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Chico Gopher

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A loophole is, by definition, not not following the rules. It is allowed by the rules. That's the point.
Just my personal opinion here. If one looks at a rule, one should also be trying to understand the spirit of the rule, which is generally trying to avoid allow an unfair advantage. If one starts to immediately look for loopholes around the spirit of the rule, I see that as looking for a way to rig or cheat the system. To me, the spirit of the rules is a big deal. May not be a big deal to others.

As I mentioned in a different post, I actually know a guy who insists that "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.". That attitude, at least to me, is one reason we keep adding more seemingly ridiculous laws and rules to an already long list of laws and rules. We try to keep plugging loopholes because there are some who just don't feel they can be successful if they are forced to compete with the exact same set of standards as the guy who's already reached the pinnacle they're striving for and will always look for a way to find a shortcut. I don't have any specific names or situations for you (I'm sure everybody else can come up with several to discuss) I'm merely speaking of the concept.
 

MplsGopher

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Just my personal opinion here. If one looks at a rule, one should also be trying to understand the spirit of the rule, which is generally trying to avoid allow an unfair advantage. If one starts to immediately look for loopholes around the spirit of the rule, I see that as looking for a way to rig or cheat the system. To me, the spirit of the rules is a big deal. May not be a big deal to others.

As I mentioned in a different post, I actually know a guy who insists that "If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.". That attitude, at least to me, is one reason we keep adding more seemingly ridiculous laws and rules to an already long list of laws and rules. We try to keep plugging loopholes because there are some who just don't feel they can be successful if they are forced to compete with the exact same set of standards as the guy who's already reached the pinnacle they're striving for and will always look for a way to find a shortcut. I don't have any specific names or situations for you (I'm sure everybody else can come up with several to discuss) I'm merely speaking of the concept.
That code of morality is just fine, some would also agree with you that it is the "right" way to look at it.

And ... sorry if this offends you, but very often, this is a loser's mentality. If you're not prepared to take advantage of every loophole in the rules, then ..... you probably won't win. Because others are willing to take advantage of them.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that is the world. If it really were that unfair, then they'd make the rules explicitly forbid that.
 

builtbadgers

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That code of morality is just fine, some would also agree with you that it is the "right" way to look at it.

And ... sorry if this offends you, but very often, this is a loser's mentality. If you're not prepared to take advantage of every loophole in the rules, then ..... you probably won't win. Because others are willing to take advantage of them.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that is the world. If it really were that unfair, then they'd make the rules explicitly forbid that.
Too bad, some are winning titles without loop holes or cheating. Some just have high personal ethics.
 

MplsGopher

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Too bad, some are winning titles without loop holes or cheating. Some just have high personal ethics.
Have you studied every word of the NCAA rule book, and do you follow around these programs in every moment?

BS. You do not. You make pronouncements, that you can't back up.

I can all but guarantee your favorite programs take advantage of loopholes. Which is just fine, because it's not against the rules.
 

builtbadgers

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Have you studied every word of the NCAA rule book, and do you follow around these programs in every moment?

BS. You do not. You make pronouncements, that you can't back up.

I can all but guarantee your favorite programs take advantage of loopholes. Which is just fine, because it's not against the rules.
I do not have it memorized but have been well versed in it so as to not commit any violations as a scout, consultant or host. Think what you want, you know absolutely nothing about how certain administrators, directors or coaches live their loves or run their programs. I have had a relative that played at UVA and it was and is clean top to bottom top to bottom. You do not know the true competitive nature of someone who only wants it clean. Name the loop holes you speak off. Recently, one of the shoe scum listed taking Malcom Brogdon's mom to lunch hoping to get rep on a future deal, that is a violation that many do but not all. That poor scum barked up the wrong tree as he wanted that on his expense report to his superiors but when compliance went over it they found Provost Ms. Brogdon was not even in the same state and never even met the guy, the guy admitted he made it up hoping he could look like he could get to UVA but they do not associate with that kind of trash, they will not recruit it, they will not deal with families like that. I have known several families that the parents just wanted to know if there was any kind of job in it for them and that recruitment is dropped immediately. I agree with you that there are loads of programs that cheat, use loopholes etc,, but not everyone. Their are many people who would never cheat.
 

