FOX News: Christianity Today Magazine calls for Trump's removal from office

bga1

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You and I have different understandings of what is a Biblical truth. We've been down this road before and IIRC agreed to disagree. We can each think the other is misguided, but neither of us has the authority to make that call definitively. Only God has that authority. You're free to worship, advocate, and vote as you see fit, and I expect the same liberties afforded to me. It gets divisive when someone considers his flavor of Christianity as "better", like when Blizzard called out the ELCA or I questioned Eagle Brook's motives. That's why I think things like inter-faith coalitions can do a lot to improve society. We can and should debate the nuances of our religions, but then move past the political divisions and focus on our commonality.
By the way Nokimis- I pulled up Eagle Brook's core beliefs and I see the statement as excellent:
If you agree with these core beliefs (maybe they have changed since 2013?) then we are both conservative Christians by the world's perspective.
 

LesBolstad

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I see, so you are saying that a person's entire personal life has to be in lockstep with one's religion for one to support them? This must be a new stand you are taking with Trump.

By the way, as a Christian, I believe in redemption. I see none of the behavior from Trump today that we would both object to regarding his past going back now about 17-18 years. If he were behaving that way in office, let's say having sexual relations with an intern or something like that, I would drop my support of him instantly. Oh and I also would never be able to support his wife who stomped on the women who he raped.... But you did.
Haha. Bad totally boxed! Per usual.

As stated prior, you absolutely cannot call yourself a Christian and vote for any Democrat and their leftist, immoral policies. And that's the bottom line.
 

Bad Gopher

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There are a number of reasons why the Christian faith has fallen out of favor so precipitously, but much of it echoes Jesus' preaching in his day; in other words, the more things change, the more they stay the same. He constantly criticized the Jewish religious order's moral bankruptcy, hypocrisy, and intellectual disonesty, and His church is failing in exactly the same ways.
 

BarnBurner

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Which again has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Changing the subject in the middle of the thread does nothing to address the question at hand, which is evangelical Christian support of someone who's flamboyantly and unrepentantly immoral in both his personal life and his policy initiatives.
Wild Willy says hello, Bad.
 

Blizzard

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There are a number of reasons why the Christian faith has fallen out of favor so precipitously, but much of it echoes Jesus' preaching in his day; in other words, the more things change, the more they stay the same. He constantly criticized the Jewish religious order's moral bankruptcy, hypocrisy, and intellectual disonesty, and His church is failing in exactly the same ways.
If you level that criticism against all denominations it's a fair thing to say.
 

Bad Gopher

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If you level that criticism against all denominations it's a fair thing to say.
For certain. FYI, nobody's as bummed as I am about how poorly the Catholic Church teaches and leads by example.
 

bga1

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There are a number of reasons why the Christian faith has fallen out of favor so precipitously, but much of it echoes Jesus' preaching in his day; in other words, the more things change, the more they stay the same. He constantly criticized the Jewish religious order's moral bankruptcy, hypocrisy, and intellectual disonesty, and His church is failing in exactly the same ways.
Actually there are as many or more committed Christians- born again, as there ever has been. That's a proven statistic. What has gone out of style is weekly attendance by casual non-committed believers.
Many people have realized that what they were being preached was secular humanism. You can go to Starbucks on Sunday and get that.
 

Blizzard

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You didn't ask how they are focusing on the topics, you asked which topics. I answered which topics.

I don't visit every church and make a list if it is or isn't. I've given you the criteria on if they are or aren't, you can check for yourself.

What do you mean "how are they focusing"? That's a gaslight question. It doesn't have any meaning.
You said conservative churches. I'm asking you to qualify your remark.
 

MplsGopher

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There are a number of reasons why the Christian faith has fallen out of favor so precipitously, but much of it echoes Jesus' preaching in his day; in other words, the more things change, the more they stay the same. He constantly criticized the Jewish religious order's moral bankruptcy, hypocrisy, and intellectual disonesty, and His church is failing in exactly the same ways.
Human nature.

Guess his dad made us this way on purpose, for his own entertainment. “Told ya son!”
 

