Don't believe the hype, the B1G is still BIG!!!

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Yes, the B1G is lacking in star power, but no other conference in the nation has as many RPI Top 100 rated teams, with 11. And only the Big 12 has as many RPI Top 50 rated teams.

And the crazy thing about this fact, is that the Ken-Pom, Massey, Sagarin and BPI ratings ALL show alot more respect for the B1G. RPI only has 2 B1G teams ranked Top 25, all 4 of those others have 3. RPI only has 7 B1G teams ranked Top 50, Massey's Rating has 8 B1G teams ranked Top 50 and both the BPI and Sagarin have 9 B1G teams ranked Top 50.

In fact, if the Sagarin Ratings determined the NCAA tourney field, after Fridays games, NINE B1G teams would dance, with the Illini having the 9th best Sagarin Rating of 41st. The BPI would have 6 in for sure, with Minnesota coming in with the 6th best BPI rating of #35, and Purdue at #44, Indiana at #45 and Illinois at #47 would all be looked at. Massey would have 7 B1G teams in with Minnesota at #49 and Purdue at #51 as bubble teams. Ken-Pom would have 6 B1G teams in with Minnesota being the 6th in with a rating of #39. Indy at #51, Purdue at #53 and Illinois at #54 would be bubble teams.


So we all know the RPI is what the Selection Committee looks at first, but we all have to hope that is not the only rating they look at.


Another thing that will help is with the B1G only having 3 teams that are potential bad losses right now, while almost every other conference out there has more, teams from other conferences are going to get hurt by playing conf games more than B1G teams will be hurt by playing each other. An example just today was Cincinnati losing a home game to Tulane who was rated somewhere around #180 before the game. Cincy dropped around 10 spots in the RPI down to #38 or so, and added a 3rd bad loss to their resume. They have a road loss to a really bad ECU and their remaining scedule will hurt their RPI unless they win out, which is very doubtful. This is a team that seems very likely to move on down the ratings.



So the B1G is not down, we just aren't top heavy like some conferences are. Maybe we won't get 3 teams into the Elite 8 like we did last year, but how many conferences do that more often than once in a blue moon?
 

Dr.Don

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One hell of an OP. Got lots of feed back, little guy.
 

Dr.Don

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Just in case you did not catch my sarcasm, your OP got no arguments. Everyone agrees with you, big guy. :)
 

Lakers612

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Great post.

When people start making wacky claims like the SEC is a better basketball conference than the Big 10 that's when I know the hate for the Big 10 is real.

I'm not sure the Big 10 is the best conference, but as for as depth I don't think any other conference in the country boasts so many solid teams.
 
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Great post.

When people start making wacky claims like the SEC is a better basketball conference than the Big 10 that's when I know the hate for the Big 10 is real.

I'm not sure the Big 10 is the best conference, but as for as depth I don't think any other conference in the country boasts so many solid teams.

Thanks, but unfortunately the B1G's strength this year is very middle heavy, while other conferences, like the ACC and BE are very top heavy. I would laugh(and cry) if the NIT tourney ended up with 4 B1G teams playing in the Semis.

B1G could have gotten lucky and gotten 9 teams in the Dance, if the bottom 5 teams did their jobs and lost to any of the Top 9 teams, and if Wisconsin did their part and lost to a few of the #2-8 teams. But no, UW pummeled the Illini today and NW really hurt Iowa, and the conf as a whole by beating Iowa today.
 

SelectionSunday

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Using an unofficial eyeball test I'd rank the Power 6 conferences this way:

1. Big XII
2. ACC
3. Big Ten
4. Big East
5. SEC
6. Pac 12

Best Non-Power 6: American (SMU, Cincinnati, Temple. ... middle to bottom awful, though)
 
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Using an unofficial eyeball test I'd rank the Power 6 conferences this way:

1. Big XII
2. ACC
3. Big Ten
4. Big East
5. SEC
6. Pac 12

Best Non-Power 6: American (SMU, Cincinnati, Temple. ... middle to bottom awful, though)

I think I agree with you on your Top 6 SS.

