Chet Holmgren sounds off on MSHSL voting down shot clock proposal in MN HS

BleedGopher

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bizzle22

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He's not totally wrong, but honestly how often does it happen where a team holds the ball for 3-4 minutes? I see maybe 15 or so high school games per year, and the only time I ever remember seeing it was that Hopkins-Shakopee game. I think there may have been one other state tournament game where it happened too but I didn't see that one.

It would cost over a million dollars to put shot clocks at every school, plus each school would have to train and pay shot clock operators for every game. Just seems like a ton of money to be spending to fix something that only happens once in a blue moon. If it were a safety issue I would feel differently, but obviously it's not.

RJ talked about it a little bit on Twitter and he basically said that if they can gather up that kind of money it would be better spent on coaching salaries or coaching/referee education. I tend to agree with that take.
 

Keyser Söze

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He's not totally wrong, but honestly how often does it happen where a team holds the ball for 3-4 minutes? I see maybe 15 or so high school games per year, and the only time I ever remember seeing it was that Hopkins-Shakopee game. I think there may have been one other state tournament game where it happened too but I didn't see that one.

It would cost over a million dollars to put shot clocks at every school, plus each school would have to train and pay shot clock operators for every game. Just seems like a ton of money to be spending to fix something that only happens once in a blue moon. If it were a safety issue I would feel differently, but obviously it's not.

RJ talked about it a little bit on Twitter and he basically said that if they can gather up that kind of money it would be better spent on coaching salaries or coaching/referee education. I tend to agree with that take.
Generally speaking, not often. When it does happen, it's because one of the teams knows they're completely outmatched. I haven't been to any Minnehaha games, but given how good they are and how weak some of their competition is, I wouldn't be surprised if teams try that "strategy" against them a handful of times per season. It only takes one time to be completely sick of it.
 

bizzle22

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Generally speaking, not often. When it does happen, it's because one of the teams knows they're completely outmatched. I haven't been to any Minnehaha games, but given how good they are and how weak some of their competition is, I wouldn't be surprised if teams try that "strategy" against them a handful of times per season. It only takes one time to be completely sick of it.
I can understand that.

Does high school still have the 5 second rule where it is a violation for holding the ball for 5 seconds if you are closely guarded? Seems like there could be ways to speed a team up if they are trying this strategy. Press, or play high pressure man-to-man D? I get it that it could be frustrating if your team doesn't want to do those things, but isn't that part of what basketball is about -- adjusting your game to what your opponent is doing?
 

Gophs24

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He's not totally wrong, but honestly how often does it happen where a team holds the ball for 3-4 minutes? I see maybe 15 or so high school games per year, and the only time I ever remember seeing it was that Hopkins-Shakopee game. I think there may have been one other state tournament game where it happened too but I didn't see that one.

It would cost over a million dollars to put shot clocks at every school, plus each school would have to train and pay shot clock operators for every game. Just seems like a ton of money to be spending to fix something that only happens once in a blue moon. If it were a safety issue I would feel differently, but obviously it's not.

RJ talked about it a little bit on Twitter and he basically said that if they can gather up that kind of money it would be better spent on coaching salaries or coaching/referee education. I tend to agree with that take.
it happens may more than once in a blue moon...lesser teams stall all of the time...not to the extent of the Hopkins-Shakoppe game....but teams do hold on to the ball for more than 35 seconds quite often....plus how many times do you hear a coach yell out after a switch of the possession with less than 90 seconds to go in a half/game (1 SHOT)…...I am for sure in favor of adding a shot clock
 

Gophs24

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He's not totally wrong, but honestly how often does it happen where a team holds the ball for 3-4 minutes? I see maybe 15 or so high school games per year, and the only time I ever remember seeing it was that Hopkins-Shakopee game. I think there may have been one other state tournament game where it happened too but I didn't see that one.

It would cost over a million dollars to put shot clocks at every school, plus each school would have to train and pay shot clock operators for every game. Just seems like a ton of money to be spending to fix something that only happens once in a blue moon. If it were a safety issue I would feel differently, but obviously it's not.

RJ talked about it a little bit on Twitter and he basically said that if they can gather up that kind of money it would be better spent on coaching salaries or coaching/referee education. I tend to agree with that take.
where did you get the part where it would cost over a million dollars to add shot blocks at every school part? Not questioning you, im just wondering

and in that million dollars does it say if that number takes into account the schools that already have them installed?
 
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Keyser Söze

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I can understand that.

Does high school still have the 5 second rule where it is a violation for holding the ball for 5 seconds if you are closely guarded? Seems like there could be ways to speed a team up if they are trying this strategy. Press, or play high pressure man-to-man D? I get it that it could be frustrating if your team doesn't want to do those things, but isn't that part of what basketball is about -- adjusting your game to what your opponent is doing?
You can speed them up, but if they're intent on stalling, it can take a lot of energy, so teams usually just sit back and wait in my experience. It's a real treat for the fans.