MplsGopher

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.What has gone out of style is weekly attendance by casual non-committed believers.
Cites a fact .... then fabricated a reason for it, that has nothing to do with reality.

Do you even know what the definition of secular is???? It’s NOT atheism. That’s why we have a separate word for atheism ... it’s called atheism.

Secular (as in a secular country) just means the government isn’t based in religion!! Not that it’s people are atheists.
 

GoodasGold

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I am a member of the Church of England. I like it because it is festive and shares many of the Sacraments and ceremony of the Catholic Church...but, of course, with none of the buggery.
 

bga1

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It will always be the one apostolic church, and it's far from irredemable, so of course.
I will take that as a yes. You remain a Catholic.

So summarizing where we have gone in this conversation- you remain an adherent of a church to guide your spirituality, whose leadership has gone through a number of scandals covering up for pedophile priests. On the other hand in a case of breathtaking hypocrisy - you criticize me and any Trump voter for supporting Trump in leading America based not on spiritual issues but on political issues. This is interesting....

By the way, had Trump slapped up a woman the other day you would be exploding, but it was only the pope.....
 

bga1

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Human nature.

Guess his dad made us this way on purpose, for his own entertainment. “Told ya son!”
So God had two choices in the creation of man- create robots with no choice...or create men who made choices. Some would choose to return to love him and others would run to evil.

Which is the better creation? I say that the one with choice is the better one- despite all the heartache.

Oddly, considering the poor and fallen record of mankind, you choose to worship mankind....
 

monk10

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Enforces my response to Mpls.

What are your thoughts on Eagle Brook's expansion model, specifically into Rochester? Looking in from the outside, I have my doubts and concerns. It's one thing to "make disciples of all nations". But this seems like something different, IMO. Did EB see an unfulfilled need, did locals push for the satellite, or is EB looking to expand its brand? I know a few people have left Autumn Ridge to check out EB, the other big evangelical church in Rochester, which suggests they aren't attracting otherwise unaffiliated new members but rather pulling from other churches. So my questions is, why?
My instinct on EB is that they have figured out that there isn't much difference between a liberal and conservative christian in MN. EB is able to market a christian experience for all families. They have specifically seem to be a market for Minnesotans wanting to provide a christian experience for their kids. They seem to be striking a balance of moderate. Some liberal Christians wish they were a bit more of "X" and some conservative Christians wish they were more of "Y", but both seem satisfied enough and stay. It seems like you can't be in a group of 5 people where one of them doesn't attend EB.
 

GoodasGold

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I will take that as a yes. You remain a Catholic.

So summarizing where we have gone in this conversation- you remain an adherent of a church to guide your spirituality, whose leadership has gone through a number of scandals covering up for pedophile priests. On the other hand in a case of breathtaking hypocrisy - you criticize me and any Trump voter for supporting Trump in leading America based not on spiritual issues but on political issues. This is interesting....

By the way, had Trump slapped up a woman the other day you would be exploding, but it was only the pope.....
A papal slap has always been an acceptable preference of the catholic clergy in toto. Often applied by priests to altar boys in the confines of the vestry.
 

Section2

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Which is the better creation? I say that the one with choice is the better one- despite all the heartache.
You're talking to a lefty Beeg. Choice is only acceptable in one circumstance, and you know what it is. They're going to nominate a guy who is angry that there's too many varieties of deodorant.
 

Bad Gopher

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I will take that as a yes. You remain a Catholic.

So summarizing where we have gone in this conversation- you remain an adherent of a church to guide your spirituality, whose leadership has gone through a number of scandals covering up for pedophile priests. On the other hand in a case of breathtaking hypocrisy - you criticize me and any Trump voter for supporting Trump in leading America based not on spiritual issues but on political issues. This is interesting....
Even though you're trying to confuse the issue with your either/or word salad, you unintentionally make a serious point. To answer the good question you unintentionally posed, I do consider the Catholic Church's actions and inactions on systematic sexual abuse to be the very same unspeakable evil as the U.S. government's facilitation of systematic sexual abuse of all those kids they've separated from their parents and caged. The difference between you and me is that you rationalize the latter because 1) it acts on your nationalistic and racist impulses and 2) it's being implemented under the auspices of the political party you worship as you would a deity.
 