Not sure if I agree about the American, kind of think they might be overrated? But you might be right?! Cincy's next game is vs Xavier. Will tell us more.
 

SelectionSunday

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I think I agree with you on your Top 6 SS.

Not sure if I agree about the American, kind of think they might be overrated? But you might be right?! Cincy's next game is vs Xavier. Will tell us more.
It was hard to pick between American and A-10. Neither all that impressive this season. A-10 has more decent teams (6-7), but American probably stronger at top.
 

justthefacts

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The problem with passing the eye test is that B1G teams are doing it while playing other B1G teams. They failed the eye test playing North Florida, Gardner-Webb, NJIT, Eastern Michigan, Incarnate Word, Charlotte, Central Michigan, St Peters, St Francis, Eastern Washington, and Texas Southern. Purdue, Michigan, MSU etc may well have improved, but they blew it when they had a chance to help the conference.
 

SelectionSunday

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The problem with passing the eye test is that B1G teams are doing it while playing other B1G teams. They failed the eye test playing North Florida, Gardner-Webb, NJIT, Eastern Michigan, Incarnate Word, Charlotte, Central Michigan, St Peters, St Francis, Eastern Washington, and Texas Southern. Purdue, Michigan, MSU etc may well have improved, but they blew it when they had a chance to help the conference.
I offer a common refrain every year at this time. Individual teams get bids, not conferences. Every team is an Independent in the eyes of the Selection Committee. The Selection Committee stresses that over & over every year, as do the writers & TV people who leave the Mock Selection Sunday Committee every February. To a man (or woman) they all say conference affiliation never comes up when at-large teams are being discussed.

Yes, if teams like Michigan State and Purdue end up on the bubble and they are being evaluated vs. other teams, those singular "bad losses" certainly will hurt their singular resumes, just like other bubble teams from other conferences' singular "bad losses" will hurt their singular resumes. The committee isn't going to say, "Hey, other teams in Sparty and Purdue's conference had really bad losses, too, so let's punish them (individually) for that," nor will they say that for a team from a different conference.

They're all Independents.
 

justthefacts

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I offer a common refrain every year at this time. Individual teams get bids, not conferences. Every team is an Independent in the eyes of the Selection Committee. The Selection Committee stresses that over & over every year, as do the writers & TV people who leave the Mock Selection Sunday Committee every February. To a man (or woman) they all say conference affiliation never comes up when at-large teams are being discussed.

Yes, if teams like Michigan State and Purdue end up on the bubble and they are being evaluated vs. other teams, those singular "bad losses" certainly will hurt their singular resumes, just like other bubble teams from other conferences' singular "bad losses" will hurt their singular resumes. The committee isn't going to say, "Hey, other teams in Sparty and Purdue's conference had really bad losses, too, so let's punish them (individually) for that," nor will they say that for a team from a different conference.

They're all Independents.
I agree, and I just wrote something very similar in another thread, but the fact is that MSU, Michigan, Nebraska, and Purdue hurt their conference opponents by becoming worse RPIs when they lost those games. 2 games against Michigan this year do not help a Big Ten team's SOS as they might have in the past. In previous years you could play a very mediocre non-Conf and get in based on a really tough conf SOS, as OSU did a couple of times. This year, if you didn't get your work done in the non-conf, you need to have racked up lots of wins in conference.
 

justthefacts

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Well, sure, but this year 'lots' means 12, whereas before it might have meant 9. MSU would be exhibit A. One more win might have been good enough to make it were the win over Michigan a top 50 win and the loss to Nebraska not a 100+ loss and if that win was against Purdue as a top 50 team.
 