MplsGopher

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I do not have it memorized but have been well versed in it so as to not commit any violations as a scout, consultant or host. Think what you want, you know absolutely nothing about how certain administrators, directors or coaches live their loves or run their programs. I have had a relative that played at UVA and it was and is clean top to bottom top to bottom. You do not know the true competitive nature of someone who only wants it clean. Name the loop holes you speak off. Recently, one of the shoe scum listed taking Malcom Brogdon's mom to lunch hoping to get rep on a future deal, that is a violation that many do but not all. That poor scum barked up the wrong tree as he wanted that on his expense report to his superiors but when compliance went over it they found Provost Ms. Brogdon was not even in the same state and never even met the guy, the guy admitted he made it up hoping he could look like he could get to UVA but they do not associate with that kind of trash, they will not recruit it, they will not deal with families like that. I have known several families that the parents just wanted to know if there was any kind of job in it for them and that recruitment is dropped immediately. I agree with you that there are loads of programs that cheat, use loopholes etc,, but not everyone. Their are many people who would never cheat.
Using a loophole is not cheating, by definition.

You can make up your own morality, but you don't get to claim others are cheating when they don't break the rules.


UVA does things, every year, that take advantage of loopholes ... because they, like every other program, are just following what is allowed by the rules.

For example, "stipends" are allowed by the rules. That's a loophole to paying players. Where is your chest pounding on that??? Cheaters!!!
 

builtbadgers

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Using a loophole is not cheating, by definition.

You can make up your own morality, but you don't get to claim others are cheating when they don't break the rules.


UVA does things, every year, that take advantage of loopholes ... because they, like every other program, are just following what is allowed by the rules.

For example, "stipends" are allowed by the rules. That's a loophole to paying players. Where is your chest pounding on that??? Cheaters!!!
Stipends is not a loop hole, it is allowed by rule. Study the guide on what is part of the scholarship package, limits, even insurance. Chest pounding ! Simply distasteful. Provide your loopholes that pertain to facts on programs. Some of which you literally know nothing about. I do not judge morality. I have my own personal ethics.
 

MplsGopher

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Stipends is not a loop hole, it is allowed by rule. Study the guide on what is part of the scholarship package, limits, even insurance. Chest pounding ! Simply distasteful. Provide your loopholes that pertain to facts on programs. Some of which you literally know nothing about. I do not judge morality. I have my own personal ethics.
SAME THING, by definition.
 

MplsGopher

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Again, you're just being arbitrary.

"Full cost of attendance" stipends is exactly the same thing as paying players a small salary. Exactly the same thing.

Arbitrary
 

Chico Gopher

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That code of morality is just fine, some would also agree with you that it is the "right" way to look at it.

And ... sorry if this offends you, but very often, this is a loser's mentality. If you're not prepared to take advantage of every loophole in the rules, then ..... you probably won't win. Because others are willing to take advantage of them.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that is the world. If it really were that unfair, then they'd make the rules explicitly forbid that.
You're right, a lot of people have that attitude. One could also argue that "True Winners" never need to try and exploit loopholes to win. In any case, my feeling is that, if you have to skirt the spirit of the rules to win, you really haven't won. You may be temporarily ahead, but in the final tally, you had to take a shortcut to get what you wanted and that isn't really winning.

I tend to avoid people who have that attitude as much as I can. Obviously, you end up having to deal with some of them, but they aren't the ones who get my trust and/or business when push comes to shove. It seems to be working for me so far.

But to each his own. If somebody is comfortable being that way or supporting that philosophy, and they feel it's working for them, it's their life. As long as it doesn't negatively affect me and I don't have to deal with them or the aftermath of what they do.

"Sorry if you don't like that, but that is the world. If it really were that unfair, then they'd make the rules explicitly forbid that." I think I covered this particular line when I mentioned the fact that we keep making more and more rules & laws to try and keep up with all the obscure loopholes that some keep finding and trying to use. The effort to close every single loophole (though likely an impossible task because nobody can account for every single possible situation in the universe) will likely continue until the end of time.
 

builtbadgers

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Again, you're just being arbitrary.

"Full cost of attendance" stipends is exactly the same thing as paying players a small salary. Exactly the same thing.

