Healthcare workers balk at receiving Covid vaccine

John Galt

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Apologies in advance - this is from an actual article, not a tweet.

Vaccine rollout hits a snag as health workers balk at shots – Twin Cities

The desperately awaited vaccination drive against the coronavirus in the U.S. is running into resistance from an unlikely quarter: Surprising numbers of health care workers who have seen firsthand the death and misery inflicted by COVID-19 are refusing shots.

It is happening in nursing homes and, to a lesser degree, in hospitals, with employees expressing what experts say are unfounded fears of side effects from vaccines that were developed at record speed. More than three weeks into the campaign, some places are seeing as much as 80% of the staff holding back.

“I don’t think anyone wants to be a guinea pig,” said Dr. Stephen Noble, a 42-year-old cardiothoracic surgeon in Portland, Oregon, who is postponing getting vaccinated. “At the end of the day, as a man of science, I just want to see what the data show. And give me the full data.”

Alarmed by the phenomenon, some administrators have dangled everything from free breakfasts at Waffle House to a raffle for a car to get employees to roll up their sleeves. Some states have threatened to let other people cut ahead of health care workers in the line for shots.

“It’s far too low. It’s alarmingly low,” said Neil Pruitt, CEO of PruittHealth, which runs about 100 long-term care homes in the South, where fewer than 3 in 10 workers offered the vaccine so far have accepted it.

Many medical facilities from Florida to Washington state have boasted of near-universal acceptance of the shots, and workers have proudly plastered pictures of themselves on social media receiving the vaccine. Elsewhere, though, the drive has stumbled.

While the federal government has released no data on how many people offered the vaccines have taken them, glimpses of resistance have emerged around the country.

In Illinois, a big divide has opened at state-run veterans homes between residents and staff. The discrepancy was worst at the veterans home in Manteno, where 90% of residents were vaccinated but only 18% of the staff members.

In rural Ashland, Alabama, about 90 of some 200 workers at Clay County Hospital have yet to agree to get vaccinated, even with the place so overrun with COVID-19 patients that oxygen is running low and beds have been added to the intensive care unit, divided by plastic sheeting.

The pushback comes amid the most lethal phase in the outbreak yet, with the death toll at more than 350,000, and it could hinder the government’s effort to vaccinate somewhere between 70% and 85% of the U.S. population to achieve “herd immunity.”

Administrators and public health officials have expressed hope that more health workers will opt to be vaccinated as they see their colleagues take the shots without problems.

Oregon doctor Noble said he will wait until April or May to get the shots. He said it is vital for public health authorities not to overstate what they know about the vaccines. That is particularly important, he said, for Black people like him who are distrustful of government medical guidance because of past failures and abuses, such as the infamous Tuskegee experiment.
 

MplsGopher

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“At the end of the day, as a man of science, I just want to see what the data show. And give me the full data."

What about the stage 3 trials, with 30k volunteers?
 

WhoFellDownTheGopherHole?

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More proof that Trump sowing distrust in our public has caused irrefutable harm. If he hadn't lied and overpromised the scheduling as he tried to coerce the timeline, people wouldn't be so suspicious.

One more gigantic failure for Trump and America.
 

John Galt

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It's a simple matter of statistics for most. My chance of dying from Covid is less than 0.1%. Is the vaccine safe? Probably. But there have been no long-term single dose and escalating dose studies where histopathologists have evaluated liver, kidney, brain, heart and other organs for long-term toxicity damage over the course of years. What's the chance that something shows up? No one knows - but it's probably greater than 0.1%.
 

Spoofin

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More proof that Trump sowing distrust in our public has caused irrefutable harm. If he hadn't lied and overpromised the scheduling as he tried to coerce the timeline, people wouldn't be so suspicious.

One more gigantic failure for Trump and America.
You honestly blame Trump for healthworkers not wanting to get the vaccine? Your thought is the very people who understand the development, use, and need for medicine/vaccines the best turned to Trump to guide them in this case? My goodness.
 

