Evidence of Structural Racism

Costa Rican Gopher

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This is something that should be looked at. Also decriminalization of pot. Virginia just did so and it is now a civil penalty for possession up to a certain amount. The dealers will still go to jail.
I'm all for it, but let's be clear...hardly any Black people are going to jail for simple possession of pot today. You think cops are arresting Blacks for having a joint in their pocket? No, the cops aren't wasting their time with that. The marijuana crimes they're be arrested for today, they'd still be arrested for after decriminalization. Hopefully. i.e. You still can't smoke & drive. That's a DUI. You still can't smoke at the playground while kids are playing. You can't light up on the city bus. etc. The reason poor Blacks get arrested for pot, is because they're either dummies about how & when they use it, or they simply don;t care about everyone else. i.e. Smoking weed in inappropriate places, in poor Black culture is a status symbol.
 

Costa Rican Gopher

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There's a point at which $$ overcomes almost anything. That is not really relevant here though. It's not about Joe Blow vs. Cam Newton.
Finally!!! As my African American Studies Professor used to say "Your problem isn't that your skin is Black, it's that you don't have any Green!". The issue we need to address is economics, not race.
 

howeda7

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Finally!!! As my African American Studies Professor used to say "Your problem isn't that your skin is Black, it's that you don't have any Green!". The issue we need to address is economics, not race.
Economic disparities and racism can co-exist. It's not either/or. And even then, you have stories like Torii Hunter being forced at gunpoint to prove he owned his own house when he dared to call the cops.
 

howeda7

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I'm all for it, but let's be clear...hardly any Black people are going to jail for simple possession of pot today. You think cops are arresting Blacks for having a joint in their pocket? No, the cops aren't wasting their time with that. The marijuana crimes they're be arrested for today, they'd still be arrested for after decriminalization. Hopefully. i.e. You still can't smoke & drive. That's a DUI. You still can't smoke at the playground while kids are playing. You can't light up on the city bus. etc. The reason poor Blacks get arrested for pot, is because they're either dummies about how & when they use it, or they simply don;t care about everyone else. i.e. Smoking weed in inappropriate places, in poor Black culture is a status symbol.
It still does happen, especially during traffic stops etc. They don't have to be actively smoking. It's somewhere in the car or on their person. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but it's absolutely used as an excuse to take them in at times.
 

Costa Rican Gopher

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What? You don't think it's an issue? We have a fast food chain on every block, but you have to go to a supermarket to find anything the resembles nutritious food. And even then, it's expensive. It's much cheaper and easier to eat unhealthily. How do we make nutritious food cheaper and more accessible? Grocery delivery services might be a good option.
Disagree on the cheaper part. Most of Latin America & Asia exist on much more limited budgets than a US Black family have to work with & eat far healthier. It's not easier though, I'll grant you that. It takes time & involves cooking.

Neccesesity is the Mother of invention. In Latin America, 5-6 poor families will split a Costco membership. One guy on the block might have a car & 5 ladies will pile in once a month to head for Costco. (the same way Black men with cars drove up and down the streets of Birmingham givuing Black people rides to & from work, during the bus strikes). They'll buy 100lb bags of rice, bulk beans, whole chickens, 24 packs of cheap pork cuts like 'country style ribs', or pork chops, bulk vegetables, etc. They bring them home & split them up between the families. That brings prices way down. They'll soak those beans overnight for the following days meals, they de-skin the chickens & break them down into a week's worth of meals, then use the rest for stock. Nothing goes to waste. When they're getting low, the throw it all into a pot with the stock & water and make a 'San Cocho' stew. A Normal meal is chicken, rice, beans, simple salad, with water & juice. Per meal it's cheaper than Wendy's. Now, those people are taught how to do that. They have the skills. Most Americans couldn't break down a whole chicken, or know what to do with a 100lb sack of pinto beans. It can be done, but it requires some skills and most of all, necessity. Poor Blacks don't need to band together. They have just enough to get by on their own, but never ahead. It's easier to run the EBT card at Popeye's.
 