I've only seen a team do that strategy for a full game twice. It's far more common for teams to hold the ball toward the end when they have the lead and try to make their possessions as long as possible. You can speed them up still, but it can be exhausting to try to force a turnover, and if you over do it, you can give them an easy backdoor cut. The last thing I want to see in a playoff game is 2+ minute possessions of keep away to try to maintain a lead.
 

short ornery norwegian

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I am pro shot clock. I just like a more up-tempo game.

and - maybe my biggest point in favor - if a team is down by a few points in the second half, they do not have to foul to stop the clock and get the ball back. play good defense for 35 seconds, and get the ball back without fouling or giving the opponent free-throw opportunities. Nothing I hate more than watching a good game for 30+ minutes, only to see it turn into free-throw derby down the stretch.

if you can't get off a decent shot within 35 seconds, you don't have much of an offense in my book.
 

Otis

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My high school team did it in overtime because we were seriously out of gas! Held the ball down to 15 seconds, worked it to our best player and he made the game winning basket with 5 seconds left.

Doing it for a whole game would be totally lame and stressful to do.
 

manderson1984

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I'll start this by saying I'm pro shot clock, but...

It's not the travesty that so many coaches and folks are making it out to be. MN plays a pretty good pace compared to a lot of other states (at least regionally). Also it's not the MSHSL's job to prepare kids for the "next level". MN kids are doing really well in colleges right now and I don't believe adding a shot clock would really effect it either way on that end. I just know the biggest issue for admin and ad's is the continual cost of someone running it (600-1000 a year) and finding people willing to do it. Rural areas are struggling to find two workers, let alone a 3rd. I think it'd be smart for strong advocates of the shot clock to run them during non conference games more and more. Eventually even some conferences in the metro may step up and say they are using it for conference games too. I think it'll be here eventually, but I do have bigger issues with the game then a shot clock currently.
 

bizzle22

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where did you get the part where it would cost over a million dollars to add shot blocks at every school part? Not questioning you, im just wondering

and in that million dollars does it say if that number takes into account the schools that already have them installed?
The articles about it say it costs $2.500 per shot clock including installation costs. Figure each court needs two. So it's $5k per school. There are 400+ schools that play basketball in the MSHSL. So it would be a little over $2M if none of them had shot clocks yet. Even if half of them already have shot clocks (which seems like it would be a really high estimate, but I don't have a clue what the actual number would be) it's still more than a million dollars.

And that only means one court at each school has shot clocks. It's unclear to me if this would apply to 9th grade/JV teams as well. But if it applies to to the lower teams as well then some schools might need more than one court equipped with shot clocks.

Throw in the added cost of having to train and pay someone to run the shot clock during the games, which is probably another thousand bucks per year. (Triple that if this is for 9th grade/JV as well.)

In a perfect world I'd say of course there should be shot clocks. But looking at the costs involved I can see why most athletic directors are not on board with it.
 

Gophs24

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The articles about it say it costs $2.500 per shot clock including installation costs. Figure each court needs two. So it's $5k per school. There are 400+ schools that play basketball in the MSHSL. So it would be a little over $2M if none of them had shot clocks yet. Even if half of them already have shot clocks (which seems like it would be a really high estimate, but I don't have a clue what the actual number would be) it's still more than a million dollars.

And that only means one court at each school has shot clocks. It's unclear to me if this would apply to 9th grade/JV teams as well. But if it applies to to the lower teams as well then some schools might need more than one court equipped with shot clocks.

Throw in the added cost of having to train and pay someone to run the shot clock during the games, which is probably another thousand bucks per year. (Triple that if this is for 9th grade/JV as well.)

In a perfect world I'd say of course there should be shot clocks. But looking at the costs involved I can see why most athletic directors are not on board with it.
this would only apply to varsity games...so basically 1 gym would have shot clocks

5k isn't a huge number per school. If the MSHSL had a brain they would just pass the dang thing and give schools 2 years to fundraise/ask for donations before its implemented and I would bet most all of them would have the shotclocks paid for.
You don't need to really train somebody to run the clock....I do it for our high school and if you have any common sense when it comes to basketball the training should last about 2 minutes.
I would guess you are about right with the 1,000 bucks a year to pay someone to run both girls and boys games as I think they get about 15 home games each or 30 total games. And at $25-$30 a game it would probably cost 750-1000.

as a basketball fan I wish we had shot clocks for every game....but of course there is a cost to get it done.
 

UpAndUnder43

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Things Chet likes:
Shot clocks and blocking shots
Run-on sentences

Things Chet does not care for:
Punctuation
Proofreading
 

theczar

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More evidence that if you can ball..ha ha academy will let you slide academics
 

UpAndUnder43

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More evidence that if you can ball..ha ha academy will let you slide academics
To be fair high school is not very difficult. Kids all over the country graduate high school, go D1 and are illiterate.

