Coaches Thread

builtbadgers

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Alchemy, apples to apples. His first 5 years he was not even in a conference so he could not have a winning conference record. The only apples to apples is the power 6 jobs and in year 6 he went 12-2 , won the ACC and finished 2nd in the NCAA tourney. We are past year 6 here and have never come anywhere near that here. If we go by facts, 40-70 is a fact. K was 40-44 in his first 6 years in the ACC.
 
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alchemy2u

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Alchemy, apples to apples. His first 5 years he was not even in a conference so he could not have a winning conference record. The only apples to apples is the power 6 jobs and in year 6 he went 12-2 , won the ACC and finished 2nd in the NCAA tourney. We are past year 6 here and have never come anywhere near that here. If we go by facts, 40-70 is a fact. K was 40-44 in his first 6 years in the ACC.
NO! You refuse to acknowledge that those first 5 years he was also a Head Coach, where he was able to learn on the job at a much lower level of competition.

In his 5th year at Army, it did join the "powerful" ECACM Conference where his team finished 10th out of 11 teams! He was behind such powerhouses as Iona, Saint Peter's, long Island University, Wagner, Siena, Fairleigh Dickinson, St Francis (NY), Fairfield and Fordham.

He finished his first year at Duke with a losing conference record (5th out of 8 teams) while having 2 seniors and 1 junior that went onto play in the NBA!
It even get worse in his second year where he where he finished 10-17 with a conference record of only 4-10. He only had the one senior that went on to play in the NBA. And then in his third year at Duke it is a wonder that he never got fired because he had another losing record 11-17 and only was 3-11 in the conference. That is with 3 freshman that went onto the NBA and the other two freshman gave him a big recruiting class. That started the rise of his program at Duke and saved him from getting fired.

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/08/duke-mens-basketball-jay-bilas-class-that-saved-coach-k

Coach K got that breakthrough recruiting class in 1982 that saved his job and launched his career. In today's College BB atmosphere, Pitino most likely won't get such a breakthrough class, but will have to build it gradually.
 

builtbadgers

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Check the record book, they formed the conference but every team played as a independent. I get the idea of a learning curve but everyone knew that Army was the most difficult job, period. Knight knew that K was a brilliant mind and would be great. I hope your right that Pitino has those accomplishments after 12 total years. I already said i supported him for this year. A study of what all the great coaches did in their 1st 6 years in a major conference reveals great success by then, conference title and or Final 4. Early success portends greatness. What will you say if there are 10-12 years without a conference title or a final 4 ?
 

alchemy2u

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But most of the early P5 success of "those" coaches that you speak are in their 5 - 20th year as a head coach!

I am willing to give him a chance to get into his 10-12th years instead of just arbitrarily tossing him out, like Coach K could have been.
 

builtbadgers

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But most of the early P5 success of "those" coaches that you speak are in their 5 - 20th year as a head coach!

I am willing to give him a chance to get into his 10-12th years instead of just arbitrarily tossing him out, like Coach K could have been.
Understood. I am not willing to go 10 years if we do not have a single year of even challenging for the conference and have 9 years of a losing conference record. We both want the same thing, to win big. I just do not see the potential to be a superstar coach. You do. I do not think your a fool for thinking that. My opinion is based on never seeing someone go 40-70 and then go on to have top line success.
 

BarnBurner

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Understood. I am not willing to go 10 years if we do not have a single year of even challenging for the conference and have 9 years of a losing conference record. We both want the same thing, to win big. I just do not see the potential to be a superstar coach. You do. I do not think your a fool for thinking that. My opinion is based on never seeing someone go 40-70 and then go on to have top line success.
Does Coyle agree with you? It appears not, as RP is still in the position.

And, if Coyle did agree with you, there is no reason not to move on to get the next "superstar coach" in Williams. As you have stated in the past, it was the Admin/AD at the U that made the mistakes.

If I understand you and others correctly now, Coyle is a superstar AD. Inaction from a superstar AD on a major position in his org chart does not jive. Unless, of course, Coyle sees "superstar" potential in RP.

Cant have it both ways.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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But most of the early P5 success of "those" coaches that you speak are in their 5 - 20th year as a head coach!