Costa Rican Gopher

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Economic disparities and racism can co-exist. It's not either/or. And even then, you have stories like Torii Hunter being forced at gunpoint to prove he owned his own house when he dared to call the cops.
I don't know the details of that story, but I'm not saying some instances of racism don't exist. I'm saying it's so infrequent, that it doesn't require reform. It's almost always classism.
 

Costa Rican Gopher

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Economic disparities and racism can co-exist. It's not either/or. And even then, you have stories like Torii Hunter being forced at gunpoint to prove he owned his own house when he dared to call the cops.
I don't know the details of that story, but I'm not saying some instances of racism don't exist. I'm saying it's so infrequent, that it doesn't require reform. It's almost always classism.
 

saintpaulguy

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So racial segregation in public education is for the best?

Or maybe it's not racial at all? Maybe it's class? I'll bet you a finger, what we're really talking about are middle & upper middle class homes with two parents, living above the poverty line who're in those accelerated programs, while the others are single parent homes, living below the poverty line. That's class, not race. It just looks like race because so many Black students are living in single parent homes, below the poverty line.
i am not saying segregation is best. I’m saying eliminating IB classes will accomplish integration at cost to opportunity. I can tell you first hand that the system is being totally gamed right now. You know how it works, but others may not. The slots held open for diverse students are being taken by the kids whose parents have the time and energy to apply and the flexibility to change routines when a slot opens. This takes a functioning student out of a school in an area with lower scores. The good school gets better, the poor school gets poorer. It is about retaining the small percentage that can leave the district.

As to whether the advanced class offerings are unfair, I’d bet on a per dollar basis those kids are cheaper to educate than average.
 

bga1

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What you just said is incredibly racist and exactly the type of stuff this thread is about. Not that you're racist, but you implicitly assume inner city people want junk food. You're an economist, so think like one. It's a lot cheaper to set up a fast food place on the corner than a grocer. So then the option is cheap accessible junk food or travelling for expensive healthy food. You're an economist, so I assume you understand that opportunity costs include more than just price. What if traveling to the supermarket takes away from time with their kids at home? It's not hard to start to connect the dots here and see how these things create institutional and societal barriers.
Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. If S2 says that blacks eat more fast food than their share, rather than cry Racist!, ask yourself first- is it true? The fact is- it is true. Is it racist to say what is factual? Of course not. Read this:https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/who-eats-fast-food-according-cdc

Fast food is not cheaper than feeding your family food that is good for them. Fast food is just easier. Fast food is consumed heavily not because it is forced economically, rather it is a product of laziness and families that are broken and don't eat together.

You are wrong to say what S2 said is racist and you are wrong to say that it is more expensive to feed your family with good food. It's just not.

Let me help you further:

Here is a cost analysis:https://www.rockethq.com/learn/personal-finances/how-much-should-you-spend-on-groceries-v2
  • Thrifty: This plan, the lowest-cost plan, “shows how a nutritious diet may be achieved with limited resources,” according to the USDA. It’s used as the basis for maximum Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program On this plan, an individual between the ages of 19 – 50 will spend $166 – $187 per month on groceries. A family of four (the USDA defines this as two adults – one male and one female – and two children) will spend $568 – $651 per month.
  • Low-Cost: This plan represents food costs for the second-lowest quartile of food spending, according to the USDA. On this plan, an individual will spend $210 – $242 per month, while a family of four will spend $726 – $855.
  • Moderate-Cost: This plan represents the second from the top quartile of food spending. On this plan, an individual will spend $257 – $303 per month, while a family of four will spend $894 – $1,068 per month.
So let's say instead you fed your family of 4 three times a day Mcdonalds typical $6 meals:
4 x $6 x 3 meals per day= $72 per day x 30 days= $2160. So yeah- it is way more expensive to go eat McDonalds meals.
 

