Fleck's Ego

MennoSota

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I wonder how many of last year's senior's pined for Kill/Claey's...

This season is awful. Can't sugarcoat it. Kids gotta learn from failure.
 

btowngopher

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There are plenty of very good college players who never play in the NFL and plenty of good programs that put a limited number of players into the NFL.
Ok well we don’t have a good way to measure all these very good players that were not drafted across the rest of the conference. Typically if you’re a very good player in this conference you get drafted. And the best teams in this conference get a lot of players drafted.
 

btowngopher

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First off, it's Fleck's 4th year here, yes the players I'm talking about were underclassmen when Fleck arrived. That's just match.

Second, these types of arguments can really get us down a black hole, where the Claeys/Kill recruits that panned out were because of Fleck's coaching and the ones that didn't were because they were crappy recruits.

So let me make this clear, Fleck did a great job of building these folks. He really did. I'm not taking anything away from him. I don't think TJ would have been as good as he was without Fleck. I was simply laughing at the assertion that the Kill/Claeys staffs left zero offensive talent. That's simply false. I lived through the Mase to Brew years and the Brew to Kill years to recognize an absolute dearth of talent. This was not the case.

(1) TJ - He was an obvious talent to anyone that watched him as a FR. He stood out. People were universally pumped up about him.

(2) Rodney Smith - We agree.

(3) Shannon was healthy through the 2016 season. I assume we aren't blaming Fleck for his lack of health. Right, right. . the good stuff from these guys goes to Fleck, the bad to Claeys/Kill. Gotcha.

(4) The rest - - yeah, they were underclassmen. However, they aren't exactly losing their jobs to Fleck recruits. They were all coached up by Fleck and Co., but these Kill/Claeys recruits haven't lost their jobs.
Shannon and Rodney were average backs in this conference. Why do people over rate them so much? Also when the qb situation is a disaster it impacts the surrounding talent a lot.
 

Some guy

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I don’t know what everyone is fighting about.
I think in January of 2023 it’ll be really clear whether 2019 was a fluke or the start of something
 

Bob_Loblaw

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Shannon and Rodney were average backs in this conference. Why do people over rate them so much? Also when the qb situation is a disaster it impacts the surrounding talent a lot.
Rodney is our second leading rusher of all time despite playing three seasons with well, see your second point.

Shannon was a really strong RB. A bit injury prone.

All of that said, it was talent. They were at a MINIMUM RB depth that PJ could count on.
 

PMWinSTP

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I don’t know what everyone is fighting about.
I think in January of 2023 it’ll be really clear whether 2019 was a fluke or the start of something
Made me laugh...
 

PMWinSTP

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Do you disagree?

will we really know anything before then?
Would anyone really consider making a move before then?
Next year will it be 2024? We are seven years into a BBall coach using similar logic.
 

Some guy

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Next year will it be 2024? We are seven years into a BBall coach using similar logic.
I have thought the writing was in the wall for about 3 seasons with the basketball program

under .500 in the conference in years 5, 6, and 7
I would’ve let him go when our “up year” in 18-19 resulted in a 9-11 record.






what does that have to do with football?

do you think Flexk should enter 2021-22 on the hot seat?
 

PMWinSTP

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I have thought the writing was in the wall for about 3 seasons with the basketball program

under .500 in the conference in years 5, 6, and 7
I would’ve let him go when our “up year” in 18-19 resulted in a 9-11 record.






what does that have to do with football?

do you think Flexk should enter 2021-22 on the hot seat?
It has to do with how Gophs fans continually rationalize things getting better "next year" and settle. I personally think depending on how this year ends Flecks seat could get warm, and if Gophs are average in 2021 season it gets hot. Hope not, because I want the Gophs to be a regular 9-10 win program, but if not Fleck then someone else.
 
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Spoofin

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On Fleck - I have dealt with HS coaches who also like to use the "it's 100% on me" routine after a bad loss.

And I am tempted sometimes to ask - "Well, if it's 100% on you, and the team is losing badly every week, what does that say about you as a Coach?"

But, I'm too nice - or too cowardly - to do that.

The thing with Fleck is that he says "it's 100% on me," but then, he goes into "we're young, we're inexperienced, we're missing people" routine - which to some, sounds like excuses.

maybe this year is an anomaly. But, it does raise the ante for next year.
We have been over this all before. When a coach says it is all on him and immediately follows it by providing excuses or singling out a specific player (think Croft or Howden) - he is not actually taking the blame.
 

Spoofin

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2019 was awesome. It buys PJ a pass on this year. At the same time it is only realistic to be concerned by what our D looks like at this point with all Fleck recruits. Maybe we will see huge strides by next year. This season’s goal should become to get playing time for as many kids as you can.
 

