Eli King commits to Iowa State

Gopher Teeth

Fear the Teeth
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
877
Reaction score
535
Points
93
Coyle may have played up the local angle too much but Johnson will ultimately be judged on the results on the court, not where the players come from (at least by the people who matter, fans will probably still obsess about the home address of the recruits). If the team is winning games it won't matter where the guys came from.
I believe it was Coyle's way of shielding himself from criticism regarding not taking Smith or Dutcher, which he needed some narrative to present to disarm that criticism. Heck, maybe he truly believed it, but regardless it was the one case that was presented that BJ in theory could come out ahead of Smith and Dutcher. I didn't think it was a good argument, but it was something in theory could be plausible. To make that argument strong you have to put recruiting MN as mission critical. Coyle wasn't alone, there were numerous posts on here disregarding Smith and Dutcher because they wouldn't recruit MN well, or at least haven't recruited MN. My point is Coyle's angle wasn't a random accident, it was foundational of his rationalization for the hire.
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
2,813
Points
113
I believe it was Coyle's way of shielding himself from criticism regarding not taking Smith or Dutcher, which he needed some narrative to present to disarm that criticism. Heck, maybe he truly believed it, but regardless it was the one case that was presented that BJ in theory could come out ahead of Smith and Dutcher. I didn't think it was a good argument, but it was something in theory could be plausible. To make that argument strong you have to put recruiting MN as mission critical. Coyle wasn't alone, there were numerous posts on here disregarding Smith and Dutcher because they wouldn't recruit MN well, or at least haven't recruited MN. My point is Coyle's angle wasn't a random accident, it was foundational of his rationalization for the hire.
I get where you are coming from but I think some are blowing that local recruiting angle out of proportion.

I look at it like this - Johnson is going to get at least 5 years to prove himself (baring a just complete disaster or major off court incident). During that time, if he fills the roster with Minnesota kids but fails to start winning consistently he is going to get fired. On the flip side, if he fails in the quest to land more Minnesota kids but the team is winning games his job will be safe. So to call recruiting Minnesota better "mission critical" doesn't really work.

Feel like a broken record in saying one of the main issues under Pitino was that the team was losing and good/great in-state players were getting away. So it became a massive concern for fans. If the team is winning games, most fans will care less where the recruits are coming from.

My gut feeling is that Johnson is going to do a much better job than Pitino did in convincing guys to stay home. But in the end, his time at the U is going to be determined by success on the court, regardless of where the players come from.
 

GopherBlood666

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
1,462
Reaction score
893
Points
113
I get where you are coming from but I think some are blowing that local recruiting angle out of proportion.

I look at it like this - Johnson is going to get at least 5 years to prove himself (baring a just complete disaster or major off court incident). During that time, if he fills the roster with Minnesota kids but fails to start winning consistently he is going to get fired. On the flip side, if he fails in the quest to land more Minnesota kids but the team is winning games his job will be safe. So to call recruiting Minnesota better "mission critical" doesn't really work.

Feel like a broken record in saying one of the main issues under Pitino was that the team was losing and good/great in-state players were getting away. So it became a massive concern for fans. If the team is winning games, most fans will care less where the recruits are coming from.

My gut feeling is that Johnson is going to do a much better job than Pitino did in convincing guys to stay home. But in the end, his time at the U is going to be determined by success on the court, regardless of where the players come from.
Nah, Coyle cancelled interviews with more experienced head coaches and used local recruiting as the main selling point for doing so. He HAS to win or this will be consistently brought up. It will look worse for Coyle if he does get great MN players and still loses. Your points only reiterate where most of the initial frustration came from. Hire the best coach who wins and players will come from where ever you need them to. We all hope for the best, most just looking for something to look forward to after the disappointing end to this season and really wanted Coyle to nail the hire.
 

alchemy2u

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
4,853
Reaction score
1,195
Points
113
I agree, but this is not why Johnson was hired. Unfairly or not, he will be judged on keeping top talent in state as that was the selling point, so it is fair to criticize the misses. Recruiting is the only thing going on right now, therefore the only thing to criticize positively or negative at the moment. King may be a nice player, but I wouldn't go in panic mode either. Holloman will be the miss or make that will be much more critical to the recruiting perception. If you don't want to read negative criticism on recruiting, maybe stay out of that thread?
He has only been on the job a few weeks, he is not able to change the minds of kids that instantaneously. Plus, no one actually knows how strongly Coach J. pursed King. Just because a few yahoo’s on a message board bitch about something doesn’t make it true.