BarnBurner

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Finding or getting to. I would assume that getting to would be a challenge for many. Elders would fall into that category.
Many had no problem getting to Target to loot. Many had no problem getting to AutoZone to burn er down.

More excuses.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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Finding or getting to. I would assume that getting to would be a challenge for many. Elders would fall into that category.
Your point is that old people having a difficult time getting around contributes to or is a product of structural racism?

Even if this were true (which I'd honestly love to hear that argument), isn't the fact that the system/structure is moving toward direct deposit and online banking a shining example of how the structure isn't racist? Wouldn't a racist structure make access more difficult?
 

Nokomis

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Disagree on the cheaper part. Most of Latin America & Asia exist on much more limited budgets than a US Black family have to work with & eat far healthier. It's not easier though, I'll grant you that. It takes time & involves cooking.

Neccesesity is the Mother of invention. In Latin America, 5-6 poor families will split a Costco membership. One guy on the block might have a car & 5 ladies will pile in once a month to head for Costco. (the same way Black men with cars drove up and down the streets of Birmingham givuing Black people rides to & from work, during the bus strikes). They'll buy 100lb bags of rice, bulk beans, whole chickens, 24 packs of cheap pork cuts like 'country style ribs', or pork chops, bulk vegetables, etc. They bring them home & split them up between the families. That brings prices way down. They'll soak those beans overnight for the following days meals, they de-skin the chickens & break them down into a week's worth of meals, then use the rest for stock. Nothing goes to waste. When they're getting low, the throw it all into a pot with the stock & water and make a 'San Cocho' stew. A Normal meal is chicken, rice, beans, simple salad, with water & juice. Per meal it's cheaper than Wendy's. Now, those people are taught how to do that. They have the skills. Most Americans couldn't break down a whole chicken, or know what to do with a 100lb sack of pinto beans. It can be done, but it requires some skills and most of all, necessity. Poor Blacks don't need to band together. They have just enough to get by on their own, but never ahead. It's easier to run the EBT card at Popeye's.
The same is of course true for African countries. Trevor Noah talks about exactly this in his book growing up in South Africa. He also talks about when a McDonald's opened up nearby. He and his buddies would scrape together enough money for bus fare and a burger. But it was really more for the novelty American food.

Is there a McDonald's on every corner is those countries? Do both parents work outside the home or are single parents? Where would you even find a 100lb bag of rice in Powderhorn? And how do you get it on the bus? Point being, we have some uniquely American problems here. We certainly have a diet problem in general. And those problems are magnified in some areas.
 

Nokomis

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Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. If S2 says that blacks eat more fast food than their share, rather than cry Racist!, ask yourself first- is it true? The fact is- it is true. Is it racist to say what is factual? Of course not. Read this:https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/who-eats-fast-food-according-cdc

Fast food is not cheaper than feeding your family food that is good for them. Fast food is just easier. Fast food is consumed heavily not because it is forced economically, rather it is a product of laziness and families that are broken and don't eat together.

You are wrong to say what S2 said is racist and you are wrong to say that it is more expensive to feed your family with good food. It's just not.

Let me help you further:

Here is a cost analysis:https://www.rockethq.com/learn/personal-finances/how-much-should-you-spend-on-groceries-v2
  • Thrifty: This plan, the lowest-cost plan, “shows how a nutritious diet may be achieved with limited resources,” according to the USDA. It’s used as the basis for maximum Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program On this plan, an individual between the ages of 19 – 50 will spend $166 – $187 per month on groceries. A family of four (the USDA defines this as two adults – one male and one female – and two children) will spend $568 – $651 per month.
  • Low-Cost: This plan represents food costs for the second-lowest quartile of food spending, according to the USDA. On this plan, an individual will spend $210 – $242 per month, while a family of four will spend $726 – $855.
  • Moderate-Cost: This plan represents the second from the top quartile of food spending. On this plan, an individual will spend $257 – $303 per month, while a family of four will spend $894 – $1,068 per month.
So let's say instead you fed your family of 4 three times a day Mcdonalds typical $6 meals:
4 x $6 x 3 meals per day= $72 per day x 30 days= $2160. So yeah- it is way more expensive to go eat McDonalds meals.
Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. Someone says they're having trouble getting nutritious food, and your response is tell them they're wrong. You tell people how they should live their lives without stopping to listen to their reality. You should really listen to that interview Fleck did a couple weeks ago. He listened to his players and their families for four days after George Floyd's death before issuing a statement or talking to the media. He listened and showed empathy. He didn't say all lives matter, stay in school, don't do drugs, don't get arrested, and don't let you parents get divorced. He listened to their individual realities. You should try doing the same -- and not just when it comes to fast food.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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The same is of course true for African countries. Trevor Noah talks about exactly this in his book growing up in South Africa. He also talks about when a McDonald's opened up nearby. He and his buddies would scrape together enough money for bus fare and a burger. But it was really more for the novelty American food.

Is there a McDonald's on every corner is those countries? Do both parents work outside the home or are single parents? Where would you even find a 100lb bag of rice in Powderhorn? And how do you get it on the bus? Point being, we have some uniquely American problems here. We certainly have a diet problem in general. And those problems are magnified in some areas.
While I agree with almost all of your points, I think the uniquely American problems are also class problems. Poorer neighborhoods (and people) tend to gravitate towards unhealthy foods. This is also an issue of urban/rural. If you live in an urban area, small towns in SW Minnesota aren't going to have nearly the amount of fast food restaurants as University Avenue (or the Galleria). This is absolutely an issue. I'm not sure how to solve it in a free society, but it is an issue.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. Someone says they're having trouble getting nutritious food, and your response is tell them they're wrong. You tell people how they should live their lives without stopping to listen to their reality. You should really listen to that interview Fleck did a couple weeks ago. He listened to his players and their families for four days after George Floyd's death before issuing a statement or talking to the media. He listened and showed empathy. He didn't say all lives matter, stay in school, don't do drugs, don't get arrested, and don't let you parents get divorced. He listened to their individual realities. You should try doing the same -- and not just when it comes to fast food.
I do agree with you, but a lot of change requires personal choice. When I was growing up, my go-to supermarket was either the Cub on Phalen, University, or Sun Ray. There were healthy foods. I agree that it could be somewhat of an educational thing but at the end of the day it's a choice.

As far as what the government can do, I think there would be considerable backlash if they imposed restrictions on EBT (no sugar cereals, no sugar drinks, greater allotment specifically for fresh food, etc.). That backlash would definitely come from the General Mills types but I believe also from the people.
 

BarnBurner

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Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. Someone says they're having trouble getting nutritious food, and your response is tell them they're wrong. You tell people how they should live their lives without stopping to listen to their reality. You should really listen to that interview Fleck did a couple weeks ago. He listened to his players and their families for four days after George Floyd's death before issuing a statement or talking to the media. He listened and showed empathy. He didn't say all lives matter, stay in school, don't do drugs, don't get arrested, and don't let you parents get divorced. He listened to their individual realities. You should try doing the same -- and not just when it comes to fast food.
All well and good.
If you don’t mind, when will others do the same for those that have different experiences? If you are talking about individual realities, certainly EVERYONE has realities, correct?
 

Nokomis

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While I agree with almost all of your points, I think the uniquely American problems are also class problems. Poorer neighborhoods (and people) tend to gravitate towards unhealthy foods. This is also an issue of urban/rural. If you live in an urban area, small towns in SW Minnesota aren't going to have nearly the amount of fast food restaurants as University Avenue (or the Galleria). This is absolutely an issue. I'm not sure how to solve it in a free society, but it is an issue.
I agree and also think it's a rural problem. How many small towns have you been to where the local grocery closed down but there's a McDonald's? I can think of a few.