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The problem with passing the eye test is that B1G teams are doing it while playing other B1G teams. They failed the eye test playing North Florida, Gardner-Webb, NJIT, Eastern Michigan, Incarnate Word, Charlotte, Central Michigan, St Peters, St Francis, Eastern Washington, and Texas Southern. Purdue, Michigan, MSU etc may well have improved, but they blew it when they had a chance to help the conference.


It could be deemed irresponsible citing only the worst losses of the entire conference as a whole, minus context.

I mean, how on earth, with such a supposedly horrible and embarrrassing resume, could the B1G have attained such Positive ratings from ALL of the rating systems?!

8-9 Top 50 rated teams in the BPI, Massey, Sagarin & in TeamRankings Ratings.



Maybe you conveniently, and lazily, fail to provide context, because you either have an agenda, or are just LAZY?? Having an agenda is not a crime per se,especially if one is to admit such agenda, but being lazy is, IMHO. Nobody is claiming the B1G dominates the Top 25 rankings, but a very strong, VERY strong argument can be made that the B1G dominates the Top 50 ratings. Wins over Top 20 rated teams are not required simply to be a Top 50 rated team, and neither are single bad losses a disqualification.

If you think me ignorant or uneducated, that would not be wise. If I am wrong, so be it, but it will take someone willing to do some homework to prove me so.
 

builtbadgers

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It could be deemed irresponsible citing only the worst losses of the entire conference as a whole, minus context.

I mean, how on earth, with such a supposedly horrible and embarrrassing resume, could the B1G have attained such Positive ratings from ALL of the rating systems?!

8-9 Top 50 rated teams in the BPI, Massey, Sagarin & in TeamRankings Ratings.



Maybe you conveniently, and lazily, fail to provide context, because you either have an agenda, or are just LAZY?? Having an agenda is not a crime per se,especially if one is to admit such agenda, but being lazy is, IMHO. Nobody is claiming the B1G dominates the Top 25 rankings, but a very strong, VERY strong argument can be made that the B1G dominates the Top 50 ratings. Wins over Top 20 rated teams are not required simply to be a Top 50 rated team, and neither are single bad losses a disqualification.

If you think me ignorant or uneducated, that would not be wise. If I am wrong, so be it, but it will take someone willing to do some homework to prove me so.
depends what you want for criteria. if your looking for excellence, then the ACC has 3 teams that can make the final 4. The Big 10 has one great team.
 

justthefacts

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It could be deemed irresponsible citing only the worst losses of the entire conference as a whole, minus context.

I mean, how on earth, with such a supposedly horrible and embarrrassing resume, could the B1G have attained such Positive ratings from ALL of the rating systems?!

8-9 Top 50 rated teams in the BPI, Massey, Sagarin & in TeamRankings Ratings.



Maybe you conveniently, and lazily, fail to provide context, because you either have an agenda, or are just LAZY?? Having an agenda is not a crime per se,especially if one is to admit such agenda, but being lazy is, IMHO. Nobody is claiming the B1G dominates the Top 25 rankings, but a very strong, VERY strong argument can be made that the B1G dominates the Top 50 ratings. Wins over Top 20 rated teams are not required simply to be a Top 50 rated team, and neither are single bad losses a disqualification.

If you think me ignorant or uneducated, that would not be wise. If I am wrong, so be it, but it will take someone willing to do some homework to prove me so.
A) Notice you don't list all the great non-conf wins to provide context. Because there just aren't that many. Maryland beat Iowa State. Iowa won at North Carolina. Illinois beat Baylor. Wisconsin beat Oklahoma. The Big Ten has more RPI 200+ losses than we have RPI 25 wins.

B) Here's more context. The Big Ten is 4th in RPI, 4th in KenPom, 4th in Sagarin.
 

SelectionSunday

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A) Notice you don't list all the great non-conf wins to provide context. Because there just aren't that many. Maryland beat Iowa State. Iowa won at North Carolina. Illinois beat Baylor. Wisconsin beat Oklahoma. The Big Ten has more RPI 200+ losses than we have RPI 25 wins.