John Galt

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You honestly blame Trump for healthworkers not wanting to get the vaccine? Your thought is the very people who understand the development, use, and need for medicine/vaccines the best turned to Trump to guide them in this case? My goodness.
All the while, Trump has actually tried to claim credit for how fast the vaccine was developed and approved.
 

GophersInIowa

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It's a simple matter of statistics for most. My chance of dying from Covid is less than 0.1%. Is the vaccine safe? Probably. But there have been no long-term single dose and escalating dose studies where histopathologists have evaluated liver, kidney, brain, heart and other organs for long-term toxicity damage over the course of years. What's the chance that something shows up? No one knows - but it's probably greater than 0.1%.
Serious adverse events in vaccines is much lower than 0.1%. You’re comparing two different things: death rate of Covid to chance of side effects of the vaccine. Your chance of being hospitalized or dying is almost certainly going to be much higher with Covid.
 

John Galt

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Serious adverse events in vaccines is much lower than 0.1%. You’re comparing two different things: death rate of Covid to chance of side effects of the vaccine. Your chance of being hospitalized or dying is almost certainly going to be much higher with Covid.
This isn’t the flu vaccine. There has never before been a vaccine approved using mRNA technology. No one knows what could happen long term, because there is no data.
 

GophersInIowa

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This isn’t the flu vaccine. There has never before been a vaccine approved using mRNA technology. No one knows what could happen long term, because there is no data.
I didn’t specifically say the flu vaccine. There is data because there have been several previous trials involving mRNA.

This article gives a good summary about the history.
 

Spoofin

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I'll get the vaccine when my time comes (I'm thinking maybe by the end of 2021). I'm not really concerned about it and I figure I will have to do it since I travel for my job. I still find it a bit concearning when a notable number of health professionsals that know and understand this stuff refuse to take it. This isn't the first story indicating that to be the case.
 

John Galt

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I didn’t specifically say the flu vaccine. There is data because there have been several previous trials involving mRNA.

This article gives a good summary about the history.
mRNA is the platform. Just because there have been studies using other viruses doesn’t tell me definitely what will happen long term if Covid is used as the virus.

Take monoclonal antibodies as an example. They have been proven to be far more effective than small molecule therapeutics for complex neurological and oncology diseases. Some, like Humira, generate over $10 billion per year in sales because they are so effective and have limited side effects for most people. Others, like Tysabri, were approved and then afterwards clinicians learned that small subset of patients ended up getting PML, a rare and fatal brain disease.

We simply don’t have data for the Covid vaccine yet.
 

Wally

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Most are required to get the flu vaccine.

Wonder if they will give up their jobs for it.
 

MplsGopher

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I'll get the vaccine when my time comes (I'm thinking maybe by the end of 2021). I'm not really concerned about it and I figure I will have to do it since I travel for my job. I still find it a bit concearning when a notable number of health professionsals that know and understand this stuff refuse to take it. This isn't the first story indicating that to be the case.
It'll be available to you well before the end of 21. Likely by late this spring. If you don't get it then, you're making the choice to turn it down. And you won't have a "covid passport", for whatever that will matter for attending events for the rest of the year and beyond.
 

MplsGopher

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mRNA is the platform. Just because there have been studies using other viruses doesn’t tell me definitely what will happen long term if Covid is used as the virus.

Take monoclonal antibodies as an example. They have been proven to be far more effective than small molecule therapeutics for complex neurological and oncology diseases. Some, like Humira, generate over $10 billion per year in sales because they are so effective and have limited side effects for most people. Others, like Tysabri, were approved and then afterwards clinicians learned that small subset of patients ended up getting PML, a rare and fatal brain disease.

We simply don’t have data for the Covid vaccine yet.
We don't have any data for what happens if a human is around wifi signals for 30+ years.

I could give you some scientific reasoning about why it should be just fine. But the fact is, wifi has only been around since the late 90's.

I'm guessing you're not concerned about wifi and will continue to use it. Am I wrong?
 