Maybe you guys shouldn’t fill every thread with imaginary criticism and apocalyptic conclusions. Give the guy a chance to assemble a team and coach a few games before you declare the sky is following.
 

alchemy2u

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
4,853
Reaction score
1,195
Points
113
I believe it was Coyle's way of shielding himself from criticism regarding not taking Smith or Dutcher, which he needed some narrative to present to disarm that criticism. Heck, maybe he truly believed it, but regardless it was the one case that was presented that BJ in theory could come out ahead of Smith and Dutcher. I didn't think it was a good argument, but it was something in theory could be plausible. To make that argument strong you have to put recruiting MN as mission critical. Coyle wasn't alone, there were numerous posts on here disregarding Smith and Dutcher because they wouldn't recruit MN well, or at least haven't recruited MN. My point is Coyle's angle wasn't a random accident, it was foundational of his rationalization for the hire.
Most fans and Coyle want more success in recruiting local player, so why shouldn’t he say it. He was just stating the obvious, not shielding himself. In theory, the local university has a slight advantage in recruiting local players. That has not been the case here in Minnesota for various reasons. The U has been at a disadvantage in recruiting local players. Coyle did his best to correct this and still hire a young coach that is well respected in basketball coaching circles. Hopefully it will work and we will get more MN players, but that doesn’t mean that the team will be only MN players.
 

GopherBlood666

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
1,462
Reaction score
893
Points
113
He has only been on the job a few weeks, he is not able to change the minds of kids that instantaneously. Plus, no one actually knows how strongly Coach J. pursed King. Just because a few yahoo’s on a message board bitch about something doesn’t make it true.

Maybe you guys shouldn’t fill every thread with imaginary criticism and apocalyptic conclusions. Give the guy a chance to assemble a team and coach a few games before you declare the sky is following.
"but I wouldn't go in panic mode either", did you even read my post or are you just using it to reply to everyone who is saying things you don't want to read?
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
2,813
Points
113
Nah, Coyle cancelled interviews with more experienced head coaches and used local recruiting as the main selling point for doing so. He HAS to win or this will be consistently brought up. It will look worse for Coyle if he does get great MN players and still loses. Your points only reiterate where most of the initial frustration came from. Hire the best coach who wins and players will come from where ever you need them to. We all hope for the best, most just looking for something to look forward to after the disappointing end to this season and really wanted Coyle to nail the hire.
I get the disappointment some have with the hire but at this point we have no way of knowing if Coyle nailed the hire or botched it. Johnson has been on the job for a couple weeks, hasn't even had a chance to coach a single game and is just getting started in the 2022 recruiting cycle.

It is a message board, and over reacting is part of what comes along with open forums like this. But some need to take a step back and let things play out a little before throwing in the towel and assuming Johnson is going to fail because he wasn't the guy they wanted to see hired.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,388
Reaction score
3,216
Points
113
Why don't we let johnson be on the job more than 2 weeks before we start judging him on his in state recruiting. So king goes to Iowa State. Doesnt mean johnson is a failure at this point on getting minnesota guys. Still plenty of time. Maybe one of these days we will be a top 5 team and have nobody from minnesota. There are other states out there too! Maybe his assistants will be unbelievable recruiters from the other 49 states. Give it some time!
Spot on.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,388
Reaction score
3,216
Points
113
I agree, but this is not why Johnson was hired. Unfairly or not, he will be judged on keeping top talent in state as that was the selling point, so it is fair to criticize the misses. Recruiting is the only thing going on right now, therefore the only thing to criticize positively or negative at the moment. King may be a nice player, but I wouldn't go in panic mode either. Holloman will be the miss or make that will be much more critical to the recruiting perception. If you don't want to read negative criticism on recruiting, maybe stay out of that thread?
Pretty sure there is progress with recruiting that we know nothing about. He is busy building relationships. That takes time.
 

alchemy2u

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
4,853
Reaction score
1,195
Points
113
Nah, Coyle cancelled interviews with more experienced head coaches and used local recruiting as the main selling point for doing so. He HAS to win or this will be consistently brought up. It will look worse for Coyle if he does get great MN players and still loses. Your points only reiterate where most of the initial frustration came from. Hire the best coach who wins and players will come from where ever you need them to. We all hope for the best, most just looking for something to look forward to after the disappointing end to this season and really wanted Coyle to nail the hire.
Do us all a favor and just do a little homework. Listen to the GH podcast from Nadine and the tgb podcast on the hiring of Ben Johnson. You will quickly learn that Ben is very well respected as a coach and national recruiter. Maybe than you will stop distorting the local recruiting issue way out of proportion.
 

manderson1984

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,645
Reaction score
1,497
Points
113
Pretty sure there is progress with recruiting that we know nothing about. He is busy building relationships. That takes time.