GoodasGold

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Pat Robertson is my concept of the perfect christian. Without the wrinkles, of course.
 

bga1

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Even though you're trying to confuse the issue with your either/or word salad, you unintentionally make a serious point. To answer the good question you unintentionally posed, I do consider the Catholic Church's actions and inactions on systematic sexual abuse to be the very same unspeakable evil as the U.S. government's facilitation of systematic sexual abuse of all those kids they've separated from their parents and caged. The difference between you and me is that you rationalize the latter because 1) it acts on your nationalistic and racist impulses and 2) it's being implemented under the auspices of the political party you worship as you would a deity.
The difference between you and me is that you remain a devoted member of a church that has massively covered up for leadership and priests who are pedophiles. I do not and never have been part of such a church.

Your excuse about kids in cages is a lie that neither of us is in any way associated with. The kids get abused when they DON'T get separated but when they do get separated you scream bloody murder. You do this only since Trump is in office while it was happening and completely acceptable to you when Obama was in power.

If you really wanted to support the end of child abuse in holding areas then you would be in favor of a wall so that they don't get in to the US. The abuse of these children doesn't start when they get into the US it starts in their home countries and many of them are brought over just as a slave who is getting the adult into the country.
 

Nokomis

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By the way Nokimis- I pulled up Eagle Brook's core beliefs and I see the statement as excellent:
If you agree with these core beliefs (maybe they have changed since 2013?) then we are both conservative Christians by the world's perspective.
I don't think anyone would argue against those core beliefs, though I probably could. Level 2 has a bit more meat but nothing too substantial. Level 3 aren't beliefs; they're just topics with which the church isn't willing to take a stand. It's like agnosticism within Christianity. Blizzard & Monk confirmed my suspicions on EB - light on substance, heavy on pizzazz.
 

monk10

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I want to be careful since you drew a conclusion from my post. I never got the impression they were light on substance, but more moderate in the delivery. In addition, it sounds like the pizzazz is available due to not having high overhead for each satellite church.
 

Cruze

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Even though you're trying to confuse the issue with your either/or word salad, you unintentionally make a serious point. To answer the good question you unintentionally posed, I do consider the Catholic Church's actions and inactions on systematic sexual abuse to be the very same unspeakable evil as the U.S. government's facilitation of systematic sexual abuse of all those kids they've separated from their parents and caged. The difference between you and me is that you rationalize the latter because 1) it acts on your nationalistic and racist impulses and 2) it's being implemented under the auspices of the political party you worship as you would a deity.
You are absolutely correct, Bad. I grew up a Catholic in a very religious family whose guiding light was my aunt who gave up all of her worldly possessions and became a nun who spent the rest of her life serving God. Almost everything I know about religion and the Bible I learned from her. Catholics were far ahead of Evangelical Christians in their firm and unbending opposition to abortion. I agree with the Catholic position on this issue. However, I am now the only member of my family who has left the Catholic Church because of its' outrageous and unforgivable failure to even try to prevent numerous priests all over the world from sexually abusing children they were supposed to be taking care of.

How am I ever going to be able to support a president who has systematically ignored the sexual abuse and maltreatment of children along the Mexican border whom he separated from their families? Of course, there are many other issues where I am opposed to Trump but this is No. 1 for me. He could preside over the greatest economy in the history of the U.S. for the rest of his presidency and I could never support him because of this one issue alone.
 
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Nokomis

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I will take that as a yes. You remain a Catholic.

So summarizing where we have gone in this conversation- you remain an adherent of a church to guide your spirituality, whose leadership has gone through a number of scandals covering up for pedophile priests. On the other hand in a case of breathtaking hypocrisy - you criticize me and any Trump voter for supporting Trump in leading America based not on spiritual issues but on political issues. This is interesting....

By the way, had Trump slapped up a woman the other day you would be exploding, but it was only the pope.....
Come on, man... This just shows how desperate you are to discredit someone outside your sphere. The Pope had a very human response to someone physically yanking him backwards. It was literally a slap on the wrist. But somehow this warrants posting in a thread about Trump's redemptive qualities.
 
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