NCAA - KU

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
You call all kinds of programs ethical that others would question. The point is that you seem to enjoy calling out an amateur cheater like Clem while the "pro's" at cheating get a pass. I get it - you are an attorney - loopholes are within the rules and therefore ethical while the guy that takes a step too far is a cheater. If there is no record of any issues at your school - you are a clean school.

I just said if we are going to cheat we should do it your way.

Clem would have been fine just to force the players to do the course work - same results on court. He was a doddering fool at academic oversight but a good basketball coach. His legacy is getting called a cheater by people like Built - so there ya go...
My way is not cheating at all, at anything. The programs i support are clean. I despise the programs that cheat and think they should be punished. Not my fault that recruits like those schools or to judge other people's ethics or opinions. In my opinion what you ask from your players off the court, starting with the ability to honestly get good character kids into school is part of your job as a coach. To be so lazy and reckless comes with consequences. Your entitled to your opinion, i have mine. My favorite thing about Clem was he did teach defense and tremendous effort.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
136
Points
43
My way is not cheating at all, at anything. The programs i support are clean. I despise the programs that cheat and think they should be punished. Not my fault that recruits like those schools or to judge other people's ethics or opinions. In my opinion what you ask from your players off the court, starting with the ability to honestly get good character kids into school is part of your job as a coach. To be so lazy and reckless comes with consequences. Your entitled to your opinion, i have mine. My favorite thing about Clem was he did teach defense and tremendous effort.
With all due respect - you don't know if those programs are clean or not. You only know that they do not have a current or pending investigation. None of these programs are as black and white as you say.

To frame it up a different way
  • Some always drive 60mph in a 65 zone just to be safe -Think grandma
  • Some drive 70 in a 65 because they know nobody ever gets a ticket at this speed and it is generally accepted as a safe speed but still unethical.
  • Some absent-mindedly drive over 70 and get a ticket which forces them to pay more attention in the future. These are the unethical guys that probably are decent guys but got caught at something they did not see as a big deal.
  • Some drive over 75 every day and employ countermeasures like radar/laser detectors, laser absorbtion grills, Waze apps for their phones, and laser jammers to avoid all tickets and then employ an army of lawers tickets in court to keep their record clean forever while finishing first in every race.
  • Some are unhinged idiots getting caught doing 120 and tossed in jail. They knew what they were doing, thought it was worth the risk, and loved the thrill of it.
You seem to say your guys always drive 60mph on every rule (Dont own a radar detector) yet consistently win. I guess it is possible for grandma to win every race but dont believe it for a second. You should come down from your ivory tower.
 

alchemy2u

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
415
Points
83
And many recruits simply love KU regardless of the news. They signed another really good player out of Sunrise today in Clemence.
And that is why they cheat. Recruits and their families will not hold them accountable for their actions. If recruits refused to sign, they would clean it up in and instant. Also, fans, sponsors and boosters continue to support that conduct.
 

alchemy2u

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
415
Points
83
I just want some coaches and their staff fired with a coaching ban. I dont think its fair to the players on the teams that didnt cheat. The coaches run the program, they should be accountable, as well as the players that accepted money.
Bull sh!t. The players all know that things like this are going on, it is a no risk situation for them because they can just bail. By choosing this type of program, those players are supporting the cheating conduct even if they didn't get any of the money. The players should also be held accountable and then they may stop choosing these shady programs.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
With all due respect - you don't know if those programs are clean or not. You only know that they do not have a current or pending investigation. None of these programs are as black and white as you say.