Wally

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I still find it a bit concearning when a notable number of health professionsals that know and understand this stuff refuse to take it.
Just because they work in healthcare doesn't mean they know and understand shit.

That said I am not chomping at the bit to get it either. But demographically speaking I will be in one of the last cohorts and when the time comes I will take it. Will I want the traditional vaccine or the RNA vaccine, thats the real question.
 

Spoofin

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Just because they work in healthcare doesn't mean they know and understand shit.

That said I am not chomping at the bit to get it either. But demographically speaking I will be in one of the last cohorts and when the time comes I will take it. Will I want the traditional vaccine or the RNA vaccine, thats the real question.
Well they know more about it than me. Anyway, as I said, I will get it when my time comes too.
 

atsgopher

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Well they know more about it than me. Anyway, as I said, I will get it when my time comes too.
Article uses a ridicolously loose definition of “healthcare workers.” People that work in nursing homes do not know more about vaccines than you.
 

WhoFellDownTheGopherHole?

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If I was able to pick i would want the Moderna version and i definitely don't want to be anywhere near the AstraZeneca offering.
 

Bruno22

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I'll get the vaccine when my time comes (I'm thinking maybe by the end of 2021). I'm not really concerned about it and I figure I will have to do it since I travel for my job. I still find it a bit concearning when a notable number of health professionsals that know and understand this stuff refuse to take it. This isn't the first story indicating that to be the case.
Very loose interpretation of 'professionals'. They quote one MD in the attached article. I know of zero physicians who are hesitant/decline the vaccine. I do know 1-2 RNs and MA (medical assistants in the clinic or those who take vitals and the like in the hospital). I do not know what these people's reasons are. It is embarrassing. Would not call them healthcare professionals. A better term is staff.

You take the risk of getting covid everyday (particularly working in the hospital or clinic, but certainly in all walks of life such).

As someone who has gotten both doses, there were no side affects aside from a sore arm after the first dose for 16 hours. There were no systemic signs or symptoms of illness after the second one or that sore of a shoulder (although I did take 400mg of ibuprofen prior to the second shot). From other MDs who received at myself the same time and I have directly talked to, only 2/9 had any sort of 'headache', 'fever', 'flu symptoms', 'felt more tired' for 24 hours after the shot. Purely subjective and anecdotal. Not a study. Confounding variable in that they are all surgeons who not uncommonly get headaches and fatigue. No one had any issue day 2 after the shot was delivered.

There are zero good reasons not to get the vaccine. Healthcare professionals who are MDs or DOs do 'know shit'. Of course there are the minority who do not read and stay up to date. Lord help you if you are an unlucky person who has a doctor such as this.

If you do not believe people are weary due to trump, then you are dead wrong. Plenty of people read things w zero evidence w the dear leader's twitter as their only source. Do not listen to people spreading disinformation on this board. We all know who the repeat offenders are. There is at least one glaring person on this thread which is F-ing pathetic.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

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Very loose interpretation of 'professionals'. They quote one MD in the attached article. I know of zero physicians who are hesitant/decline the vaccine. I do know 1-2 RNs and MA (medical assistants in the clinic or those who take vitals and the like in the hospital). I do not know what these people's reasons are. It is embarrassing. Would not call them healthcare professionals. A better term is staff.

You take the risk of getting covid everyday (particularly working in the hospital or clinic, but certainly in all walks of life such).

As someone who has gotten both doses, there were no side affects aside from a sore arm after the first dose for 16 hours. There were no systemic signs or symptoms of illness after the second one or that sore of a shoulder (although I did take 400mg of ibuprofen prior to the second shot). From other MDs who received at myself the same time and I have directly talked to, only 2/9 had any sort of 'headache', 'fever', 'flu symptoms', 'felt more tired' for 24 hours after the shot. Purely subjective and anecdotal. Not a study. Confounding variable in that they are all surgeons who not uncommonly get headaches and fatigue. No one had any issue day 2 after the shot was delivered.