Class is an interesting concept in America. I've heard it discussed on various forums over the years. The US just doesn't know how to handle class the same as other countries, often compared to the UK where there are clear classes and they've dealt with it. Race & class often get conflated or confused in the US (Costa could talk all day on it). While there's overlap, there are still unique issues for each.
 

Nokomis

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As far as what the government can do, I think there would be considerable backlash if they imposed restrictions on EBT (no sugar cereals, no sugar drinks, greater allotment specifically for fresh food, etc.). That backlash would definitely come from the General Mills types but I believe also from the people.
We live in a mixed economy, and I firmly believe in strong private-public partnerships. As it relates to food, I think the grocery delivery service is a great innovation. We used Coborn's Delivers when our twins were babies, and it was a lifesaver. Maybe the government could help subsidize a grocery delivery service in some of these areas where it's not otherwise economically viable. Just spitballing, but the point is it doesn't have to be all market-based or all government intervention.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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I agree and also think it's a rural problem. How many small towns have you been to where the local grocery closed down but there's a McDonald's? I can think of a few.

Class is an interesting concept in America. I've heard it discussed on various forums over the years. The US just doesn't know how to handle class the same as other countries, often compared to the UK where there are clear classes and they've dealt with it. Race & class often get conflated or confused in the US (Costa could talk all day on it). While there's overlap, there are still unique issues for each.
I really don't mean this in a snarky way, but have you spent time in the UK? In my opinion, the differences between classes in the UK is striking. I will admit that my time was mostly in London and this is all anecdotal, but there were essentially the people who could afford to live in the nice zones in London (think like $4,000 per month in rent) and then the middle class/working class complexes and homes were really modest. Considerably more modest than in the US.

As I said, I realize this is anecdotal, but I just bring it up because you mentioned the UK.

As far as class and race, I agree that they each have their own unique issues, I think my argument is that the overwhelming amount of issues attributed to race are actually issues of class.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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We live in a mixed economy, and I firmly believe in strong private-public partnerships. As it relates to food, I think the grocery delivery service is a great innovation. We used Coborn's Delivers when our twins were babies, and it was a lifesaver. Maybe the government could help subsidize a grocery delivery service in some of these areas where it's not otherwise economically viable. Just spitballing, but the point is it doesn't have to be all market-based or all government intervention.
We found common ground! Thanks to Corona, I'm pretty addicted to grocery delivery now.

I am rarely for increasing government programs, but I think I am fine with aid to help people get their groceries delivered. This does not solve the issue of unhealthy eating.
 

bga1

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Your response is exactly why we cannot have honest discussions. Someone says they're having trouble getting nutritious food, and your response is tell them they're wrong. You tell people how they should live their lives without stopping to listen to their reality. You should really listen to that interview Fleck did a couple weeks ago. He listened to his players and their families for four days after George Floyd's death before issuing a statement or talking to the media. He listened and showed empathy. He didn't say all lives matter, stay in school, don't do drugs, don't get arrested, and don't let you parents get divorced. He listened to their individual realities. You should try doing the same -- and not just when it comes to fast food.
I'm talking to you not them. Do I have to mush it up for you to get more comfortable? If I am talking to a person with the problem I look at what their situation is and I try to help them find a real way to solve it. We would sit down and look at a budget and their mobility and then we would discuss how to resolve it. That's why government solutions don't work. They just dump money on the issue and the money gets misused and then the hand is back out again the next month.

The problems we are having is not with elderly and disabled people. We can help them. The problems we are having is with able bodied people who have been coached into an entitlement mentality which is also a lazy mentality. I noticed you totally dodged the fact that I showed you to be wrong. Yet you had no problem with calling S2's statement racist because you thought that fast food was all they could get. You are wrong about that.

But, yes I expect people to make an effort. That's a starting point. If people won't make and effort then all other strides towards "equality" are not going to work. They never have and they never will.