I am willing to give him a chance to get into his 10-12th years instead of just arbitrarily tossing him out, like Coach K could have been.
You're willing to give Pitino a 10-12 year leash?
 

builtbadgers

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Does Coyle agree with you? It appears not, as RP is still in the position.

And, if Coyle did agree with you, there is no reason not to move on to get the next "superstar coach" in Williams. As you have stated in the past, it was the Admin/AD at the U that made the mistakes.

If I understand you and others correctly now, Coyle is a superstar AD. Inaction from a superstar AD on a major position in his org chart does not jive. Unless, of course, Coyle sees "superstar" potential in RP.

Cant have it both ways.
Never said that Coyle was a superstar AD. Said he was off to a good start. Think he goes about his business thoughtfully with a far better plan than we have had in decades. To be a superstar AD requires hiring and or keeping great coaches, raising tons of money, enforcing academic models for athletes.
 

BarnBurner

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Never said that Coyle was a superstar AD. Said he was off to a good start. Think he goes about his business thoughtfully with a far better plan than we have had in decades. To be a superstar AD requires hiring and or keeping great coaches, raising tons of money, enforcing academic models for athletes.
Your ability to hedge is outstanding.
 

Otis

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Pitino is no Bobby Knight or Coach K, however, his players are doing well in the classroom. Yes, he has had off-court instances but he has also had tremendous successes in personnel.

Without the problems he faced two years ago, this conversation wouldn't even take place. Maybe Coyle chooses to judge on what could have been instead of what happened because he likes Pitino. There have been worse decisions at the U!

I hope the Gophers sign Garcia, Walton and Mashburn, have a winning B1G record and return to the tournament.

That way all this anti-Pitino crap can go away.

Go Gophers!

Built, are you riding Lindsay for her teams epic collapse last season after their hot start? She also let the #1 recruit in the nation escape the state. Is she not the right woman for the job, either?

I'm thinking both these coaches have potential.
 

builtbadgers

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Pitino is no Bobby Knight or Coach K, however, his players are doing well in the classroom. Yes, he has had off-court instances but he has also had tremendous successes in personnel.

Without the problems he faced two years ago, this conversation wouldn't even take place. Maybe Coyle chooses to judge on what could have been instead of what happened because he likes Pitino. There have been worse decisions at the U!

I hope the Gophers sign Garcia, Walton and Mashburn, have a winning B1G record and return to the tournament.

That way all this anti-Pitino crap can go away.

Go Gophers!

Built, are you riding Lindsay for her teams epic collapse last season after their hot start? She also let the #1 recruit in the nation escape the state. Is she not the right woman for the job, either?

I'm thinking both these coaches have potential.
Do not follow the program closely enough to know but i am betting she will be better than 40-70 after 6 seasons.
 

BarnBurner

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Hedge what, never said Coyle was a superstar.
I have not seen you call Coyle a superstar.

I have seen you sing the praises of Coyle, far more than your previous post suggests. THAT is your hedge.
 

bemidjigopher

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You're willing to give Pitino a 10-12 year leash?
I personally would give him this year and next year for sure, unless the wheels completely fall off this year, 2021 team should pass the built test, especially if we get a good recruiting class in 2020. Pitino is close, but at some point you got to get over the hump. Get to the dance this year and that's 3/4 years, if they win a game in the dance this year, first time in 30 years they would have done it in back to back seasons

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builtbadgers

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I personally would give him this year and next year for sure, unless the wheels completely fall off this year, 2021 team should pass the built test, especially if we get a good recruiting class in 2020. Pitino is close, but at some point you got to get over the hump. Get to the dance this year and that's 3/4 years, if they win a game in the dance this year, first time in 30 years they would have done it in back to back seasons

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With you. Plus i do not see the wheels off this year. The recruiting at other schools is really picking up steam. He will need to be special to break in at the top. That is what special coaches do. I have kept the faith and like the staff now but it has to be reflected in wins and losses. Making the tourney and doing the things you mentioned are nice steps but lets see sustainable and at least back to back winning conference records where the U actually finishes above UW, especially since so many here think Gard is average.
 

bemidjigopher

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With you. Plus i do not see the wheels off this year. The recruiting at other schools is really picking up steam. He will need to be special to break in at the top. That is what special coaches do. I have kept the faith and like the staff now but it has to be reflected in wins and losses. Making the tourney and doing the things you mentioned are nice steps but lets see sustainable and at least back to back winning conference records where the U actually finishes above UW, especially since so many here think Gard is average.
Agreed but I think for us to have sustained success we have to take those steps. Big year for Gard, it's completely his show now in Madison.

