"Liberate Minnesota"

cjbfbp

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Can you imagine trying to fight World War II in the present disinformational society? Other than a few incendiary bombs that hit the west coast, this country was never attacked. Sure as shit there would be a lot of people claiming the war was a hoax to control the population and boost Roosevelt's popularity.
There was a joke from that era about two German citizens. After they watched bombs dropping from Allied planes, they turned to each other and said "Propaganda!"
 

howeda7

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BG, there are books and other research out there that roosevelt knew japan was planning to attack pearl harbor but didnt warn them in order to make sure popular opinion would be to go to war.

The citizens wanted nothing to do with entering another war at the time. Im not sure how true that theory is, but let's not pretend the WWII era was all truth and transparency
Good lord. There are people willing to claim that every war/attack our nation has ever been involved in was a hoax. Bush knew about 9/11. Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor. I bet Clinton knew about Oklahoma city too, right?
 

howeda7

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Can you imagine trying to fight World War II in the present disinformational society? Other than a few incendiary bombs that hit the west coast, this country was never attacked. Sure as shit there would be a lot of people claiming the war was a hoax to control the population and boost Roosevelt's popularity.
The ability to have all the information in the world at our finger tips, and yet the internet has made us infinitely dumber as a society.
 
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JimmyJamesMD

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Good lord. There are people willing to claim that every war/attack our nation has ever been involved in was a hoax. Bush knew about 9/11. Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor. I bet Clinton knew about Oklahoma city too, right?
dont be mad
 

saintpaulguy

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Why do you insist on arguing with this idiotic troll? There's no upside to that. I really don't understand why a number of you continue giving him opportunities to spout his nonsense. He spouts trollish garbage. You try to refute him like he's a normal person. He spouts more garbage. You react again. Rinse and repeat.
It is interesting to find that rare specimen--someone who has as a core belief that if you aren't similar to me, you are wrong. A Christian whose primarily forensic tool is teasing and ridicule. Not at all invested in the Conservative principle of individual freedom but the maintenance of the status quo instead. Troll, socket puppet, or what have you, whatever is behind it either believes this stuff, or spends a lot of time letting this character they have created occupy their time.
 

Deleted_User

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BG, there are books and other research out there that roosevelt knew japan was planning to attack pearl harbor but didnt warn them in order to make sure popular opinion would be to go to war.

The citizens wanted nothing to do with entering another war at the time. Im not sure how true that theory is, but let's not pretend the WWII era was all truth and transparency
Intelligence before WWII is not like today with multiple agencies and methods. This conspiracy theory has been debunked and debunked again and again. Knowing what you post, I would recommend you do some reading from some of the better historians out there. General John Leyton has a great book on the intel on naval intel in the Pacific from before the war to the end. He would have known all the intelligence on it, since he was the head of much of it.
 

JimmyJamesMD

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Intelligence before WWII is not like today with multiple agencies and methods. This conspiracy theory has been debunked and debunked again and again. Knowing what you post, I would recommend you do some reading from some of the better historians out there. General John Leyton has a great book on the intel on naval intel in the Pacific from before the war to the end. He would have known all the intelligence on it, since he was the head of much of it.
thanks ill take a look
 

MplsGopher

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Massachusetts. Back to it being a hoax.
So ... a group of 150, 200 people gets to decide what the state of Mass has to do for 6.8M people. Because they're loud and angry.

F em. Spray them with fire hoses. If they can stand there and still protest, then maybe we should listen to them.
 

short ornery norwegian

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More MN cities are joining the list. The Springfield MN city council passed a resolution and sent it to the Governor, calling on the Gov to end the stay-at-home order. The resolution stated that decisions on closing businesses should be made at the local level.

The Windom MN city council did not go quite that far, but it did send out a letter to local businesses urging the businesses to call or e-mail the Governor's office and request that he end the stay at home order and allow small businesses to open providing they take the proper precautions. A member of the Windom City council referred to the current state of affairs as "tyranny."
 

Bad Gopher

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So ... a group of 150, 200 people gets to decide what the state of Mass has to do for 6.8M people. Because they're loud and angry.

F em. Spray them with fire hoses. If they can stand there and still protest, then maybe we should listen to them.
Even going back before this crisis, the Trump people I know were angrier since his inauguration than they were before, when Obama was in office. That trend continues unabated, and there's no reason to think it'll reverse. Trying to sooth them and avoid upsetting them is of no use. They just keep getting angrier. This is just something to focus their growing anger on.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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More MN cities are joining the list. The Springfield MN city council passed a resolution and sent it to the Governor, calling on the Gov to end the stay-at-home order. The resolution stated that decisions on closing businesses should be made at the local level.