To frame it up a different way
  • Some always drive 60mph in a 65 zone just to be safe -Think grandma
  • Some drive 70 in a 65 because they know nobody ever gets a ticket at this speed and it is generally accepted as a safe speed but still unethical.
  • Some absent-mindedly drive over 70 and get a ticket which forces them to pay more attention in the future. These are the unethical guys that probably are decent guys but got caught at something they did not see as a big deal.
  • Some drive over 75 every day and employ countermeasures like radar/laser detectors, laser absorbtion grills, Waze apps for their phones, and laser jammers to avoid all tickets and then employ an army of lawers tickets in court to keep their record clean forever while finishing first in every race.
  • Some are unhinged idiots getting caught doing 120 and tossed in jail. They knew what they were doing, thought it was worth the risk, and loved the thrill of it.
You seem to say your guys always drive 60mph on every rule (Dont own a radar detector) yet consistently win. I guess it is possible for grandma to win every race but dont believe it for a second. You should come down from your ivory tower.
People cheat or they do not.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
13,708
Reaction score
1,848
Points
113
People cheat or they do not.
Rules are broken or not, but the rules are arbitrary.

It's arbitrary that the rules allow a "stipend" at the DI level, but nothing at the DIII level.

If you weren't a hypocrite, you'd only watch DIII basketball. Otherwise -- as is the case -- you're pounding your chest over arbitrary lines drawn in the sand.
 

go_gophers

Active member
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
604
Reaction score
118
Points
43
While I understand that Clem allowed for academic fraud to happen, I also think there is some context to consider. Past connections indicated to me that Clem thought he was doing a good thing for those individuals who would not have otherwise gotten that piece of parchment. He hoped that giving the an extra push now would help them in the long run. I believe his intentions were initially good, but he was wrong and let it spin even further out of control. I believe he is a good person who made a bad mistake and paid the price. However, I get uneasy with the notion that he is/was a bad person. I get the feeling that some want to make that assertion. I think it's a little more complicated than that. His actions (or inactions) were bad. He is/was not.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
While I understand that Clem allowed for academic fraud to happen, I also think there is some context to consider. Past connections indicated to me that Clem thought he was doing a good thing for those individuals who would not have otherwise gotten that piece of parchment. He hoped that giving the an extra push now would help them in the long run. I believe his intentions were initially good, but he was wrong and let it spin even further out of control. I believe he is a good person who made a bad mistake and paid the price. However, I get uneasy with the notion that he is/was a bad person. I get the feeling that some want to make that assertion. I think it's a little more complicated than that. His actions (or inactions) were bad. He is/was not.
Great post. I do think good people have made mistakes. I think Clem has done far more good than bad. The lure of winning can distort values. I also think that coaches,teachers and mentors must hold themselves to a higher standard. He paid the price.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
136
Points
43
People cheat or they do not.
Pitino was doing an interview recently and stopped himself while commenting on some obscure aspect of a recruit and said he probably was not supposed to say anything publically yet. Technically he broke the rules. Cheater or No?

Not breaking the rules but finding a new loophole which allows an unfair advantage. Cheater or No?

Hiring an attorney who is able to get the NCAA to drop something for some reason and keeps a spotless record clean. Cheater or No?
 

go_gophers

Active member
Joined
Aug 8, 2012
Messages
604
Reaction score
118
Points
43
Great post. I do think good people have made mistakes. I think Clem has done far more good than bad. The lure of winning can distort values. I also think that coaches,teachers and mentors must hold themselves to a higher standard. He paid the price.
Absolutely. His punishment was levied and his career ended. I just get the feeling some want to pile on and paint him as the devil. As a coach, my athletes have and will always serve their punishment when they break the rules. What I won't do is treat the athlete like trash and add to the punishment. In my mind, Clem has more than served his punishment.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
136
Points
43
Absolutely. His punishment was levied and his career ended. I just get the feeling some want to pile on and paint him as the devil. As a coach, my athletes have and will always serve their punishment when they break the rules. What I won't do is treat the athlete like trash and add to the punishment. In my mind, Clem has more than served his punishment.
If I am honest with myself I am still a little PO'd that he did not put a focus on making sure this was not an issue. Still, he was a good man that seemed to have a good heart that made a mistake which ended his career along with his good name (not to mention hurting the program in a big way).

Everyone makes mistakes, some bigger than others and forgiveness is in order. What is tougher to stomach is self-righteous people heaping shame on him after 20 years. They either have something to hide or are building themselves up.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
Pitino was doing an interview recently and stopped himself while commenting on some obscure aspect of a recruit and said he probably was not supposed to say anything publically yet. Technically he broke the rules. Cheater or No?