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With you. Plus i do not see the wheels off this year. The recruiting at other schools is really picking up steam. He will need to be special to break in at the top. That is what special coaches do. I have kept the faith and like the staff now but it has to be reflected in wins and losses. Making the tourney and doing the things you mentioned are nice steps but lets see sustainable and at least back to back winning conference records where the U actually finishes above UW, especially since so many here think Gard is average.
I thought this year was the last for you, unless Pitino wins the conf or top 3?
 

builtbadgers

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I thought this year was the last for you, unless Pitino wins the conf or top 3?
Think again. I would be in favor of a couple more years if he can do something pretty damn impressive, like going 14-6 , tied for 3rd. We have been nowhere near a winning % of 70 in any of the first 6 years. Give me a indication that something special is even in the works. Always said that you do not make change to stay the same so firing him after this year would require another mediocre year and for Coyle to find a coach that is a top coach. If you have a ninth best coach in your conference , you will be on the average of 9th place finishes. Many AD's would have already pulled the plug, Coyle is waiting to see if this can be something special. He is not going to sit by and watch sub .500 records. He knows what excellence looks like. Instead of always going after my posts why not try and post what your standards are for being thrilled with big 10 standings and or deep tourney runs. Then it becomes a discussion of what peoples opinions are instead of personal insults, snide remarks and misquotes. What are your marks for excellence for a coach in this position ?
 

BarnBurner

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Think again. I would be in favor of a couple more years if he can do something pretty damn impressive, like going 14-6 , tied for 3rd. We have been nowhere near a winning % of 70 in any of the first 6 years. Give me a indication that something special is even in the works. Always said that you do not make change to stay the same so firing him after this year would require another mediocre year and for Coyle to find a coach that is a top coach. If you have a ninth best coach in your conference , you will be on the average of 9th place finishes. Many AD's would have already pulled the plug, Coyle is waiting to see if this can be something special. He is not going to sit by and watch sub .500 records. He knows what excellence looks like. Instead of always going after my posts why not try and post what your standards are for being thrilled with big 10 standings and or deep tourney runs. Then it becomes a discussion of what peoples opinions are instead of personal insults, snide remarks and misquotes. What are your marks for excellence for a coach in this position ?
I am not going after your posts. I am pointing out when you move the goalposts. Such as your post above.

You have said, multiple times before, that you are finished buying tickets, contributing, etc if this season does not yield built defined success. Yet you just said "with you" with respect to 2 years, unless the wheels fall off. And somehow it is my fault.

When I have some additional time, I will respond to the "standards" portion of your post. And - what do you mean by "coach in this position"?
 

builtbadgers

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I am not going after your posts. I am pointing out when you move the goalposts. Such as your post above.

You have said, multiple times before, that you are finished buying tickets, contributing, etc if this season does not yield built defined success. Yet you just said "with you" with respect to 2 years, unless the wheels fall off. And somehow it is my fault.

When I have some additional time, I will respond to the "standards" portion of your post. And - what do you mean by "coach in this position"?
If he is under .500 i am done buying tickets and giving support/donations. Coach in this position , means a coach with a Big 10 job, highly compensated. 40-70 AND ANOTHER SUB .500 year would be enough to end it for me.
 

alchemy2u

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If he is under .500 i am done buying tickets and giving support/donations. Coach in this position , means a coach with a Big 10 job, highly compensated. 40-70 AND ANOTHER SUB .500 year would be enough to end it for me.
Guess you would have canceled your Duke support after coach K first 3 years.


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builtbadgers

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Guess you would have canceled your Duke support after coach K first 3 years.


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No, look what he did in year 6 at his first power conference school. That got him to 40-44 after 6 years, not 70 losses in 6 years. Use whatever standard you like for you, mine is for me. You do not have to justify why you feel, why you think what you do. Not mocking you for it.
 

BarnBurner

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If he is under .500 i am done buying tickets and giving support/donations. Coach in this position , means a coach with a Big 10 job, highly compensated. 40-70 AND ANOTHER SUB .500 year would be enough to end it for me.
So then, this year is it, not 2 years as suggested above. Got it.
 
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