If he doesn't have some 2022 commits by September, then it's time to start worrying or being a little more skeptical. I think Ben's recruiting will differ from Richard in that he will get earlier recruits because of his relationship building and hopefully more pointed/selective recruiting. The big key to your post is that he is busy building them and not on the golf course. Lets hope his work pays off. The relationship paired with a 2021-22 season of growth and development will be the one that really lets him take off and get spring commits from the 2023 class.
 

GopherBlood666

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
1,462
Reaction score
893
Points
113
Do us all a favor and just do a little homework. Listen to the GH podcast from Nadine and the tgb podcast on the hiring of Ben Johnson. You will quickly learn that Ben is very well respected as a coach and national recruiter. Maybe than you will stop distorting the local recruiting issue way out of proportion.
How have I distorted anything? Coyle created the public perception that he was brought in to keep Minnesotans home because of the belief in his ability to establish long lasting relationships with the local basketball scene. I would hope he is respected as a coach/recruiter or why would we have even interviewed him. I've listened to enough GH/TGB podcasts, believe or not there is often more substance on this board. TGB for hoops is not great and mostly get surface level takes at best. I'm not saying it's fair to criticize at this point, but I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't and I understand why they are.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
Why don't we let johnson be on the job more than 2 weeks before we start judging him on his in state recruiting. So king goes to Iowa State. Doesnt mean johnson is a failure at this point on getting minnesota guys. Still plenty of time. Maybe one of these days we will be a top 5 team and have nobody from minnesota. There are other states out there too! Maybe his assistants will be unbelievable recruiters from the other 49 states. Give it some time!

Literally, no one has argued this.

We just hired a coach who was sold to everyone as a great in-state recruiter and in those two weeks a local kid left (Gabe), the local HS recruit signed elsewhere (Chet), and a 4 star kid chose Iowa State over us (Eli).

Personally, I don't even think Chet is a piece of info to think about. But, Gabe and Eli King choosing other schools will be talked about. No one is saying this is proof that he will or won't be successful. People are simply saying that so far, with an extremely small sample size, everything appears to remain the same as it was before.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
The thing I can't figure out is why some are acting like the 2022 class is over based on this one commitment.

Coyle didn't do Johnson any favors by playing up the local recruiting angle in the press conference as some have latched onto that and apparently decided that if we don't get all the top Minnesota kids in 2022 and beyond then the hire is a failure.

Johnson will be judged on the full 2022 class, not just the Minnesota kids in it. The obsession over landing local recruits has gone way over the top on this site.
I think the reason for paragraph (3) is because of paragraph (2). Coyle and the media sold this decision with that angle. Coyle would have been much better served simply keeping it generic. . . I hired Ben because I thought he was the best man for the job.

College fans are always obsessed with the local recruits. This is true everywhere. I think the recruitment of Quinn Ewers is a big reason why UT moved on from Herman this year in football. If Ewers was from Florida and not Texas, I think Herman gets another year.

I think the AD and media put a little gasoline on that local obsession.
 

PeterMac05

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2021
Messages
43
Reaction score
77
Points
18
I think it’s pretty funny that you guys are bashing on Johnson right now. First of all, Eli Kings brother played for T.J. At SDSU so obviously they will have the upper hand over a coach we hired a month ago. Secondly, Gabe was gone no matter what, and if it was pitino still here he would’ve bolted even faster. I think coach Johnson and his extremely experienced coaching staff know a lot more about THEIR recruiting then we do. Oh yeah by the way he’s already landed 6 quality transfers including fox over Ohio state. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s more than anyone in the country.
 

builtbadgers

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
7,388
Reaction score
3,216
Points
113
Literally, no one has argued this.

We just hired a coach who was sold to everyone as a great in-state recruiter and in those two weeks a local kid left (Gabe), the local HS recruit signed elsewhere (Chet), and a 4 star kid chose Iowa State over us (Eli).