Arbitrary
Not cheating or a loop hole. Check out the rules, know them or make up whatever makes you feel good.
 

CPTMidnight

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Is it hard to know what rules are. Your the one the brought up some event i am unaware off and will not explain what it was in detail, all the while asking for my opinion. Look up the report on exactly Clem did, those are violations, cheating. Your the one bragging about flying on team planes, rubbing shoulders is not something i do. At our firm we do not round up, we charge a flat fee. If what i say means nothing to you simply skip it. You can not feed or deflate anything personally
on a message board. Believe whatever makes you feel better. If typing insults is your contribution then that is your contribution.
I brought up three events - not one. Brought them up multiple times. There was no response except attorney speak and beating up on Clem. Is being good at loopholes the same as cheating? Is being good at loopholes it the same as being a good ethical coach like the ones you mention. ...or is it somewhere in the middle - good coach if he uses a loophole you are OK with and a bad coach when he uses a loophole you do not. Are minor violations cheating even if they were inadvertent? Hard to tell what you are really saying as you just seem to apply rules to people you dont like and change them for people you do...

Bragging would be incessantly bringing up my experience to feed my ego and crush crush dissenting opinions. You claim to be an industry insider to back up your statements (please don't deny this - sheesh look at your posts). There are lots of people with sports industry experience on here. Lots of fans that are equally as knowledgeable.

In terms of insults. Must be hitting pretty close to home on some of this discussion for you to be crying foul. Please put on your big boy pants - its a forum.
 

builtbadgers

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I brought up three events - not one. Brought them up multiple times. There was no response except attorney speak and beating up on Clem. Is being good at loopholes the same as cheating? Is being good at loopholes it the same as being a good ethical coach like the ones you mention. ...or is it somewhere in the middle - good coach if he uses a loophole you are OK with and a bad coach when he uses a loophole you do not. Are minor violations cheating even if they were inadvertent? Hard to tell what you are really saying as you just seem to apply rules to people you dont like and change them for people you do...

Bragging would be incessantly bringing up my experience to feed my ego and crush crush dissenting opinions. You claim to be an industry insider to back up your statements (please don't deny this - sheesh look at your posts). There are lots of people with sports industry experience on here. Lots of fans that are equally as knowledgeable.

In terms of insults. Must be hitting pretty close to home on some of this discussion for you to be crying foul. Please put on your big boy pants - its a forum.
Have never said that i am a industry insider. I do not even know what that means. Simply spell out the three things you brought up in specific detail, otherwise how can i offer a opinion. Clem beat himself up with more than being lazy. Money scam, bribery. Full blown cheating with witnesses. Shameful behavior. Perhaps we just start our own thread as a courtesy to those that want to stay on the KU thread.
 

CPTMidnight

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Have never said that i am a industry insider. I do not even know what that means. Simply spell out the three things you brought up in specific detail, otherwise how can i offer a opinion. Clem beat himself up with more than being lazy. Money scam, bribery. Full blown cheating with witnesses. Shameful behavior. Perhaps we just start our own thread as a courtesy to those that want to stay on the KU thread.
I get it. Your trolling me. Good one.

Tell you what: You keep writing sanctimonious bs on here ->then avoid any reasonable questions ->then misdirect the conversation ->then reference your deep experience as an attorney, scout, recruiter, athlete advisor ->then pretend like you don't really have any college sports industry experience -> then play the victim.

We will just keep calling you on it.

See you next time. Back to KU
 

builtbadgers

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I get it. Your trolling me. Good one.

Tell you what: You keep writing sanctimonious bs on here ->then avoid any reasonable questions ->then misdirect the conversation ->then reference your deep experience as an attorney, scout, recruiter, athlete advisor ->then pretend like you don't really have any college sports industry experience -> then play the victim.

We will just keep calling you on it.

See you next time. Back to KU
So you will not come forward with your examples, fine. I just do not consider myself a insider or that my opinions are more valuable to the board than others. What did you consider reasonable questions? FYI, I can not be a victim on a message board, i would have to be suffering something to be a victim. Whoever "we" is i can not see what they ever write. Whoever resorts to name calling is someone i just block.
 