There are zero good reasons not to get the vaccine. Healthcare professionals who are MDs or DOs do 'know shit'. Of course there are the minority who do not read and stay up to date. Lord help you if you are an unlucky person who has a doctor such as this.

If you do not believe people are weary due to trump, then you are dead wrong. Plenty of people read things w zero evidence w the dear leader's twitter as their only source. Do not listen to people spreading disinformation on this board. We all know who the repeat offenders are. There is at least one glaring person on this thread which is F-ing pathetic.
Good post. I know around 15 people who have received the vaccine, including my brother. All of their experiences were similar to yours. No one had any issues with it.
 

GoodasGold

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It’s always embarrassing to realize we have people in the health care profession who actually believe in voodoo science.
 

WhoFellDownTheGopherHole?

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Why?
Based on what criteria?
I haven't seen this discussed much.
Moderna and Pfizer have close to the same efficacy at 94/95%, while AstraZeneca is something like 60-90%, variable. Because I'm not worried about (m)RNA, out goes AstraZeneca.

Between Moderna and Pfizer, there are only two differences that matter to me:

1. Moderna is something like 30% more likely to prevent an illness from being severe in the people for whom it otherwise fails.

2. Moderna can be kept over 50° warmer than Pfizer's need to be super cooled at -75C. This means less chance of negligence or mishandling fucking up the goods before they ever make it into my arm.
 

MplsGopher

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Astra's don't even need cooling, I think?

And they found - by accident - that giving a half-dose on the first shot bumped up its efficacy into the 90%'s? Something like that.
 

WhoFellDownTheGopherHole?

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Astra's don't even need cooling, I think?

And they found - by accident - that giving a half-dose on the first shot bumped up its efficacy into the 90%'s? Something like that.
Personal preference, again, which i doubt most will really have any say in when it comes to the opportunity.
 

MplsGopher

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Personal preference, again, which i doubt most will really have any say in when it comes to the opportunity.
Good point.

I'll be taking whichever is the first one offered to me. None of the approved ones (or ones approved in the future), are likely to give me any near term or long term health problems, I believe.

But I won't be modifying my behavior after I get it, until cases are way down everywhere and things are mostly opening back up.
 

Bruno22

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Good point.

I'll be taking whichever is the first one offered to me. None of the approved ones (or ones approved in the future), are likely to give me any near term or long term health problems, I believe.

But I won't be modifying my behavior after I get it, until cases are way down everywhere and things are mostly opening back up.
An excellent summary as to do as you stated in your last sentence

 

Nax5

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My wife works in pharmacy. Getting her first shot today. Can't wait til I can get mine.
 

Pompous Elitist

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This isn’t the flu vaccine. There has never before been a vaccine approved using mRNA technology. No one knows what could happen long term, because there is no data.
Are you worried about 5G? 😎

The ingredients of the vaccine are published. There are possibilities of rare anaphylaxis or rare autoimmunity with eating peanuts, shellfish, or....vaccine components . There are no plausible molecular biological mechanisms for the mRNA to gain entry to the cell nucleus and integrate itself into host cell DNA. The mRNA will code for a few hours or days of spike protein production before being broken down by host cell enzymes.

Infections of many stripes can set off autoimmunity. I plan to contract many more illnesses in my life because I like to be out and about. Maybe I’ll end up a statistic but I like my odds. What I don’t want to do is expose vulnerable or family to COVID-19. Getting vaxxed is a civic duty, IMO, with minimal risk. I’m far more worried about driving on the interstate...

I understand the hesitation, particularly among those who don’t really understand how the vaccines work, but I’d say 98% of what I read is reverse fearmongering COVID alarmists [eg the myocarditis fiasco) are guilty of.
 

Pompous Elitist

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My wife works in pharmacy. Getting her first shot today. Can't wait til I can get mine.
My colleagues and I have had no systemic side effects. The second shot is statistically more likely to cause some malaise, fatigue, fever in 10-15% for a day or two and those anecdotes will be out there fueling vaccine hesitancy but this is our way out of this mess with less collateral damage. A small price to pay for most of us.
 
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