Personally, I don't even think Chet is a piece of info to think about. But, Gabe and Eli King choosing other schools will be talked about. No one is saying this is proof that he will or won't be successful. People are simply saying that so far, with an extremely small sample size, everything appears to remain the same as it was before.
Part of Coyle's job is public relations. I do not think things are as they were perceived before. These guys will build a culture and recruit to the vision of that culture and then the culture itself. They will coach better. They will have a identity and a defense.
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
2,813
Points
113
I think the reason for paragraph (3) is because of paragraph (2). Coyle and the media sold this decision with that angle. Coyle would have been much better served simply keeping it generic. . . I hired Ben because I thought he was the best man for the job.

College fans are always obsessed with the local recruits. This is true everywhere. I think the recruitment of Quinn Ewers is a big reason why UT moved on from Herman this year in football. If Ewers was from Florida and not Texas, I think Herman gets another year.

I think the AD and media put a little gasoline on that local obsession.
Agree that the "one of us" angle is out there pretty much everywhere but I think Minnesotans take it to another level in a lot of cases.

The main issue is that those who don't like the Johnson hire are going to use it against him every single time a Minnesota kid goes somewhere else. Doesn't matter if the exact same outcome would have happened with a different coach like Smith or Dutcher.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
Part of Coyle's job is public relations. I do not think things are as they were perceived before. These guys will build a culture and recruit to the vision of that culture and then the culture itself. They will coach better. They will have a identity and a defense.

Of course and I think he did a poor job of public relations. I think his spin regarding the hiring will give Ben an unrealistic shorter leash (at least in terms of public perception).

He wanted to have a good press conference and that press conference added gasoline to an unrealistic narrative.

IMO it was short-sighted.
 

Gopher Teeth

Fear the Teeth
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
877
Reaction score
535
Points
93
Pretty sure there is progress with recruiting that we know nothing about. He is busy building relationships. That takes time.
What relationships does he already have? He has been recruiting for a long time so surely he has been building relationships for awhile. I don't think there should be some 'delay' due to relationship building, if he is a good recruiter he should already have been building those relationships. I get a delay, if he was going from Concordia - St. Paul to Minnesota, but he is going from Xavier to Minnesota, those same players should be able to step into the B1G. I am searching 247, but I am not finding any information on the site. I asked myself, surely BJ has been recruiting MN even when he was at Xavier. I went through all the MN recruits, only one was being recruited by Xavier (not sure it was BJ, assume it was) Demarion Watson. Does anyone know if he has any relationships with MN recruits or is he starting from square one? Has anyone heard about any of the recruits he established relationships with while recruiting for Xavier?
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
9,887
Reaction score
2,813
Points
113
Of course and I think he did a poor job of public relations. I think his spin regarding the hiring will give Ben an unrealistic shorter leash (at least in terms of public perception).

He wanted to have a good press conference and that press conference added gasoline to an unrealistic narrative.

IMO it was short-sighted.
Maybe, although I think the people who were going to be disappointed in the Johnson hire would have hated it no matter what Coyle said. All he did was give them some additional amo to use against the hire if he does in fact struggle to improve our fortunes with local recruits.
 

ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,125
Reaction score
288
Points
83
I kind of think we were pretty far behind in the King recruitment compared to the Iowa schools. Pretty hard to catch up in less than a month. I remember when Pitino was hired people were giving him a pass for Macura, Tyus, Travis and Vaughn and they were juniors when he was hired. Why the double standard?
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
Agree that the "one of us" angle is out there pretty much everywhere but I think Minnesotans take it to another level in a lot of cases.

The main issue is that those who don't like the Johnson hire are going to use it against him every single time a Minnesota kid goes somewhere else. Doesn't matter if the exact same outcome would have happened with a different coach like Smith or Dutcher.

Of course they are going to hold it against them. The fan base was told by the media and the AD that he was hired for this reason. It's the reason why we should ignore his lack of a resume.

Of course if Smith had been hired it would be viewed differently. But there is a huge difference between Smith and Ben Johnson. We have absolutely ZERO information of how Ben will be as a coach other than he connects with local recruits. Smith and Dutcher both have experience successfully coaching college basketball.

It's kind of like comparing Brew to Kill. With Kill, no one was expecting great recruiting. If Brewer got hired and wasn't able to recruit. . . uh oh (in terms of perception).
 

ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,125
Reaction score
288
Points
83
What relationships does he already have? He has been recruiting for a long time so surely he has been building relationships for awhile. I don't think there should be some 'delay' due to relationship building, if he is a good recruiter he should already have been building those relationships. I get a delay, if he was going from Concordia - St. Paul to Minnesota, but he is going from Xavier to Minnesota, those same players should be able to step into the B1G. I am searching 247, but I am not finding any information on the site. I asked myself, surely BJ has been recruiting MN even when he was at Xavier. I went through all the MN recruits, only one was being recruited by Xavier (not sure it was BJ, assume it was) Demarion Watson. Does anyone know if he has any relationships with MN recruits or is he starting from square one? Has anyone heard about any of the recruits he established relationships with while recruiting for Xavier?

He was at Minnesota before he went to Xavier....so I doubt he is starting from square one.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
Maybe, although I think the people who were going to be disappointed in the Johnson hire would have hated it no matter what Coyle said. All he did was give them some additional amo to use against the hire if he does in fact struggle to improve our fortunes with local recruits.
It's not additional ammo. That was how it was sold to the public. It put a target on Ben prematurely.

But your point is correct. The people who don't like the hiring, it'll give them layups to rip Ben. For the casual fan, they'll notice the locals signing elsewhere. For the people who loved the hiring of Ben Johnson because they expected local recruiting, you'd think this would start to bother them (if it continues). For the people who liked Ben's hiring regardless of local recruiting, that's just weird.
 

GopherBlood666

Well-known member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
1,462
Reaction score
893
Points
113
I kind of think we were pretty far behind in the King recruitment compared to the Iowa schools. Pretty hard to catch up in less than a month. I remember when Pitino was hired people were giving him a pass for Macura, Tyus, Travis and Vaughn and they were juniors when he was hired. Why the double standard?
Pitino was criticized so heavily on in-state recruiting misses that the current coach was hired specifically for building MN recruiting relationships. I have seen people on this board bring up Macura plenty of times. Pitino was also not expected to have any pre-existing MN relationships.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
13,060
Reaction score
2,686
Points
113
I kind of think we were pretty far behind in the King recruitment compared to the Iowa schools. Pretty hard to catch up in less than a month. I remember when Pitino was hired people were giving him a pass for Macura, Tyus, Travis and Vaughn and they were juniors when he was hired. Why the double standard?

Everyone figured Tyus and Vaughn were gone, but Pitino took a little heat over them. As for Macura, Pitino got absolutely destroyed on GH when he lost out on Macura. Travis was somewhat similar.

Here are some posts from the Macura thread:

"terrible, terrible, terrible. . . WHY?"

"This might be over dramatic but I just lost all faith In pitino"

"Don't think you can give Pitino a pass on this one I player like Rashad Vaughn and Whitehead yeah probably, but its not like Macura was getting recruited by Kentucky or Syracuse"

"The Master Recruiter strikes again!!"

 

Golden Shower

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
248
Reaction score
14
Points
18
This. Iowa at least I could rationalize the logic. (Relatively) interesting college town, recent success, good academics, good facilities. Iowa State is worse on all accounts than both IA and MN. Ames- really?!?
Have you ever been to the Iowa State campus? It’s fantastic. And it isn’t in the crime infested reach of Minneapolis.
 

TWeber

Active member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
208
Reaction score
44
Points
28
Complete overhaul? He did worse than the coach that he replaced! Stole SDSU's star player and still couldn't do anything!
Yes...he overhauled the roster. Exactly what I said. I believe 7 of the 17 players he inherited came back for his first year at UNLV. He then brought fewer than half of his first roster back the second year. That is an overhaul.

Look, it is clear you don't like TJ. No problem. He left you and you are hurt. Not sure how you "steal" players...I believe it is up to the players as to where they want to play. But you obviously are hurt there too. You seem like you have some pretty serious emotional scars from TJ. Every point you bring up, I correct factually regarding his times at SDSU or UNLV. I find those on Google. He has torn it up so far at Iowa State too in his time there recruiting. There is a reason he went 27-3 in the conference his last two years at SDSU (and it is not because he can't coach). If you don't fear him, great for the Gophers. We will see, but people who understand basketball understand why he is where he is and why he gets the players he gets.
 

Boomtime

Active member
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
166
Reaction score
70
Points
28
Have you ever been to the Iowa State campus? It’s fantastic. And it isn’t in the crime infested reach of Minneapolis.
Yep, but the only females on campus <200 lbs are on the womens' athletic teams or cheer squads.
 
Top Bottom