one of the committee's criteria. The only thing I can come up with is that it is a way to reward teams that lose a lot of close games, but can use fonal score margin if that's a concern. Maybe someone can explain it for me. I can understand using win-loss, sos, and quadrants.
I think it makes sense for the selection committee if they are trying seed the teams or for AP writers trying to figure out their Top 25, but other than that I see no purpose. Who makes it into the tournament should be based on a team's resume... For one thing, the number/quality of wins a team stacks up determines how well of a season they had. The teams that had the best season should make the tournament.

I'm sorry, if you are a good basketball team efficiency wise, but don't pull out enough wins, I don't see why that team should be rewarded. Now, I get that other metrics are needed because the mid-major teams do not have the schedule that a Big 10 team has, so when you are comparing resumes it is kind of hard to judge between a 26 win mid-major team and a 20-win Big 10 team... But overall the Gophers right now are fighting for a spot with mostly P6 schools, and I don't see why efficiency or any other metric should matter besides SOS and wins and losses. Basketball is one of those sports where a dominant win can look like a 4-point squeaker based on the score. Not sure why a team's performance up big or down big with 2-3 minutes left should determine the outcome of their season
 

MinnGopher

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Looking at the NET team sheets was very interesting, thanks for posting Matt. Unfortunately I could see the Gophers finishing with only 3 wins the rest of the way, but I could also see them only losing 3. Will be interesting to see how it plays out between now and selection Sunday.
 

SelectionSunday

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Currently Florida is the poster child for the new NET

11-8 record. Best (and only) decent win is over #45 Butler (a bubble team) in Gainesville.

#36 in NET.

#26 in KenPom.

6 of 8 losses are to teams that would definitely would make the NCAA field. I get it that it's better to have losses to good teams than bad ones for SOS purposes, but you better have some quality wins to go with those losses. Florida does not. The Gators have no business being considered one of the best 40 teams in the country, under any ranking formula.
 

tjgopher

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11-8 record. Best (and only) decent win is over #45 Butler (a bubble team) in Gainesville.

#36 in NET.

#26 in KenPom.

6 of 8 losses are to teams that would definitely would make the NCAA field. I get it that it's better to have losses to good teams than bad ones for SOS purposes, but you better have some quality wins to go with those losses. Florida does not. The Gators have no business being considered one of the best 40 teams in the country, under any ranking formula.

NC State (16-4) is probably the other biggest high major outlier. At least they have a better record than Gators and a win over Auburn (although that is growing less impressive).

NC STATE:

currently: #107 in RPI with a #277 SOS. Wouldn't even sniff an NIT berth in old system.

currently: #29 in NET whipping up on inferior teams and playing with game-long "efficiency"
currently: #32 in KenPom
 

Some guy

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11-8 record. Best (and only) decent win is over #45 Butler (a bubble team) in Gainesville.

#36 in NET.

#26 in KenPom.

6 of 8 losses are to teams that would definitely would make the NCAA field. I get it that it's better to have losses to good teams than bad ones for SOS purposes, but you better have some quality wins to go with those losses. Florida does not. The Gators have no business being considered one of the best 40 teams in the country, under any ranking formula.
This is why KenPom is horrible.

It measures as all possessions being equal and adds a little bit of SOS to it.

Well you blow out the bad teams and lose close to the good teams, it ends up being better than beating some of the good teams, getting blown out twice, and winning by 10 against all the bad teams.


Which is just garbage.
Not all possessions are created equal. Literally in Kenpom your ranking could be different if you ran it up by 50 against the 5 dogs on your schedule instead of playing the bench and winning by 20.

Net tries to fix that by setting margin of victory to a max of 10. But it doesn’t max our efficiency...meaning that it actually almost double counts efficiency in games that are less than 10 point games.
 

golfing18now

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About 15 years ago a bunch of internet fanboys started liking computer rankings better than common sense. And here we are.
Ironic we all hate the computer rankings and technology as opposed to human evaluation when it comes to selecting NCAA basketball teams but can't get away from human evaluation fast enough when it comes to reffing/umping athletic competition.
 

SelectionSunday

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NC State (16-4) is probably the other biggest high major outlier. At least they have a better record than Gators and a win over Auburn (although that is growing less impressive).

NC STATE:

currently: #107 in RPI with a #277 SOS. Wouldn't even sniff an NIT berth in old system.

currently: #29 in NET whipping up on inferior teams and playing with game-long "efficiency"
currently: #32 in KenPom
Good catch with NC State. These are the two teams I'd most love to see end up square only on the bubble. I want to see what the committee would do with them if their resumes mostly remain unimpressive. Could be a precedent setter.
 

Face The Facts

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Gophers are #57 in KenPom.
As mentioned 51 in NET.