CPTMidnight

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So you will not come forward with your examples, fine. I just do not consider myself a insider or that my opinions are more valuable to the board than others. What did you consider reasonable questions? FYI, I can not be a victim on a message board, i would have to be suffering something to be a victim. Whoever "we" is i can not see what they ever write. Whoever resorts to name calling is someone i just block.
Not so much concerned that you follow what is written. Everyone else can see it.
 

BarnBurner

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I get it. Your trolling me. Good one.

Tell you what: You keep writing sanctimonious bs on here ->then avoid any reasonable questions ->then misdirect the conversation ->then reference your deep experience as an attorney, scout, recruiter, athlete advisor ->then pretend like you don't really have any college sports industry experience -> then play the victim.

We will just keep calling you on it.

See you next time. Back to KU
badger is the biggest fraud on gh bb board. No one compares.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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Understand. The coaches i know do not need to look for loopholes. They simply follow the rules.
There is zero difference between playing by the rules and looking for loopholes. Loopholes are the rules. The coaches you know look for loopholes, they would be incredibly unsuccessful if they didn't.
 

builtbadgers

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There is zero difference between playing by the rules and looking for loopholes. Loopholes are the rules. The coaches you know look for loopholes, they would be incredibly unsuccessful if they didn't.
Actually the one i am close too and have been for decades never looks for them and would quit before he did it. He is historically successful. Keep thinking what you want. Find a single shred of even a hint. Have you meet the players families, the players, the administrators, even his competitors. I have. AND he is not the only one, thee are dozens and dozens of guys playing it straight. Lets take our program since it is likely the one you know best. Name a single thing where Pitino played a loophole, he would call you a liar.
 

MplsGopher

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Every time we name something that is a loophole, you say that it’s not a loophole it’s just part of the rules.

What is an example of something in college basketball that you consider to be a loophole??
 

builtbadgers

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Every time we name something that is a loophole, you say that it’s not a loophole it’s just part of the rules.

What is an example of something in college basketball that you consider to be a loophole??
You tell me, what loopholes did Pitino use. What ones did Bennett or Wright even look at, Mckillop, Gard, Odom, Jordan, Beard .....
 

MplsGopher

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You tell me, what loopholes did Pitino use. What ones did Bennett or Wright even look at, Mckillop, Gard, Odom, Jordan, Beard .....
We can't tell you, until we know what you actually think a loophole is.

You have no idea what a loophole is, do you?
 

Otis

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Common sense dictionary: Loophole - An oversight, or gap unintentionally left in the written document outlining the rules of how to conduct business, law or governance of an official body which is left uncovered by the governing body against their intent. This "loophole" allows activity not in line with the Bodies rules and regulations but due to forces beyond their control the activity is "legal" due to the "loophole".
 

builtbadgers

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We can't tell you, until we know what you actually think a loophole is.

You have no idea what a loophole is, do you?
Do not be foolish, of course i do. Your part of a group saying all coaches use them, you must know which ones. I WAS told there were 3 of them, lay them out. It all sounds like jealously of those that built clean programs with elite success. There are actually people that do play by the book on every aspect of their lives.
 

builtbadgers

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Common sense dictionary: Loophole - An oversight, or gap unintentionally left in the written document outlining the rules of how to conduct business, law or governance of an official body which is left uncovered by the governing body against their intent. This "loophole" allows activity not in line with the Bodies rules and regulations but due to forces beyond their control the activity is "legal" due to the "loophole".
Exactly, know the proof posters have in their example that coaches look for them !
 

MplsGopher

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Common sense dictionary: Loophole - An oversight, or gap unintentionally left in the written document outlining the rules of how to conduct business, law or governance of an official body which is left uncovered by the governing body against their intent. This "loophole" allows activity not in line with the Bodies rules and regulations but due to forces beyond their control the activity is "legal" due to the "loophole".
Thank you for confirming that loopholes are the same thing as following the rules.
 

MplsGopher

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Do not be foolish, of course i do. Your part of a group saying all coaches use them, you must know which ones. I WAS told there were 3 of them, lay them out. It all sounds like jealously of those that built clean programs with elite success. There are actually people that do play by the book on every aspect of their lives.
Fake.

Anything I say is a loophole, you'll just say "no, that's just the rules".

You're trying to dodge the question.
 
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