National Council of Churches

golf

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Reminds me of a convo I had with a pastor of ours. He talked about an instructor at seminary who, any time a question came up that there wasn't an answer to, would dramatically and comically say, "It's a mystery."

Which is not a joke. Just as there are infinite mysteries of the physical universe, practically everything in the spiritual world is a mystery to human beings. And just like we try to understand the physical universe by peering through telescopes from one single point, we try to understand everything about the spiritual universe by reading the Bible. In both cases, it's obviously insufficient.

There is certainly an element of faith in any viewpoint in this area.
 

Bad Gopher

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Okay.

For myself, I can't equate the natural world with the "spiritual world". I know the natural world exists; I've never seen any reason to believe that there is a spiritual world.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but when you refer to the spiritual world, do you mean the unknown, or all things unexplained (to date)? Because obviously there is much we do not know.
Hard to know exactly how to respond, especially since the point of my post is how mysterious everything is. People of faith--and many people without a belief in God--recognize that there's a spiritual aspect to reality, in many cases based on observation and evidence. Simply put, a lot of things that happen are unexplainable with conventional science. Keep in mind, too, that there was a time when the things we understand today as modern physics were unexplained by the conventions of the day, which were largely Newtonian physics. Even then, though, there was plenty of evidence that there was something else going on that we didn't have a handle on (e.g. the Morley Mikkelson experiment).
 

RememberMurray

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Hard to know exactly how to respond, especially since the point of my post is how mysterious everything is. People of faith--and many people without a belief in God--recognize that there's a spiritual aspect to reality, in many cases based on observation and evidence. Simply put, a lot of things that happen are unexplainable with conventional science. Keep in mind, too, that there was a time when the things we understand today as modern physics were unexplained by the conventions of the day, which were largely Newtonian physics. Even then, though, there was plenty of evidence that there was something else going on that we didn't have a handle on (e.g. the Morley Mikkelson experiment).

Well... you're basically making my point for me.

As I posted earlier, humans once attributed volcanic eruptions, plagues, floods etc. to supernatural causes. But science has advanced human knowledge to the point where no one believes those things anymore. Supernatural explanations for these phenomena are laughable nowadays; we now know that all of them have natural causes.

Science will probably never explain all 'mysteries', but science continues to keep making new breakthroughs in human knowledge possible.

To me, latching on to a story, myth or legend involving the supernatural, and claiming the story is true (or sometimes even that the story is 'the one true way'), doesn't really answer any questions about the unknown. When searching for real, true explanation, a made-up story is not the same thing as a proven fact.

A story, fable or myth might be comforting when we contemplate, say, what happens when we die and/or the so-called 'afterlife', but the fact that some people are comforted by them doesn't mean the stories are literally true.
 
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Bad Gopher

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Well... you're basically making my point for me.

As I posted earlier, humans once attributed volcanic eruptions, plagues, floods etc. to supernatural causes. But science has advanced human knowledge to the point where no one believes those things anymore. Supernatural explanations for these phenomena are laughable nowadays; we now know that all of them have natural causes.

Science will probably never explain all 'mysteries', but science continues to keep making new breakthroughs in human knowledge possible.

To me, latching on to a story, myth or legend involving the supernatural, and claiming the story is true (or sometimes even that the story is 'the one true way'), doesn't really answer any questions about the unknown. When searching for real, true explanation, a made-up story is not the same thing as a proven fact.

A story, fable or myth might be comforting when we contemplate, say, what happens when we die and/or the so-called 'afterlife', but the fact that some people are comforted by them doesn't mean the stories are literally true.
And you're making my point. The only reasons things are classified as supernatural is that they're not understood and addressed by conventional understanding at a moment in time. Fear and willful ignorance occur in science, too. It's human nature.
 

RememberMurray

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And you're making my point. The only reasons things are classified as supernatural is that they're not understood and addressed by conventional understanding at a moment in time. Fear and willful ignorance occur in science, too. It's human nature.