B) Here's more context. The Big Ten is 4th in RPI, 4th in KenPom, 4th in Sagarin.
Yet despite those numbers, the Big Ten still has a chance to land 8 teams in the NCAA. Perhaps not a great chance, but a decent chance provided Michigan State (need 2 more wins), Purdue and Iowa (especially) finish strong down the stretch. Looking at teams' remaining schedules there's a very real possibility 7 teams (maybe even 8) will head to Chicago with at least 10-8 conference records.

Am of belief that quality wins easily outweigh bad losses. Bad losses are easily forgiven as long as teams counter with several quality wins. I certainly think that's likely to be the case with Purdue if they end up 12-6 or 11-7. Yes, the Boilers have a couple stinkers (North Florida, Gardner-Webb), but what's rarely mentioned is the Boilers have a couple "helpful" non-conference wins, #47 NC State and #57 BYU on a neutral court. And that's not even mentioning the 3 RPI top-50 wins they have in conference play.
 
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A) Notice you don't list all the great non-conf wins to provide context. Because there just aren't that many. Maryland beat Iowa State. Iowa won at North Carolina. Illinois beat Baylor. Wisconsin beat Oklahoma. The Big Ten has more RPI 200+ losses than we have RPI 25 wins.

B) Here's more context. The Big Ten is 4th in RPI, 4th in KenPom, 4th in Sagarin.


It wasn't my responsibility to list all the great non-conf wins. A policeman does not have to list all of his qualificatons while pointing out that someone is committing a crime. Now I am neither a policeman, nor was the poster committing a crime, but I stated I thought it was verging on being irresponsible to list bad losses, and not good wins. Also, how many of those bad losses were suffered by the likes of Wisconsin, Maryland, Ohio St, Iowa, Indiana or Illinois? Or were the teams that suffered those bad losses for the most part teams NOT in the upper 2/3rds of the conf rankings?

But, you wanted a list of the ooc wins, fine.

Nuet court win over #10 Iowa St
ROAD win over #12 UNC
Nuet court win over #14 Baylor
Nuet court win over #15 Oklahoma
Home court win over #19 SMU
Nuet court win over #21 Georgetown
Nuet court win over #23 Butler
ROAD win over #28 Oklahome St
Home court win over #37 Boise St
Nuet cort win over #40 Georgia
Home court win over #45 NCSU
Home court win over #50 Cincinnati
Home court win over #53 Pittsburgh
Nuet court win over #55 BYU
Home court win over #55 Buffalo
Nuet court win over #59 Oregon
Home court win over #63 Green Bay
Home court win over #65 Syracuse

And those are just the non-conf wins. OSU, for example, has 3 Top 50 conf wins, and no bad losses. Their worst loss was a Road game vs #57 Purdue. MSU has 2 Top 50 wins and a Road win vs #58 Iowa and Purdue needed to prove themselves in conf after suffering several bad losses, and have done just that.

And the B1G may not be rated #1 by some of the Rating services out there, but Top 3 or 4 is not horrible, its not so bad when considering there are over 350 div 1 cbb teams, and no other conference can boast having NINE Top 40 rated teams in TeamRankings Predictive ratings. Or to have NINE Top 50 rated teams in the Sagarin Ratings. Eight are rated Top 50 in the BPI with Purdue coming in at #51. Granted all 3 of those have Minnesota rated well, still.


So the ACC is top heavy, so what. The B1G got 3 teams to the Elite 8 last year and we've gotten 2 teams to the Final Four probably more times than any other conference out there, but we can't and won't do that every season. When we do well, we lose more talent to the NBA and hence may need a rebuilding season. But if a rebuilding season includes getting 8 teams into the Big Dance, I'd hardly complain. Just be thankful you are not a fan of an AAC team. They might only get one or two teams in this year, and I seriously doubt either will do diddly squat.