I'll do another comparison of NET and Ken Pom soon, but the correlation is VERY VERY VERY strong.

The NET appears to be 95% Ken Pom efficiency ratings, then added margin of victory on top of it for 5%.
 

tjgopher

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Good catch with NC State. These are the two teams I'd most love to see end up square only on the bubble. I want to see what the committee would do with them if their resumes mostly remain unimpressive. Could be a precedent setter.
The NC State non-conference schedule is embarrassingly weak (almost entirely #300+ on games they chose to schedule). But, they rolled everyone by 30+ (and some by 50), so the NET loves them.
 

AO54

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It's not the computers are bad, it's that NET is bad. It does a really bad job of factoring in strength of schedule and the maximum win margin is 10.
 

Face The Facts

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NET vs RPI rankings.

Here are high RPI teams that suffer greatly with NET.

Team RPI NET Difference
Kansas 1 16 -15
Oklahoma 7 24 -17
Kansas State 19 34 -15
Florida State 21 33 -12
Temple 29 60 -31
Minnesota 30 51 -21
VCU 31 57 -26
UNCG 36 52 -16
Davidson 37 67 -30
Creighton 39 58 -19
Yale 40 65 -25
Seton Hall 43 64 -21
New Mexico State 45 74 -29
Belmont 46 72 -26
Arizona State 47 61 -14
Georgia State 48 131 -83
 

Face The Facts

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The NC State non-conference schedule is embarrassingly weak (almost entirely #300+ on games they chose to schedule). But, they rolled everyone by 30+ (and some by 50), so the NET loves them.
Their RPI is 107 which is far below anything that ever made the tournament previously.
 

Face The Facts

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NET Teams in Top 75 NET who are most greatly benefiting from NET over RPI.


Team - RPI - NET - Net Better by
Nebraska 66 25 41
North Carolina State 107 29 78
Florida 72 36 36
Lipscomb 68 39 29
Baylor 65 42 23
Liberty 128 46 82
Murray State 106 53 53
Saint Mary's College 96 55 41
Northwestern 84 56 28
Pittsburgh 98 63 35
Oregon 101 66 35
USC 116 75 41
 

tjgopher

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Their RPI is 107 which is far below anything that ever made the tournament previously.
I know, I already said that in the earlier post.

In fact, a #107 RPI is probably 20-25 spots better than any NIT at-large berth in the past ten years.
 

DeathClutch

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We have more quad 1 wins than 31/50 teams ahead of us in the rankings. We are by far the lowest team in the NET that has 4 quad 1 wins. Next closest is Baylor at 42.
 

cjbfbp

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In fact, a #107 RPI is probably 20-25 spots better than any NIT at-large berth in the past ten years.
I seem to recall Iowa making the NIT in 2012 with a 17-16 record and an RPI over 100. I still don't know why.
 

cjbfbp

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NET vs RPI rankings.

Here are high RPI teams that suffer greatly with NET.

Team RPI NET Difference
Kansas 1 16 -15
Oklahoma 7 24 -17
Kansas State 19 34 -15
Florida State 21 33 -12
Temple 29 60 -31
Minnesota 30 51 -21
VCU 31 57 -26
UNCG 36 52 -16
Davidson 37 67 -30
Creighton 39 58 -19
Yale 40 65 -25
Seton Hall 43 64 -21
New Mexico State 45 74 -29
Belmont 46 72 -26
Arizona State 47 61 -14
Georgia State 48 131 -83
Thanks for doing this. The results are illuminating.
 

builtbadgers

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lol thats pretty bad...i only checked a handful but doesn't seem to add up....for some reason quadrant 2 matters most....seems like their is a lot of weight on efficiency, so then might as well throw wins out the door..who knows maybe it will even out a lot more
I think wins should matter most by far and by winning all the time you will be the top teams in any system providing that you beat somebody good. No surprise, the best teams at the top of kenpom are the teams that have tons of victories against really good teams and no bad losses. The SOS for the power conference teams will soar. Coaches actually voted for this. You can not lose having higher OE and DE ratings than you play in a game thus the teams that have high marks are the best teams. Playing well should matter and i agree that NC State has gamed it along with a few outliers but that will play out. NC State plays UVA tomorrow and will either get a monumental season defining victory or they will not. The real problem is acting like Quad 2-3 are really great wins and they are not. Some Q2 and 3 losses are pretty bad losses. Or losing to a BC by 15 is a very bad loss, especially when other good teams have actually destroyed them. The Gophers have nothing to worry about. If they are good they sweep UW, knock off one of the Michigans and go 12-8. Do that and NET will be in the 25 range. The coaches wanted something that took out bias and measured good play over the course of the season. Nothing is perfect, but play well all the time and you will have 25 victories and many over good teams. The RPI was the biggest gaming schedule in history and put a ton of teams in over deserving power 6 teams and had become very small in the eyes of the committee which by the way represents the coaches. Each fan should rank their own top 50, where would you rank the Gophers ? You will get uneducated people spewing untruths about teams they have never watched. They will spew some garbage about pace of play without even knowing how that is factored. 2 dribbles per possession changes your pace of play by over 100 spots, or if a team percieved to be slow would just recklessly turn it over quickly 5 times per game they would be fast ! Better yet, guard poorly and let the other team get a good shot quickly, then you will be really fast. Most, not fans really do not understand even the basics of the metrics. Of course, if you win all the time against good competition you do not have to worry not only about wins but you will not have to worry about metrics.
 

