NCAA - KU

builtbadgers

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Fake.

Anything I say is a loophole, you'll just say "no, that's just the rules".

You're trying to dodge the question.
What question ? I was told that thee were examples of coaches loopholes, everyone does it, your not winning if you dont and on and on. Most people know that there are coaches and programs that cheat but for anyone to say everyone does is a lie.
 

MplsGopher

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What question ? I was told that thee were examples of coaches loopholes, everyone does it, your not winning if you dont and on and on. Most people know that there are coaches and programs that cheat but for anyone to say everyone does is a lie.
Dodging the question.

What is an example of a loophole in college basketball, that you think "dirty" programs took advantage of?
 

Chico Gopher

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It's certainly obvious who are the ones who are in favor of ignoring the spirit of the rules because the rule writers were unable to conceive of every single possible thing that somebody might try to skirt the rule on a vague "technicality" and those who understand why the rule was actually made and try to adhere to the idea behind the rule.

I can understand the "Anything to Win" attitude when one is in a life or death situation, but when it comes to sports, I'm a little less tolerant.

The Otis post that included this obviously nailed it. "An oversight, or gap unintentionally left in the written document outlining the rules of how to conduct business, law or governance of an official body which is left uncovered by the governing body against their intent."

While a loophole may not be "technically" against the rules, the reason it's called a loophole is because the framers of the rules meant for it to be against the rules, but for whatever reason, never considered that somebody would take THAT PARTICULAR step in an effort to get around the rules and cheat.
 

builtbadgers

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Dodging the question.

What is an example of a loophole in college basketball, that you think "dirty" programs took advantage of?
I do not know of specific loopholes. We all know of blatant violation of rules, it happened here. I can give a theoretical example of how one could be staged. Let us say that a recruit is on a visit to UNC during a no contact with alumni. He walks through the gym as as he does so Michael Jordan is finishing a shoot around . As Jordan leaves the court he simply says hello and continues on his way. They would have found a way for them to cross paths. There are coaches that would never do that. They go out of their way to remind all boosters, hosts, scouts to not even buy a cup of coffee much less a meal. Just like in life, some lie, some cheat, some stretch and bend the rules. I see 70 % of people cheat at golf and 30% that never have. Some people think cheating is being a liar, first to yourself, then to others. This issue should have its own thread since it moved far from the KU-NCAA
topic. For the benefit of all interested in either just create one for those that want to speculate, guess and argue on loopholes. For now the NCAA is using facts as it pertains to violations of rules.
 

builtbadgers

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It's certainly obvious who are the ones who are in favor of ignoring the spirit of the rules because the rule writers were unable to conceive of every single possible thing that somebody might try to skirt the rule on a vague "technicality" and those who understand why the rule was actually made and try to adhere to the idea behind the rule.

I can understand the "Anything to Win" attitude when one is in a life or death situation, but when it comes to sports, I'm a little less tolerant.

The Otis post that included this obviously nailed it. "An oversight, or gap unintentionally left in the written document outlining the rules of how to conduct business, law or governance of an official body which is left uncovered by the governing body against their intent."

While a loophole may not be "technically" against the rules, the reason it's called a loophole is because the framers of the rules meant for it to be against the rules, but for whatever reason, never considered that somebody would take THAT PARTICULAR step in an effort to get around the rules and cheat.
Great post. It frames why some people are the type that will lie, cheat, deceive and others will not. The healthiest way that i can think of the way were taught was the joy is in the competition, competing with every ounce of what we had in everything. If someone else cheated, that was on them, having already lost more than could be gained on a scoreboard, they would have lost their dignity. For some that is more valuable than anything.
 

MplsGopher

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Great post. It frames why some people are the type that will lie, cheat, deceive and others will not. The healthiest way that i can think of the way were taught was the joy is in the competition, competing with every ounce of what we had in everything. If someone else cheated, that was on them, having already lost more than could be gained on a scoreboard, they would have lost their dignity. For some that is more valuable than anything.
Not a single player or coach on Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Arizona, etc. -- or Minnesota Clem, for that matter -- cheated on the court.

All it ever amounts to is whining/bitching by other teams that a team used a player that they "shouldn't" have been allowed to have. That's all it ever is. But on the court, they play by all the same rules, they don't cheat the actual game, and they work their butts off to beat you.



And this just gets right back to the false foundation -- amateurism. It was conjured up to prevent the best players of a sport/competition, from competing against lesser players. Oh, you work in a factory? Well that's not fair! You can't row against my boy, who doesn't work in a job and just goes to school! He's an amateur! You're a professional!