But realistically, Minnesota is not going to win 6 straight games to get themselves into the Semi-Finals of the Big Ten conf tourney, getting 4-6 high quality wins along the way, including 6 Top 100 wins, SO. That still leaves 8 B1G teams all rated quite well and looking like they could(or should) get into the NCAA tourney.
 

justthefacts

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It wasn't my responsibility to list all the great non-conf wins. A policeman does not have to list all of his qualificatons while pointing out that someone is committing a crime. Now I am neither a policeman, nor was the poster committing a crime, but I stated I thought it was verging on being irresponsible to list bad losses, and not good wins. Also, how many of those bad losses were suffered by the likes of Wisconsin, Maryland, Ohio St, Iowa, Indiana or Illinois? Or were the teams that suffered those bad losses for the most part teams NOT in the upper 2/3rds of the conf rankings?

But, you wanted a list of the ooc wins, fine.

Nuet court win over #10 Iowa St
ROAD win over #12 UNC
Nuet court win over #14 Baylor
Nuet court win over #15 Oklahoma
Home court win over #19 SMU
Nuet court win over #21 Georgetown
Nuet court win over #23 Butler
ROAD win over #28 Oklahome St
Home court win over #37 Boise St
Nuet cort win over #40 Georgia
Home court win over #45 NCSU
Home court win over #50 Cincinnati
Home court win over #53 Pittsburgh
Nuet court win over #55 BYU
Home court win over #55 Buffalo
Nuet court win over #59 Oregon
Home court win over #63 Green Bay
Home court win over #65 Syracuse

And those are just the non-conf wins. OSU, for example, has 3 Top 50 conf wins, and no bad losses. Their worst loss was a Road game vs #57 Purdue. MSU has 2 Top 50 wins and a Road win vs #58 Iowa and Purdue needed to prove themselves in conf after suffering several bad losses, and have done just that.

And the B1G may not be rated #1 by some of the Rating services out there, but Top 3 or 4 is not horrible, its not so bad when considering there are over 350 div 1 cbb teams, and no other conference can boast having NINE Top 40 rated teams in TeamRankings Predictive ratings. Or to have NINE Top 50 rated teams in the Sagarin Ratings. Eight are rated Top 50 in the BPI with Purdue coming in at #51. Granted all 3 of those have Minnesota rated well, still.


So the ACC is top heavy, so what. The B1G got 3 teams to the Elite 8 last year and we've gotten 2 teams to the Final Four probably more times than any other conference out there, but we can't and won't do that every season. When we do well, we lose more talent to the NBA and hence may need a rebuilding season. But if a rebuilding season includes getting 8 teams into the Big Dance, I'd hardly complain. Just be thankful you are not a fan of an AAC team. They might only get one or two teams in this year, and I seriously doubt either will do diddly squat.

But realistically, Minnesota is not going to win 6 straight games to get themselves into the Semi-Finals of the Big Ten conf tourney, getting 4-6 high quality wins along the way, including 6 Top 100 wins, SO. That still leaves 8 B1G teams all rated quite well and looking like they could(or should) get into the NCAA tourney.
A) Actually quite a few of the losses were suffered by teams in the top 2/3. Purdue had 2 horrible losses. Indiana had 1. MSU had one. Michigan had 2.
B) It's funny that you list Buffalo, Green Bay and Syracuse home wins in your list. Pretty telling. You know who else beat those teams? Teams like St Bonaventure, Akron, Oakland, UC Irvine, California.
C) You know what helps when you're trying to have a bunch of top 50 teams? Having 14 teams. The Big 12 and the Big East each have 10.
D) You can't really use in-conference wins to discuss the strength of the conference. I've got a prediction for the the Big Ten's aggregate winning percentage will be in conference games this year: .500

You started by saying the Big Ten is not down. By every objective measure the conference is worse than it's been in 4 or 5 years. You've kind of changed the argument to being about whether the Big Ten is good, but that's impossible to resolve. Sure, the Big Ten is better than the Pac 12, but you cannot argue with the fact it is down.
 
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