builtbadgers

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We have more quad 1 wins than 31/50 teams ahead of us in the rankings. We are by far the lowest team in the NET that has 4 quad 1 wins. Next closest is Baylor at 42.
By any metric we have two horrible losses to BC and Illinois as it stands now. Those teams play poorly, lose alot and manhandled us.
 

Lakers612

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Looking at the NET rankings at a glance, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between Quad 1 wins and Quad 2 wins...

Gophers (#51) are 4-3 in Quad 1 games and 1-2 in Quad 2 games.. Gophers, of course, are undefeated in Quad 3 and Quad 4 games, so those games can only help the Gophers, not hurt them. Nevertheless, there appears to be a negligible difference between Quad 1 wins and Quad 2 wins. Here are other teams for comparison:

Butler (#50) is 1-5 in Quad 1 games yet 4-3 in Quad 2 games
St. Johns (#49) is 1-3 in Quad 1 games yet 5-0 in Quad 2 games
Alabama (#44) is 2-4 in Quad 1 games yet 5-0 in Quad 2 games
UCF (#40) is 0-1 in Quad 1 games yet 3-2 in Quad 2 games
Utah St. (#38) is 0-2 in Quad 1 games yet 2-2 in Quad 2 games
Florida (#36) is 1-7 in Quad 1 games yet 2-0 in Quad 2 games
Ole Miss (#35) is 3-5 in Quad 1 games yet 2-0 in Quad 2 games

There are other teams I could included as well, but overall I think these teams Net Rankings correlated with their Quad wins seem to suggest that Quad 1 wins are not worth significantly more than Quad 2 wins. Quad 2 losses, on the other hand, appear to be extra harmful
 
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dpodoll68

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Looking at the NET rankings at a glance, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between Quad 1 wins and Quad 2 wins...

Gophers (#51) are 4-3 in Quad 1 games and 1-2 in Quad 2 games.. Gophers, of course, are undefeated in Quad 3 and Quad 4 games, so those games can only help the Gophers, not hurt them. Nevertheless, there appears to be a negligible difference between Quad 1 wins and Quad 2 wins. Here are other teams for comparison:

Butler (#50) is 1-5 in Quad 1 games yet 4-3 in Quad 2 games
St. Johns (#49) is 1-3 in Quad 1 games yet 5-0 in Quad 2 games
Alabama (#44) is 2-4 in Quad 1 games yet 5-0 in Quad 2 games
UCF (#40) is 0-1 in Quad 1 games yet 3-2 in Quad 2 games
Utah St. (#38) is 0-2 in Quad 1 games yet 2-2 in Quad 2 games
Florida (#36) is 1-7 in Quad 1 games yet 2-0 in Quad 2 games
Ole Miss (#35) is 3-5 in Quad 1 games yet 2-0 in Quad 2 games

There are other teams I could included as well, but overall I think these teams Net Rankings correlated with their Quad wins seem to suggest that Quad 1 wins are not worth significantly more than Quad 2 wins. Quad 2 losses, on the other hand, appear to be extra harmful
You have to factor in home/road. I believe (don't quote me, but it's something like this) that Quad 2 road wins are as good as Quad 1 home wins, and Quad 1 road losses basically don't hurt you at all.
 

Lakers612

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You have to factor in home/road. I believe (don't quote me, but it's something like this) that Quad 2 road wins are as good as Quad 1 home wins, and Quad 1 road losses basically don't hurt you at all.
If that's the case, then why differentiate those wins by quadrants at all? Isn't the whole purpose of the quadrants to apply to a certain weight to the wins and losses. Making Quad 2 road wins worth more than Quad 1 home wins would defeat the purpose, I would think
 

matt

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If that's the case, then why differentiate those wins by quadrants at all? Isn't the whole purpose of the quadrants to apply to a certain weight to the wins and losses. Making Quad 2 road wins worth more than Quad 1 home wins would defeat the purpose, I would think
Dammit Lakers612, you quoted him on it!
 
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