The Windom MN city council did not go quite that far, but it did send out a letter to local businesses urging the businesses to call or e-mail the Governor's office and request that he end the stay at home order and allow small businesses to open providing they take the proper precautions. A member of the Windom City council referred to the current state of affairs as "tyranny."
Pretty funny how some of the national media and the usual suspects on here ripped Kristi Noem in SD for not mandating a statewide shutdown, when she left it up to the cities and towns. She also citied data and Science as her reasons, and that SD doesn't need to be treated like NYC.

Fast forward and now we have cities and towns working to defy the governors orders as MN continues to fare worse than SD. Pretty much everything is now open in SD, even in Sioux Falls, with new measures and social distancing.
 

MplsGopher

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Why are people saying that SD has done better than Minn??

SD - 3282 cases/M population
Minn - 2092 cases/M population
 

Section2

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Even going back before this crisis, the Trump people I know were angrier since his inauguration than they were before, when Obama was in office. That trend continues unabated, and there's no reason to think it'll reverse. Trying to sooth them and avoid upsetting them is of no use. They just keep getting angrier. This is just something to focus their growing anger on.
You must be joking.
 

Section2

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Pretty funny how some of the national media and the usual suspects on here ripped Kristi Noem in SD for not mandating a statewide shutdown, when she left it up to the cities and towns. She also citied data and Science as her reasons, and that SD doesn't need to be treated like NYC.

Fast forward and now we have cities and towns working to defy the governors orders as MN continues to fare worse than SD. Pretty much everything is now open in SD, even in Sioux Falls, with new measures and social distancing.
Howie hasn't been raging about Kristi Noem lately, so I figured she must have nailed it.
 

bga1

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Why are people saying that SD has done better than Minn??

SD - 3282 cases/M population
Minn - 2092 cases/M population
South Dakota deaths per million = 38
Minnesota deaths per million = 105
Any further questions??

Yeah, Minnesota has done horribly by comparison....with more business closures.
 

chri1673

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Why are people saying that SD has done better than Minn??

SD - 3282 cases/M population
Minn - 2092 cases/M population
If we are to compare different states, no one should be using cases/million as as standalone metric to compare states... (apologize if your post was sarcasm)

Should at least add:

SD - 27782 TESTS/MILLION
MINN - 20530 TESTS/MILLION

SD - 38 DEATHS/MILLION
MINN - 105 DEATHS/MILLION

SD pretty clearly doing a better job protecting their elderly/at risk, unless this is just dumb luck. It doesn't look particularly close. Things could change i guess.

 

howeda7

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If we are to compare different states, no one should be using cases/million as as standalone metric to compare states... (apologize if your post was sarcasm)

Should at least add:

SD - 27782 TESTS/MILLION
MINN - 20530 TESTS/MILLION

SD - 38 DEATHS/MILLION
MINN - 105 DEATHS/MILLION

SD pretty clearly doing a better job protecting their elderly/at risk, unless this is just dumb luck. It doesn't look particularly close. Things could change i guess.

Unless you know something specific that is being done in nursing homes in SD that's not being done in MN, it's probably that.
 

MplsGopher

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Minnesota has done worse because it has less cases, but unfortunately has far more nursing home deaths, which is completely out of its control and due to bad luck?

SD had a ton of cases, but were mainly people working in meat plants that should have been shut down by the state, instead of being in nursing homes.

Any way you slice it, Minn has done better than SD when you compare the situations and what the state actually has control over.
 

GopherJake

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I'm curious if anyone thinks any politicians are fudging (too strong of a word here, but you get the idea) case and death numbers to serve political goals. Like for instance, if I am a governor and I want to justify opening things up, I sure want my case and death numbers low. If I am a president running for re-election, I sure want those numbers dropping. There's a lot of incentive to look at statistics and reporting guidelines in different ways, depending upon what your goals are.

Not pointing at anyone. Just an observation.
 

howeda7

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South Dakota deaths per million = 38
Minnesota deaths per million = 105
Any further questions??

Yeah, Minnesota has done horribly by comparison....with more business closures.
It's a good thing that deaths is the only thing that matters. No one who survives is remotely effected.
 

howeda7

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I'm curious if anyone thinks any politicians are fudging (too strong of a word here, but you get the idea) case and death numbers to serve political goals. Like for instance, if I am a governor and I want to justify opening things up, I sure want my case and death numbers low. If I am a president running for re-election, I sure want those numbers dropping. There's a lot of incentive to look at statistics and reporting guidelines in different ways, depending upon what your goals are.

Not pointing at anyone. Just an observation.
Nothing would shock me. In some states Governors have more control over what gets reported than others.
 

Deleted_User

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If we are to compare different states, no one should be using cases/million as as standalone metric to compare states... (apologize if your post was sarcasm)

Should at least add:

SD - 27782 TESTS/MILLION
MINN - 20530 TESTS/MILLION

SD - 38 DEATHS/MILLION
MINN - 105 DEATHS/MILLION

SD pretty clearly doing a better job protecting their elderly/at risk, unless this is just dumb luck. It doesn't look particularly close. Things could change i guess.

This is one of the dumbest posts on epidemiology I have ever seen. First, it is essential to determine the agent (SARS-Cov-2) under investigation. Second, determine if SARS-CoV-2 is the cause of Covid-19. Then, you need to assess the impact of the occurence of Covid-19 from those people EXPOSED to the disease. So, comparing the millions to millions is completely unfiltered to what you are trying to study. The unexposed person has nothing to do with the exposure/illness ratio. Nothing whatsoever. You don't investigate muskrats for a foodborne illness, because they are an animal around a picnic site. And, you don't investigate people in St. Louis county for foodborne illness when you know the only instances were at a picnic in Rice county that involved a single family.

So, for my example of the picnic, the food borne illness would encompass the number of people who ate the suspect food and became ill divided by the number of people who ate the specific suspect food.

Your illustration above includes people who have never been exposed or have not become ill from an exposure. That taints the picture. It is like including families in St. Louis county uninvolved with the picnic in the data.

Your illustration is completely effed up and tragically stupid. The study of epidemiology is a science which wants to know the occurrence of the disease in populations related to the presence or absence of factors within that group, I have seen so many people distort numbers on GH related to supposed epidemiology that have messed up data, even with high degrees of mathematical ability, to be worthless across the board. The data presented has been effectively USELESS information.

It would be like commenting on a football game by saying the other team gained a first down by stealing second base. It all sounds reasonable, until you examine the data and find out everybody not at the picnic who happen to be mammals in St. Louis county are going to be studied because they may have heard of the picnic, played football by stealing second base. Absolutely moronic.

Everything related to numbers on this thread have been equally moronic as my example in the above paragraph. This is why I cannot relate to this thread on a more consistent basis because it is making all of us dumber for participating. Go ahead, keep debating how stealing second base gets you a first down in a football game. It looks reasonable until you realize you are talking about football, only football, and the rules of baseball have nothing to do with football.

God Almighty, why do I bother.
 

bga1

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I'm curious if anyone thinks any politicians are fudging (too strong of a word here, but you get the idea) case and death numbers to serve political goals. Like for instance, if I am a governor and I want to justify opening things up, I sure want my case and death numbers low. If I am a president running for re-election, I sure want those numbers dropping. There's a lot of incentive to look at statistics and reporting guidelines in different ways, depending upon what your goals are.

Not pointing at anyone. Just an observation.
One thing I give Minnesota credit for is they have played it straight (it seems) on reporting deaths- even though the political tilt of Walz is towards closures. I think Walz has done a lousy job but I appreciate the reporting on deaths. New York and Michigan, I would suspect them of what you are saying. The larger the state and death tolls, the more opportunity for fudging.
 

saintpaulguy

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Minnesota has done worse because it has less cases, but unfortunately has far more nursing home deaths, which is completely out of its control and due to bad luck?

SD had a ton of cases, but were mainly people working in meat plants that should have been shut down by the state, instead of being in nursing homes.

Any way you slice it, Minn has done better than SD when you compare the situations and what the state actually has control over.
I don't think we should automatically put meat cutters in nursing homes.
 

MplsGopher

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It's a good thing that deaths is the only thing that matters. No one who survives is remotely effected.
Nor is there any burden to society, like the cost of lost labor or the cost of healthcare to treat someone who is sick but recovers. Or like the cost of ongoing healthcare treatment for chronic disease caused by the infection, or the cost of unnecessary deaths due to overcrowded hospitals. (y)
 
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