Not breaking the rules but finding a new loophole which allows an unfair advantage. Cheater or No?

Hiring an attorney who is able to get the NCAA to drop something for some reason and keeps a spotless record clean. Cheater or No?
The coaches i know do not look for loopholes.I do not look for them or use them in any aspect. I know many people in life who do not use loopholes or cheat. You decide for yourself. Coaches all know who cheats and who does not.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
If I am honest with myself I am still a little PO'd that he did not put a focus on making sure this was not an issue. Still, he was a good man that seemed to have a good heart that made a mistake which ended his career along with his good name (not to mention hurting the program in a big way).

Everyone makes mistakes, some bigger than others and forgiveness is in order. What is tougher to stomach is self-righteous people heaping shame on him after 20 years. They either have something to hide or are building themselves up.
He served his punishment. Who is heaping shame on who. Shame is something he would have a consiousness of himself. I have made my own mistakes , we were simply taught to own them, learn from them and apologize if they harmed others. Lets say i blamed a lawyer for something that happened in our office but later found out it was my dictation error. I apologize and not only clear the air but clear myself of shame. Decieving someone to falsely gain success is shaming yourself.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
136
Points
43
The coaches i know do not look for loopholes.I do not look for them or use them in any aspect. I know many people in life who do not use loopholes or cheat. You decide for yourself. Coaches all know who cheats and who does not.
Do you know Coach Pitino because I asked a specific question on whether or not he was a cheater because of an accidential "tell" in regards to a recruit?

Is a loophole the same as a cheat? (say for example on your taxes - do you pay extra just to be safe?)

If a program skirts the edge of a rule but the NCAA backs down on making an issue of it - is it really an issue.

You can't be all "high and mighty" one minute and "everyone needs to decide for themselves what right and wrong is" the next.

Do coaches have some special weekly conference call on who cheats and who doesn't? Seems like anyone could know the truth on who is cheating - even us mortals that chat with you here on the GH.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
Do you know Coach Pitino because I asked a specific question on whether or not he was a cheater because of an accidential "tell" in regards to a recruit?

Is a loophole the same as a cheat? (say for example on your taxes - do you pay extra just to be safe?)

If a program skirts the edge of a rule but the NCAA backs down on making an issue of it - is it really an issue.

You can't be all "high and mighty" one minute and "everyone needs to decide for themselves what right and wrong is" the next.

Do coaches have some special weekly conference call on who cheats and who doesn't? Seems like anyone could know the truth on who is cheating - even us mortals that chat with you here on the GH.
Have talked with both Pitino's but do not know them. Would need the specifics of the case your talking about to form a opinion. If for example a coach told a host to buy a recruit dinner and then remembered later that it is wrong then he is a fool and did something wrong.There are wonderful things that recruits get within rules, there are things that are spelled out as things you do not do. It is the job of the staff, the players, the families, the boosters and the compliance office to know them and to not break them. The final 4 is the coaches conference, after going for over forty years and visiting with coaches both professionally and socially it is very obvious who thinks what of whom. Same with scouting. Your entitled to think whatever you want. If you despise my posts or think i have myself on some sort of immortal position perhaps it is best if you block me for the benefit of the other posters. If you want my opinion on the instance your talking about then share the details. Lets try and keep it to college sports cheaters instead of speeding examples or IRS issues since those are laws and these are rules. Going through the NCAA rule book is tedious but not complicated. Above all that is a persons own ethics to not gain on your competition outside the rules. That is cheating.
 

LongLiveMilesTarver

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
1,077
Reaction score
191
Points
63
While I understand that Clem allowed for academic fraud to happen, I also think there is some context to consider. Past connections indicated to me that Clem thought he was doing a good thing for those individuals who would not have otherwise gotten that piece of parchment. He hoped that giving the an extra push now would help them in the long run. I believe his intentions were initially good, but he was wrong and let it spin even further out of control. I believe he is a good person who made a bad mistake and paid the price. However, I get uneasy with the notion that he is/was a bad person. I get the feeling that some want to make that assertion. I think it's a little more complicated than that. His actions (or inactions) were bad. He is/was not.
I think it's telling how 99.9 percent of his former players adore the guy and would run through a wall for him. I highly doubt Cliff Alexander would do the same for Self.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
I think it's telling how 99.9 percent of his former players adore the guy and would run through a wall for him. I highly doubt Cliff Alexander would do the same for Self.
Certainly Clem's guys loved him, that was evident on the floor. He had many strengths.
 

obobo55

Active member
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
112
Reaction score
33
Points
28
Ok, this may be taking things off the rails and off-topic, but how do you feel about Barry Bonds?