Just wish Chet used punctuation.
 

MennoSota

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Here's the solution. The NCAA and the NBA purchase all the shot clocks for all the schools in all their gyms and field houses so that they can continue to find great players.
Obviously the lack of a shot clock is hindering Minnesota athletes from being noticed by the NBA and top colleges. It's the reason why Tre Jones and Matthew Hurt ended up at an outpost dumpster fire like Duke. [emoji849][emoji57]
 

jovs

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I'd be okay with a say 40 or 45 shot clock, plenty of time to run an offense but not hold the ball forever.
 

Some guy

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Anyone who thinks the purpose of high school sports is to get kids college scholarships is pretty much clueless
 

Gopherholefan

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I think Chet is getting the MSHSL and his AAU coach confused. Haha

The MSHSL has never said that it is their job to get kids ready for the next level. Their mission statement is something about providing educational opportunities for kids through interscholastic activities. John Millea on his podcast with Souhan said the same thing when asked about the shot clock debate. The question was around the proposal for shot clocks saying it would help athletes get ready for the next level. Millea quickly pointed out that getting athletes ready for the next level has never been their job citing the data of how many kids actually go on to college athletics.
 

bottlebass

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I think Chet is getting the MSHSL and his AAU coach confused. Haha

The MSHSL has never said that it is their job to get kids ready for the next level. Their mission statement is something about providing educational opportunities for kids through interscholastic activities. John Millea on his podcast with Souhan said the same thing when asked about the shot clock debate. The question was around the proposal for shot clocks saying it would help athletes get ready for the next level. Millea quickly pointed out that getting athletes ready for the next level has never been their job citing the data of how many kids actually go on to college athletics.
Agreed, sports in highschool are about learning lessons to use later in life. I know this isn't basketball but I read the other day something like 2.5% of highschool football players play D1 football in college. That's pretty minuscule. Probably similar percentage of D1 players make the NFL (maybe 2%?). I'm in favor of a shot clock actually, but Chet's comments seem way off base.
 

go_gophers

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I agree that shot clocks would make the games more fun to watch (and coach, incidentally).

I think it’s ridiculous to think the MSHSL’s job is to get kids scholarships. Maybe that’s how he sees it because he is only acquainted with his own situation. The vast majority of kids will not play beyond high school.

I also think that some are being really generous and/or presumptuous with other people’s money. Rural districts have constant financial squeezes and literally can’t afford it. Donations? Maybe. MSHSL? Doubtful. NCAA/NBA? Don’t bet on it. If they bought them for Minnesota, 49 other states would come calling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

short ornery norwegian

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At the same time, High schools find money for things they want. And the vast majority of schools have booster clubs that fund-raise for projects, like new wrestling mats, etc. A lot of schools in my neck of the woods have added new high-tech scoreboards with video displays - in many cases, funded through annual donations from local businesses. In the city where I live, I know a local business that would probably donate funds for shot clocks if asked. (and they make a darn good zero-turn radius mower....)

So $5,000 or $10,000 for shot clocks is doable. Cost alone should not be the deciding factor. I would rather have this decided on whether it's good for the sport of basketball.

(and speaking of spending other people's money, what about those cheap Pohlads..........)
 

Zeppelin Gopher

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When it does happen, it's because one of the teams knows they're completely outmatched. I haven't been to any Minnehaha games, but given how good they are and how weak some of their competition is, I wouldn't be surprised if teams try that "strategy" against them a handful of times per season. It only takes one time to be completely sick of it.
This doesn't make sense.

To be even have the option of holding the ball, a team has to be facing a passive zone defense that will not extend. Minnehaha plays a high pressure defense so this wouldn't be a possibility against them. As do most of the high level MN HS teams.
 

Zeppelin Gopher

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I'd be okay with a say 40 or 45 shot clock, plenty of time to run an offense but not hold the ball forever.
I tend to agree with this. Very pro shot clock, but 40 seconds would be fine for me.
 

Desertbobcat

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He's not totally wrong, but honestly how often does it happen where a team holds the ball for 3-4 minutes? I see maybe 15 or so high school games per year, and the only time I ever remember seeing it was that Hopkins-Shakopee game. I think there may have been one other state tournament game where it happened too but I didn't see that one.

It would cost over a million dollars to put shot clocks at every school, plus each school would have to train and pay shot clock operators for every game. Just seems like a ton of money to be spending to fix something that only happens once in a blue moon. If it were a safety issue I would feel differently, but obviously it's not.

RJ talked about it a little bit on Twitter and he basically said that if they can gather up that kind of money it would be better spent on coaching salaries or coaching/referee education. I tend to agree with that take.
Not even close to a million dollars.
 

Herd

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Last year, I was at my son’s 2A game in the east metro. