High school football returns to Minnesota this fall

Some guy

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Seems like there is more discussion about the League and its bureaucracy, rather then a discussion about the kids and the talent on each team. Many hard working talented kids being cleared to play in their most important season. With the rough weather up here, it would have been nice to get games started in two weeks. Which programs will be the strongest in state? I see the running back from CP signed with UST.
The usual suspects in the metro. The wild card will be which schools shut down sports when/if they go from hybrid to all online.

If I was a gambler, I’d bet on private schools because they’ll stay open
 

Some guy

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It's certainly not been ideal. I'm no defender of the MSHSL (and in fact, don't even live in the state any longer), but I'd be curious what improvements you'd suggest. As noted above, a lot of this began when teams started fleeing the old Classic Lake Conference, then the Lake Conference. You then had the remaining teams -- EP, Minnetonka, Edina, Hopkins, and Wayzata -- needing to find 4 opponents each year. This led to trips to the UP in Michigan, games against the same opponent twice in one year, and even a team from Texas coming up to play Hopkins. Combined with the rapidly changing and shrinking demographics of first ring suburbs like Hopkins, Robbinsdale, etc. and the boom in places like St. Michael, Shakopee, etc., the conference structure was sure to continue crumbling as teams tried to rearrange themselves for competitive advantage. Order definitely needed to be brought, although as you've pointed out, it really hasn't worked perfectly.
what they should do is stop having sections AND scheduling districts.
sections and scheduling districts should be the same thing.

The 6A football schedule should be 32 teams playing 8 games.
7 games in their section and a random draw week 1 crossover

But MSHSL tries to legislate winning rather than fairness because they don’t know the difference. So 3 6A schools play 5A schedules and 1 6A school plays a 5A schedule and goes to 5A state tourney.

For some reason The MSHSL is okay with eagan going 0-8 every year but they aren’t okay with Hopkins, forest lake, or coon rapids doing it



the lower level is more difficult to schedule because there aren’t 8 teams in each section. But again. The scheduling districts and sections should be the same thing. Resection with even numbers of teams in every section. Play your section. Cross over with another section to get to 8
 

short ornery norwegian

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I agree that the move to a district football system was a direct result of the scheduling issues in the Twin cities. There was a stretch where teams just flat out refused to schedule Eden Prairie and forced EP to schedule games against teams from other states. with district scheduling, teams were guaranteed of having 8 games against teams from MN.

the thing is, no matter where you draw the lines, some team is always going to be the biggest team in a class and some team is going to be the smallest team in a class.

with the district system, the idea was that you would have a larger pool of teams compared to your section, making scheduling more flexible. In my experience, the district system has worked out fairly well in the smaller classes.

one of the ongoing issues is the rare larger school that is located in a rural area - like Marshall. they have to travel to heck and back to play teams of comparable size.

there are no perfect solutions.
 

Taji34

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If it didn't have the travel time implications it did, I would be behind some sort of relegation system to determine the different levels.
 

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Tell that to ST Francis who is about half their size: is closer to being 4A than 6A and lost 40-0 to a 6A school in the 5A playoffs due to “fairness”


the high school shouldn’t be in the business of picking winners and losers for “fairness”


coon rapids is losing too much
Let’s move them down and let them win more at the expense of:
St Francis 40 point loss
Irondale 38 point loss
Park Center 28 point loss

Using coon rapids logic I guess we should move down those 3 so they don’t get blown out...since getting blown out was a good enough excuse to move coon rapids down


meanwhile is 6A:
Eagan 1-35 their last 36 games
Anoka 2-25 their last 27
I thought Anoka is one of the largest schools in the state?
 

Tommyboy

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It seems like every other sport is gets more coverage. I wanted to hear about the teams and players and all everyone is talking about is how messed up the scheduling is.
 

Some guy

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I thought Anoka is one of the largest schools in the state?
Coon rapids is also one of the largest schools in the state

6A football is the 32 largest minus coming in b rapids for fairness
 

Some guy

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I agree that the move to a district football system was a direct result of the scheduling issues in the Twin cities. There was a stretch where teams just flat out refused to schedule Eden Prairie and forced EP to schedule games against teams from other states. with district scheduling, teams were guaranteed of having 8 games against teams from MN.

the thing is, no matter where you draw the lines, some team is always going to be the biggest team in a class and some team is going to be the smallest team in a class.

with the district system, the idea was that you would have a larger pool of teams compared to your section, making scheduling more flexible. In my experience, the district system has worked out fairly well in the smaller classes.

one of the ongoing issues is the rare larger school that is located in a rural area - like Marshall. they have to travel to heck and back to play teams of comparable size.

there are no perfect solutions.
I agree with you mostly here. My gripe is how they replaced a scheduling system that worked great for 97% of teams with one that works mediocre for 100%.
I guess 3% got an upgrade. As did coon rapids
 

Tommyboy

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I still think we are one of the only states during a season talking about the HS schedules instead of the teams and players.
 
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For sure.
And for metro big school football it’s such a gong show it’s essentially run by the league. I admittedly have no idea how well the district scheduling system works for non metro football. It’s absolutely awful in the metro. Destroys rivalries and causes booster clubs to be short money due to small crowds not buying as many concessions.

The state high school league is the worst run organization in the state as evidenced by their handling of fall sports from early august until now.
Unfortunately you sound uninformed. You do understand that 6A schools drove and supported district football? Do you remember teams not being able to get games beachside no one wanted to play them?
Schools create the options like districts. Their Board makes decides whether or not to adopt them
 

short ornery norwegian

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I still think we are one of the only states during a season talking about the HS schedules instead of the teams and players.
from my perspective, when the MSHSL announced the season was postponed until next spring, I basically put FB and VB out of my mind, and didn't give them another thought.

then, the MSHSL pulls an about-face, and now people who had basically stopped thinking about FB and VB have to pull their own about face and embrace the reality that those sports are back and games will be played.

without going back and pulling out my notes and results from last year, I would have a hard time naming more than a couple of starters for any team in my area. I just put football out of my mind - and now it's like I have to jump-start that portion of my brain.

I think people are still coming to grips with the new reality. And maybe - there is still just a little fear/concern that covid will somehow screw everything up again.
 

Some guy

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Unfortunately you sound uninformed. You do understand that 6A schools drove and supported district football? Do you remember teams not being able to get games beachside no one wanted to play them?
Schools create the options like districts. Their Board makes decides whether or not to adopt them
The majority of 6a football supporting district football 8 years ago does not mean that it is run well today.
Did you know in 1972 Minnesota voted for Nixon?
 

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Kids are safer in monitored environments. Being checked at school and sports, that would not happen if they were not in school.
 

Some guy

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I still think we are one of the only states during a season talking about the HS schedules instead of the teams and players.
There aren’t many teams and players to talk about. Most of the high end talent in the state were seniors last year. There will be a lot of unknowns going into the year this year.

last year was the first since maybe 2004 where eden prairie didn’t make state

I think Torino grace has a good quarterback and they’re the least likely to self-cancel due to Covid. So I’d make them the 6A favorites just based on that.


5a id expect Elk River, Andover, and chasms to be the best teams in the metro.
I’d expect the usual suspects of Owatonna and Mankato west to be good down south


interesting stuff to watch down south where I think some of the better 3a and 4A schools lost some kids to Iowa.
not sure if any northwestern Minnesota schools lost kids to North Dakota
 

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Tell that to ST Francis who is about half their size: is closer to being 4A than 6A and lost 40-0 to a 6A school in the 5A playoffs due to “fairness”


the high school shouldn’t be in the business of picking winners and losers for “fairness”


coon rapids is losing too much
Let’s move them down and let them win more at the expense of:
St Francis 40 point loss
Irondale 38 point loss
Park Center 28 point loss

Using coon rapids logic I guess we should move down those 3 so they don’t get blown out...since getting blown out was a good enough excuse to move coon rapids down


meanwhile is 6A:
Eagan 1-35 their last 36 games
Anoka 2-25 their last 27
St Francis is 1400 students, Coon Rapids is 2050. Coon Rapids also has a 45% free lunch rate vs 22.5% for St Francis. I think when you factor in the Free Lunch rate it's not that lopsided of a matchup.
 
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Some guy

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St Francis is 1400 students, Coon Rapids is 2050. Not that huge of a difference. Coon Rapids also has a 45% free lunch rate vs 22.5% for St Francis. Doesn't seem that lopsided to me.
Lakeville north has fewer student than coon rapids.
Coon rapids is the 24th largest school in the state after the free and reduced lunch enrollment done by the MSHSL

Osseo has a smaller enrollment after the adjustment and they go 2-16 the last two years. Why do they go 2-16 against 6a when coon rapids who is bigger and more wealthy goes to the state semi’s in 5a?

It’s fine if you want to pick winners and losers. I disagree with you. I don’t think that MSHSL should be in the business of saying coon rapids should win more let’s classify them differently but it’s okay if osseo loses
 

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I thought Anoka is one of the largest schools in the state?
Anoka is 2,280ish. Big, but not top ten.
Used to be bigger before Andover HS was built (and Champlin Park way before that).
Top ten are:
Wayzata, Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, Blaine, Champlin Park, Stillwater, Prior Lake, Edina, Shakopee, Burnsville.
 

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Anoka is 2,280ish. Big, but not top ten.
Used to be bigger before Andover HS was built (and Champlin Park way before that).
Top ten are:
Wayzata, Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, Blaine, Champlin Park, Stillwater, Prior Lake, Edina, Shakopee, Burnsville.
If a class is explicitly created with the intent of creating a 32 team class with the 32 biggest plus schools that opt up (cretin and Totino grace)...I’d argue that 24th coon rapids should be in that class. Just like all the other 32 biggest schools
 

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Lakeville north has fewer student than coon rapids.
Coon rapids is the 24th largest school in the state after the free and reduced lunch enrollment done by the MSHSL

Osseo has a smaller enrollment after the adjustment and they go 2-16 the last two years. Why do they go 2-16 against 6a when coon rapids who is bigger and more wealthy goes to the state semi’s in 5a?

It’s fine if you want to pick winners and losers. I disagree with you. I don’t think that MSHSL should be in the business of saying coon rapids should win more let’s classify them differently but it’s okay if osseo loses
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say picking winners and losers.
I wasn't arguing the choice between Osseo and Coon Rapids. Could be equally bad decisions there. I was just pointing out that the matchup between St. Francis and Coon Rapids is not that "out there" when you factor in the poverty level.
Sounds like Osseo should probably be in 5A too.
 

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I have no idea what you're talking about when you say picking winners and losers.
I wasn't arguing the choice between Osseo and Coon Rapids. Could be equally bad decisions there. I was just pointing out that the matchup between St. Francis and Coon Rapids is not that "out there" when you factor in the poverty level.
Sounds like Osseo should probably be in 5A too.
If everyone is in 5a nobody is in 6a
6a was created so teams like Owatonna and the Rochester’s could compete for state titles.

if the state high school league wants 32 teams, they should put in 32.


they literally said for 32...and now it’s 31 because for whatever reason they said coon rapids can move down. They have turned down other 6a schools attempts to move down
 

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If a class is explicitly created with the intent of creating a 32 team class with the 32 biggest plus schools that opt up (cretin and Totino grace)...I’d argue that 24th coon rapids should be in that class. Just like all the other 32 biggest schools
I'm guessing they picked 32 for tournament reasons? It sounds good on paper but if there aren't 32 "true" competitive 6A teams then they need to adjust that.
 

Some guy

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I'm guessing they picked 32 for tournament reasons? It sounds good on paper but if there aren't 32 "true" competitive 6A teams then they need to adjust that.
If they truly want everyone in a class to be “competitive” you’d need about 70 classes in the state of Minnesota.

There are going to be winners and losers wherever you draw the lines. So when you decide to draw the lines based on a poverty adjusted enrollment number you shouldn’t then deviate from that.

it is unfair to the 6a teams that don’t get to opt down and instead get rolled

it is unfair to 5a teams that were already struggling without playing a 6a team on the schedule


last year 5a park center lost two games to 6a teams by a combined score of 63-0
park center is 6-31in their last 37 games and is a high poverty 5a enrollment school

why is it fair to park Center to make them play two 6a schools. Coon rapids and Hopkins deemed too bad to compete with 6a but then park center who struggles to compete in 5a has to get rolled by a couple of 6a schools? Seems like the state high school league should be more consistent to me
 

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If they truly want everyone in a class to be “competitive” you’d need about 70 classes in the state of Minnesota.

There are going to be winners and losers wherever you draw the lines. So when you decide to draw the lines based on a poverty adjusted enrollment number you shouldn’t then deviate from that.

it is unfair to the 6a teams that don’t get to opt down and instead get rolled

it is unfair to 5a teams that were already struggling without playing a 6a team on the schedule


last year 5a park center lost two games to 6a teams by a combined score of 63-0
park center is 6-31in their last 37 games and is a high poverty 5a enrollment school

why is it fair to park Center to make them play two 6a schools. Coon rapids and Hopkins deemed too bad to compete with 6a but then park center who struggles to compete in 5a has to get rolled by a couple of 6a schools? Seems like the state high school league should be more consistent to me
I get it. Trust me, I have plenty of experience playing and coaching at schools that always have had the short straw in class assignment.
 

Some guy

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I get it. Trust me, I have plenty of experience playing and coaching at schools that always have had the short straw in class assignment.
I actually think there is a pretty strong contingent of ADs in the metro pretty pissed about the coon rapids deal. Hopefully MSHSL has learned something from it
 

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I actually think there is a pretty strong contingent of ADs in the metro pretty pissed about the coon rapids deal. Hopefully MSHSL has learned something from it
Everytime you bring up Coon Rapids you fail to mention that in 2017 and 2018 they got crushed in their first game of the section playoffs in 5A, once by Chisago Lakes and once by the St. Francis team you're so worried about. If it was up to me 5A and 6A would be combined as there is still plenty of overlap among the top 3rd of 5A and bottom 3rd of 6A. You can't avoid blowouts in high school football.
 

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If they truly want everyone in a class to be “competitive” you’d need about 70 classes in the state of Minnesota.

There are going to be winners and losers wherever you draw the lines. So when you decide to draw the lines based on a poverty adjusted enrollment number you shouldn’t then deviate from that.

it is unfair to the 6a teams that don’t get to opt down and instead get rolled

it is unfair to 5a teams that were already struggling without playing a 6a team on the schedule


last year 5a park center lost two games to 6a teams by a combined score of 63-0
park center is 6-31in their last 37 games and is a high poverty 5a enrollment school

why is it fair to park Center to make them play two 6a schools. Coon rapids and Hopkins deemed too bad to compete with 6a but then park center who struggles to compete in 5a has to get rolled by a couple of 6a schools? Seems like the state high school league should be more consistent to me
They are not crying when they beat most teams in basketball, they had 3 freshman who already have offers go play at a small private school so they would start as freshmen, the small private school basically got rid of the seniors who had been in the program for 3 years for these kids.
 

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You can't avoid blowouts in high school football.
100% agree. Which is why it school size is the thing we are going to use for class determination the MSHSL shouldn’t be in the business of manipulation of classes to the benefit of some and the detriment of others.
 

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They are not crying when they beat most teams in basketball, they had 3 freshman who already have offers go play at a small private school so they would start as freshmen, the small private school basically got rid of the seniors who had been in the program for 3 years for these kids.
We aren’t talking about basketball. If you think football and basketball are comparable I don’t know what to tell you.

you can win a big school state title with 7 kids

you can’t win a 9 man state title with 7 kids
 

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Even if it hasn't worked perfectly, I agree with the decision to have districts instead of conferences in football.

Also agree with the decision of some schools to play up. I believe T-G is 4A by enrollment, but plays up to 6A.
 
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