My perspective is that he was the best player of his generation. He was clean and successful through his early career and until '98. Then he watches Sosa and McGuire become superstars and benefit (both individually and team) from clearly juicing. At the time, there is no rule in baseball outlawing the practice.

He decides to also juice for 2 reasons. One, there is no repercussion for doing so. Secondly, he wants to win a title.

Is it cheating? Yes. In the realm of baseball that existed at the time however, I can understand why any player would make that choice.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
Ok, this may be taking things off the rails and off-topic, but how do you feel about Barry Bonds?

My perspective is that he was the best player of his generation. He was clean and successful through his early career and until '98. Then he watches Sosa and McGuire become superstars and benefit (both individually and team) from clearly juicing. At the time, there is no rule in baseball outlawing the practice.

He decides to also juice for 2 reasons. One, there is no repercussion for doing so. Secondly, he wants to win a title.

Is it cheating? Yes. In the realm of baseball that existed at the time however, I can understand why any player would make that choice.
I feel he had a hall of fame career before his cheating and will never understand the ego that needs to lie and cheat. As someone who still competes at everything i believe in the sporting nature of giving it every ounce of your concentration and effort in pursuit of winning but if i gave it my all then having the grace to congratulate my opponent. How you conduct yourself is the one sure pay off. Cheating treats yourself poorly and caused someone else a injustice. When someone cheats against me i just want to beat them even more.
 

CPTMidnight

Active member
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
136
Points
43
Have talked with both Pitino's but do not know them. Would need the specifics of the case your talking about to form a opinion. If for example a coach told a host to buy a recruit dinner and then remembered later that it is wrong then he is a fool and did something wrong.There are wonderful things that recruits get within rules, there are things that are spelled out as things you do not do. It is the job of the staff, the players, the families, the boosters and the compliance office to know them and to not break them. The final 4 is the coaches conference, after going for over forty years and visiting with coaches both professionally and socially it is very obvious who thinks what of whom. Same with scouting. Your entitled to think whatever you want. If you despise my posts or think i have myself on some sort of immortal position perhaps it is best if you block me for the benefit of the other posters. If you want my opinion on the instance your talking about then share the details. Lets try and keep it to college sports cheaters instead of speeding examples or IRS issues since those are laws and these are rules. Going through the NCAA rule book is tedious but not complicated. Above all that is a persons own ethics to not gain on your competition outside the rules. That is cheating.
OK big shooter... For someone that probably makes about 20% of all the posts on this forum you have the least to say.

It is typical attorney speak. You ask a simple question and in return you get 45 minutes of hypotheticals, 15 minutes of stories of them rubbing shoulders with industry leaders and a $600 bill. Are all attorneys in love with themselves?

We are all big time players here on the internet. I could go into my experience working with both college and pro sport teams including rubbing shoulders with the coaches, owners and athletes, flying with them on the team planes, but who really cares.

Either you can further define the cheater term you keep throwing around or you cannot. If we are too much trouble just ban all of us that do not feed your ego. Save yourself the trouble of responding.
 

gophereric30

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
827
Reaction score
252
Points
63
I feel he had a hall of fame career before his cheating and will never understand the ego that needs to lie and cheat. As someone who still competes at everything i believe in the sporting nature of giving it every ounce of your concentration and effort in pursuit of winning but if i gave it my all then having the grace to congratulate my opponent. How you conduct yourself is the one sure pay off. Cheating treats yourself poorly and caused someone else a injustice. When someone cheats against me i just want to beat them even more.
Been saying that for years. Bonds was a hall of Famer before he cheated.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
OK big shooter... For someone that probably makes about 20% of all the posts on this forum you have the least to say.