Of course, you're right that it's a part of human nature to seek an explanation for the unknown. Yes. Some people, like me, need fact-based, provable, tested explanations. Lacking that, we classify a mystery, an unknown, as exactly that. I have no interest in supernatural explanations, because they're unprovable.

The bolded part of your post really left me scratching my head.

Here's a definition of the scientific method I found:

In a typical application of the scientific method, a researcher develops a hypothesis, tests it through various means, and then modifies the hypothesis on the basis of the outcome of the tests and experiments.


I don't see how fear or, especially, willful ignorance would fit in that framework at all.
 

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Of course, you're right that it's a part of human nature to seek an explanation for the unknown. Yes. Some people, like me, need fact-based, provable, tested explanations. Lacking that, we classify a mystery, an unknown, as exactly that. I have no interest in supernatural explanations, because they're unprovable.

The bolded part of your post really left me scratching my head.

Here's a definition of the scientific method I found:

In a typical application of the scientific method, a researcher develops a hypothesis, tests it through various means, and then modifies the hypothesis on the basis of the outcome of the tests and experiments.


I don't see how fear or, especially, willful ignorance would fit in that framework at all.
You don't have to look hard for examples of science getting too locked in on hypotheses and models and ignore evidence and observation to the contrary. Keep in mind, I'm in engineering, so I see it.
 

RememberMurray

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You don't have to look hard for examples of science getting too locked in on hypotheses and models and ignore evidence and observation to the contrary. Keep in mind, I'm in engineering, so I see it.

Human beings bring human frailty to any method. That doesn't mean the method itself is flawed.

Science that is conducted rigorously and thoroughly is clearly the best method devised yet by imperfect humans to find reliable, provable answers about our world. Maybe someday we will come up with a better one; for now, it's clearly the best way to solve mysteries.
 

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Human beings bring human frailty to any method. That doesn't mean the method itself flawed.

Science that is conducted rigorously and thoroughly is clearly the best method devised yet by imperfect humans to find reliable, provable answers about our world. Maybe someday we will come up with a better one; for now, it's clearly the best way to solve mysteries.
To reprise my original point, the universe is "bigger" and weirder than we can observe and measure from where we sit and with our current capabilities. That anyone thinks we have all the answers and can rule out anything is the height of hubris.
 

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To reprise my original point, the universe is "bigger" and weirder than we can observe and measure from where we sit and with our current capabilities. That anyone thinks we have all the answers and can rule out anything is the height of hubris.

Nobody claimed we have all the answers.

The closest you'll come to someone who claims they have the source of all truth and knowledge would be a person who says their God is infallible, omnipotent, omniscient, and they know exactly what their God wants us to do.

Science is the best method we have to date to search for the answers.
 

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It was really something that the themes of the readings of the day in the Catholic Missal last Sunday were joining, belonging, welcoming, community, and also unity.
 

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I found proof that God exists.
D7MQilkXoAAIeDA.jpg
 

Section2

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Agreed. We will have to raise the wages of everyone. Which will cause a rise in prices. Putting minimum wage earners exactly where they were in the first place. Nice job!!
 

Section2

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It has to drive Trumpkins crazy that Biden is so obviously a much better Christian than Trump

Obviously not a Trumpkin, but just as obvious to me that Trump isn’t really a Christian. Most Christian Trump supporters I know were under no delusions, just thought he would implement policies they liked. They were probably the minority though.
 

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Obviously not a Trumpkin, but just as obvious to me that Trump isn’t really a Christian. Most Christian Trump supporters I know were under no delusions, just thought he would implement policies they liked. They were probably the minority though.
Single-issue-voters gonna single-issue-vote.
 

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Which will cause a rise in prices.
Nope.

People are highly sensitive to prices. You can't just raise them, and not have to deal with very angry people and those who will just walk away and give you the middle finger.

Never worked that way.
 
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