Gophers7NatTitlesBadgers0

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11-2 last year. 2 top 10 wins. Finished as the 10th ranked team in the country. Best season in half a century, or more? But by all means, go on.
One could argue that the defensive players that Kill/Claey's brought in played a big part in last year's success. The jury is still out on whether PJ and Rossi can find players of that calibur.
 

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There are winning programs and loosing programs, it is tough to turn a program around and sustain it, unlike basketball, a few guys can turn a team around. Football, is the ultimate team sport, you need numbers and build from your base like Wisconsin, Iowa, and NDSU has achieved. Until you acquire the top talent in the state in addition to other top athletes in the state consistently, we will continue with the merry go round, and what what the biggest stock bust of 1992? Merry Go Round Clothing.
 

PMWinSTP

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There are winning programs and loosing programs, it is tough to turn a program around and sustain it, unlike basketball, a few guys can turn a team around. Football, is the ultimate team sport, you need numbers and build from your base like Wisconsin, Iowa, and NDSU has achieved. Until you acquire the top talent in the state in addition to other top athletes in the state consistently, we will continue with the merry go round, and what what the biggest stock bust of 1992? Merry Go Round Clothing.
I agree can't let the high ranked ones get away, but for football, the instate talent is not very deep, and not always what the recruiting class needs. If you are an OL, it takes a lot to stay home with offers from Wisc.
 

Tommyboy

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I agree can't let the high ranked ones get away, but for football, the instate talent is not very deep, and not always what the recruiting class needs. If you are an OL, it takes a lot to stay home with offers from Wisc.
Singer left his HS for his senior year to play in Arizona, and now as a scholarship to Utah. TG kids is going to ND and STU, kid from Lakeview South is going to Wisconsin, Kids are going to AF, UNI UND, how many kids are at NDSU, two are going in the first round. If all these kids would stay. They won last year with local kids, of course you have to recruit the whole country, but how many players are going to come up here and play in this weather, lets get real.
 

MGGopher

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People need to start understanding what 2019 was and what it wasn't.

- Penn State was amazing and will always be a feather in Fleck's cap. Franklin was so impressed, that he store Ciarrocca away.
- The bowl game was a nice surprise and a great win, too. Especially given what the media and everyone thought was going to happen. Auburn was dejected to be in that game, compared to what they thought they could've accomplished that year, and also assumed they'd just "out speed" us or something.
- The Iowa and especially Wisconsin games were disappointments.
- Every other Big Ten game was against a down or easy opponent.
- Non-conf games could've easily been 0-3.


It was a great season. Hey, I'll take being lucky over being good. But in hindsight, we should've understood why it wasn't going to be a launching pad.
1) Disagree on the Auburn game. Their team and coaches repeatedly stated they were all business and planned to win that game. The "dejected" excuse is thin. Minnesota beat Auburn straight up, sorry.

2) The Iowa loss was disappointing, but mostly because MN got badly outcoached in the first 20 minutes. They dominated the rest of the game, put up about 400 yards of offense, and held Iowa to something like 150 from that point forward.

3) The Wisconsin loss was horrible, but part of it was Wisconsin making big play after big play on offense and opening up a lead that changed Minnesota's gameplan considerably. But no excuses -- Wisconsin came in and executed a great plan...and the scoreboard reflected that.

4) Agree most of the rest of the B1G schedule was against "down" teams, but MN didn't just win those games -- they pretty much dominated in every facet of those games. They weren't squeaking out wins against similarly talented/well-coached teams. They were blowing people out for the most part.

5) Agree the non-con was VERY shaky. Still struggling to understand that, but clearly both offense and defense made adjustments based on those games and improved steadily as the year went along. Does anyone think GSU or SDSU would've been competitive with Minnesota at the end of the year?
 

GFBfan

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2019 was awesome. It buys PJ a pass on this year. At the same time it is only realistic to be concerned by what our D looks like at this point with all Fleck recruits. Maybe we will see huge strides by next year. This season’s goal should become to get playing time for as many kids as you can.
And yet in two blow outs, one each way, we play the same guys the entire game. Kind of goes against the whole notion that we are a developmental program.
 

btowngopher

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Singer left his HS for his senior year to play in Arizona, and now as a scholarship to Utah. TG kids is going to ND and STU, kid from Lakeview South is going to Wisconsin, Kids are going to AF, UNI UND, how many kids are at NDSU, two are going in the first round. If all these kids would stay. They won last year with local kids, of cozurse you have to recruit the whole country, but how many players are going to come up here and play in this weather, lets get real.
Not sure why the staff didn't offer Singer, but not many P5 programs have either. We tried to get the TG kid going to ND, kids going to STU are not good enough to elevate this program 98% of the time. Lakeville South kid we tried to get. Most kids going to AF, UNI, and UND are not going to help this program. We get plenty of kids to play up here from down south. We are getting kids that other coaches want. Getting more Minnesota kids that other coaches don't want is not the answer. You can't just point out the ones that fall through the cracks. There are plenty of other ones that go to ndsu, und, etc. that don't end up in the NFL. You have to identify the right players, you can get them from anywhere.
 