Fake, fake, fake.


I'll get to the rest of it later.
 

builtbadgers

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Not a single player or coach on Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Arizona, etc. -- or Minnesota Clem, for that matter -- cheated on the court.

All it ever amounts to is whining/bitching by other teams that a team used a player that they "shouldn't" have been allowed to have. That's all it ever is. But on the court, they play by all the same rules, they don't cheat the actual game, and they work their butts off to beat you.



And this just gets right back to the false foundation -- amateurism. It was conjured up to prevent the best players of a sport/competition, from competing against lesser players. Oh, you work in a factory? Well that's not fair! You can't row against my boy, who doesn't work in a job and just goes to school! He's an amateur! You're a professional!

Fake, fake, fake.


I'll get to the rest of it later.
Great, your opinion. The players and their families jump up and down when they get their 500,000 scholarship and huge opportunity. So some cheat to get players on the court to compete. Each coach and program will have to decide who they want to be, how they conduct themselves. Love it when someone plays clean and beats those schools you mentioned. Also love it when cheaters are punished weather they are amateur or professional.
 

MplsGopher

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Great, your opinion. The players and their families jump up and down when they get their 500,000 scholarship and huge opportunity. So some cheat to get players on the court to compete. Each coach and program will have to decide who they want to be, how they conduct themselves. Love it when someone plays clean and beats those schools you mentioned. Also love it when cheaters are punished weather they are amateur or professional.
Except "plays clean" is fake, fake, fake. A fairytale story you tell yourself to feel good about what you believe in. Nothing more.
 

builtbadgers

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You certainly do. Until you're challenged to back it up. Then you stomp off in a huff.
No huff on my part. The teams i follow are clean . some of them even win conference titles, get to final fours and win national titles. The burden is on the accuser to prove. What has Pitino done to show uou he does not run a clean program. He does not win but he is clean. Not a single coach or journalist thinks Tony Bennett has ever cheated in any way. Same with dozens of others. Name what they have done.
 

CPTMidnight

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No huff on my part. The teams i follow are clean . some of them even win conference titles, get to final fours and win national titles. The burden is on the accuser to prove. What has Pitino done to show uou he does not run a clean program. He does not win but he is clean. Not a single coach or journalist thinks Tony Bennett has ever cheated in any way. Same with dozens of others. Name what they have done.
What burden? We are having a sports discussion here not assembling a Grand Jury.

Happy for people that seem to do it right. Happier if they actually are legit ethical people behind the scenes and actually do it right."

Doing it right can be a bit of a moving-target" with you Built but I get the idea. Still.. anyone here that thinks a coach is dirty may someday be proven right no matter how ethical they appear.Would be very surprised if Bennett were to get hit with a substantial NCAA penalty. Sad part is that I would be even more surprised if any of the blueblood schools ever see a big time penalty for doing what we all suspect is happening.
 

builtbadgers

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What burden? We are having a sports discussion here not assembling a Grand Jury.

Happy for people that seem to do it right. Happier if they actually are legit ethical people behind the scenes and actually do it right."

Doing it right can be a bit of a moving-target" with you Built but I get the idea. Still.. anyone here that thinks a coach is dirty may someday be proven right no matter how ethical they appear.Would be very surprised if Bennett were to get hit with a substantial NCAA penalty. Sad part is that I would be even more surprised if any of the blueblood schools ever see a big time penalty for doing what we all suspect is happening.
Was Louisville blue blood ? Was USC football blue blood ? I think KU is in real trouble.
 

CPTMidnight

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Louisville.. Meh. KU - Yes. USC - Not my area.

Let me clarify. The reason that schools get away with it is not that the NCAA is blind to it - It is that the schools are actually good at getting away with it - which is part of why they are blueblood schools. The program finds ways to circumvent the current system either by generating new loopholes or via minor infractions which can be positioned as an honest mistake or by finding people far removed from the program to commit the serious infractions. In many cases they have built upon previous success or previous rule breaking.

As with any system of rules it is created by attorneys, enforced by attorneys, and perpetuated by the impossible vision that the playing field will someday be level. It is never level - just people working an angle on the set of rules given to them by the NCAA. Like any set of rules setup by lawyers - eventually the rich get richer and the poor get poorer with few exceptions. Be better to burn the NCAA to the ground and just let schools do what they want and play whoever they want and pay whoever they want. Would allow the conferences to self regulate again and decide what is best for them - would also allow schools to move to a different system if stuck in a corrupt system. My rant for the day...

P.S. ...and gee whiz - pay these kids for the revenue they generate for the school.
 
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