The kind of empathy I have is I give my time and money to organizations that not only feed people but teach people. I am all in on that, serve on boards of organizations and I do it in a big way. I have people in my life who I help directly. Don't preach to me about empathy- you have no idea what I do. I want people's lives to get better long term. The right way is to start with solutions that are well rooted. Not with bandaides that are junk.
 
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STPGopher

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Your point is that old people having a difficult time getting around contributes to or is a product of structural racism?

Even if this were true (which I'd honestly love to hear that argument), isn't the fact that the system/structure is moving toward direct deposit and online banking a shining example of how the structure isn't racist? Wouldn't a racist structure make access more difficult?
You make a more than fair point(question). I will get to that. The reply to the question you raised was that getting to a bank for many can be a challenge. More so than knowing where a bank is.

Regarding your point. I do somewhat agree. I wouldn't necessarily say that it is proof, but a symptom. It gets muddy, because of other factors like age, income, etc. The argument of racism, be it systemic, or a collection of individual bias events won't be proven in one simple post.
 

Nokomis

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I'm talking to you not them. Do I have to mush it up for you to get more comfortable? If I am talking to a person with the problem I look at what their situation is and I try to help them find a real way to solve it. We would sit down and look at a budget and their mobility and then we would discuss how to resolve it. That's why government solutions don't work. They just dump money on the issue and the money gets misused and then the hand is back out again the next month.

The problems we are having is not with elderly and disabled people. We can help them. The problems we are having is with able bodied people who have been coached into an entitlement mentality which is also a lazy mentality. I noticed you totally dodged the fact that I showed you to be wrong. Yet you had no problem with calling S2's statement racist because you thought that fast food was all they could get. You are wrong about that.

But, yes I expect people to make an effort. That's a starting point. If people won't make and effort then all other strides towards "equality" are not going to work. They never have and they never will.

The kind of empathy I have is I give my time and money to organizations that not only feed people but teach people. I am all in on that, serve on boards of organizations and I do it in a big way. I have people in my life who I help directly. Don't preach to me about empathy- you have no idea what I do. I want people's lives to get better long term. The right way is to start with solutions that are well rooted. Not with bandaides that are junk.
Relax, BGA, no need to get defensive. I know you're a good person.

You're missing the point, though. I'm not disputing the fact that blacks eat fast food more than whites. S2 said it's simple economics and if all things equal inner city people will choose fast food. You think it's because they're lazy (or conditioned to be lazy). I'm saying that maybe there are other structural things that make it harder to eat healthy.
 

bga1

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Relax, BGA, no need to get defensive. I know you're a good person.

You're missing the point, though. I'm not disputing the fact that blacks eat fast food more than whites. S2 said it's simple economics and if all things equal inner city people will choose fast food. You think it's because they're lazy (or conditioned to be lazy). I'm saying that maybe there are other structural things that make it harder to eat healthy.
I think it is a combination of laziness, family structure and because no one has the guts to talk to them straight. If you sit down with people and try to talk to them about choices, it becomes instantly obvious that they have never understood the consequences of what they are doing.

If there are "structural issues" they are not the main issue, not even close. Do you understand why there are not more stores and more low cost choices nearby for some people? There's too much crime for businesses to do it. It still goes back to the roots of family structure, taking your free education, staying out of trouble, not having kids out of wedlock and getting a job.

If we are going around with happy talk about we are so sorry about the structural issues you face, because whitey is racist, we obscure the real problems and thus the real solution. I volunteer to do benevolence cases. If they won't work with a budget, then they get sent back to work with the government. If you teach- things get better. If you politely lie to them to make yourself feel good, you do damage.
 

STPGopher

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Economic disparities and racism can co-exist. It's not either/or. And even then, you have stories like Torii Hunter being forced at gunpoint to prove he owned his own house when he dared to call the cops.
What you said! Yes it happens!
 
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