Catechol

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And yet in two blow outs, one each way, we play the same guys the entire game. Kind of goes against the whole notion that we are a developmental program.
Especially when freshmen can play as many games as they want and not burn a redshirt this year. Why not get them some experience as a reward for putting in the practice time during this crazy year, and going through the daily COVID testing and tight restrictions etc.?
 

PMWinSTP

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Not sure why the staff didn't offer Singer, but not many P5 programs have either. We tried to get the TG kid going to ND, kids going to STU are not good enough to elevate this program 98% of the time. Lakeville South kid we tried to get. Most kids going to AF, UNI, and UND are not going to help this program. We get plenty of kids to play up here from down south. We are getting kids that other coaches want. Getting more Minnesota kids that other coaches don't want is not the answer. You can't just point out the ones that fall through the cracks. There are plenty of other ones that go to ndsu, und, etc. that don't end up in the NFL. You have to identify the right players, you can get them from anywhere.
Thanks. Well laid out response. Gophs do need to figure out how to keep the 1-3 top national MN recruits every year, but beyond that it's based on need and whether the staff thinks lower star MN players are rough diamonds.
 

Some guy

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And yet in two blow outs, one each way, we play the same guys the entire game. Kind of goes against the whole notion that we are a developmental program.
For sure, the program doesn’t develop people

Do you want to give it another 2 years or should be just cut bait?
 

Some guy

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Especially when freshmen can play as many games as they want and not burn a redshirt this year. Why not get them some experience as a reward for putting in the practice time during this crazy year, and going through the daily COVID testing and tight restrictions etc.?
Other than Bateman, Morgan, and Ibrahim I want starters playing all the snaps and getting experience.

I get it on those three but do you want to get the backups experience while the starters (particularly on defense) need experience and improvement?
 

Spoofin

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And yet in two blow outs, one each way, we play the same guys the entire game. Kind of goes against the whole notion that we are a developmental program.
Yes - watching Morgan run on that final drive made me yell at the TV. Not only a missed opportunity to develop, a created opportunity to make a bad situation worse. Made no sense at all to me.
 

Spoofin

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Other than Bateman, Morgan, and Ibrahim I want starters playing all the snaps and getting experience.

I get it on those three but do you want to get the backups experience while the starters (particularly on defense) need experience and improvement?
Well, start wtih Bateman, Morgan, and Ibrahim then. Get them off the field.

Your second paragraph has merit, and you could make a good argument for it. IMO, you hit a point in a game like last Friday night's tho where those starters aren't getting much valuable experience anymore and you are missing an opportunity to work your backups in so that we aren't always in this same situation down the road. Of course, that isn't based on anything other than my gut feel.
 

Some guy

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Well, start wtih Bateman, Morgan, and Ibrahim then. Get them off the field.

Your second paragraph has merit, and you could make a good argument for it. IMO, you hit a point in a game like last Friday night's tho where those starters aren't getting much valuable experience anymore and you are missing an opportunity to work your backups in so that we aren't always in this same situation down the road. Of course, that isn't based on anything other than my gut feel.
One could argue that even Morgan should be on the field as he is clearly struggling with the pass reads in the new offense and he needs more experience

The only one I view as indefensible is Ibrahim.

bateman may be wanting to stay in the game (and they all likely do). But ibrahim is the only one playing at a position of high wear and tear.


I’d be mixing guys more but it’s hard to say without knowing any details about players health, practice availability, etc


so hard to know what is happening behind the scenes this year, there is a lot to it. I agree 100% that Ibrahim shouldn’t play when the game is out of reach either direction.
 

Go Gophs

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It has to do with how Gophs fans continually rationalize things getting better "next year" and settle. I personally think depending on how this year ends Flecks seat could get warm, and if Gophs are average in 2021 season it gets hot. Hope not, because I want the Gophs to be a regular 9-10 win program, but if not Fleck then someone else.
Hasn't this been proven here that changing coaches like you change your undewear doesn't get you anywhere? Look around at the top programs. Even the solid ones. They have consitency, coaching staffs that have been there for years.

Firing him and going through another rebuild puts you in the same spot you were when you fired Mason, or Wacker, or any of them. Stick with PJ, let him take some lumps and understand that he is a hard worker that will make this happen.
 

Face The Facts

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As long as PJ is bringing in top 40 classes, I say keep him.

Even if he ends up being a horrible coach. Talent matters and if you keep hitting top 40 classes, you'll eventually have some talent to win with the right assistants.
 

Tommyboy

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As long as PJ is bringing in top 40 classes, I say keep him.

Even if he ends up being a horrible coach. Talent matters and if you keep hitting top 40 classes, you'll eventually have some talent to win with the right assistants.
Now we are sounding desperate
 
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