It is typical attorney speak. You ask a simple question and in return you get 45 minutes of hypotheticals, 15 minutes of stories of them rubbing shoulders with industry leaders and a $600 bill. Are all attorneys in love with themselves?

We are all big time players here on the internet. I could go into my experience working with both college and pro sport teams including rubbing shoulders with the coaches, owners and athletes, flying with them on the team planes, but who really cares.

Either you can further define the cheater term you keep throwing around or you cannot. If we are too much trouble just ban all of us that do not feed your ego. Save yourself the trouble of responding.
Is it hard to know what rules are. Your the one the brought up some event i am unaware off and will not explain what it was in detail, all the while asking for my opinion. Look up the report on exactly Clem did, those are violations, cheating. Your the one bragging about flying on team planes, rubbing shoulders is not something i do. At our firm we do not round up, we charge a flat fee. If what i say means nothing to you simply skip it. You can not feed or deflate anything personally
on a message board. Believe whatever makes you feel better. If typing insults is your contribution then that is your contribution.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
11,707
Reaction score
998
Points
113
The coaches i know do not look for loopholes.I do not look for them or use them in any aspect. I know many people in life who do not use loopholes or cheat. You decide for yourself. Coaches all know who cheats and who does not.
One small nit, looking for the loopholes is the opposite of cheating. It is strategically playing by the rules.
 

BarnBurner

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
10,833
Reaction score
530
Points
113
Is it hard to know what rules are. Your the one the brought up some event i am unaware off and will not explain what it was in detail, all the while asking for my opinion. Look up the report on exactly Clem did, those are violations, cheating. Your the one bragging about flying on team planes, rubbing shoulders is not something i do. At our firm we do not round up, we charge a flat fee. If what i say means nothing to you simply skip it. You can not feed or deflate anything personally
on a message board. Believe whatever makes you feel better. If typing insults is your contribution then that is your contribution.
Midnight is owning the fraud badger. Sure enough, the line about insults and ignore. Clockwork.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
5,694
Reaction score
1,429
Points
113
One small nit, looking for the loopholes is the opposite of cheating. It is strategically playing by the rules.
Understand. The coaches i know do not need to look for loopholes. They simply follow the rules.
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
13,708
Reaction score
1,848
Points
113
Ok, this may be taking things off the rails and off-topic, but how do you feel about Barry Bonds?

My perspective is that he was the best player of his generation. He was clean and successful through his early career and until '98. Then he watches Sosa and McGuire become superstars and benefit (both individually and team) from clearly juicing. At the time, there is no rule in baseball outlawing the practice.

He decides to also juice for 2 reasons. One, there is no repercussion for doing so. Secondly, he wants to win a title.

Is it cheating? Yes. In the realm of baseball that existed at the time however, I can understand why any player would make that choice.
Only in America, is it "cheating" that a guy is naturally gifted at guiding a stick of wood to make contact with a violently spinning little white orb, flying at you 100mph ... oh but he "artificially" gave himself bigger muscles (which you still have to put in the time lifting the weights!), which has literally nothing to do with the skill, precision, and timing needed to hit a baseball.

Yep. "cheating" :rolleyes:
 

MplsGopher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2017
Messages
13,708
Reaction score
1,848
Points
113
Understand. The coaches i know do not need to look for loopholes. They simply follow the rules.
A loophole is, by definition, not not following the rules. It is allowed by the rules. That's the point.
 

gophereric30

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
827
Reaction score
252
Points
63
Only in America, is it "cheating" that a guy is naturally gifted at guiding a stick of wood to make contact with a violently spinning little white orb, flying at you 100mph ... oh but he "artificially" gave himself bigger muscles (which you still have to put in the time lifting the weights!), which has literally nothing to do with the skill, precision, and timing needed to hit a baseball.

Yep. "cheating" :rolleyes:
Yep let's not forget the guy throwing the ball to him also has bigger muscles lol
 
Top Bottom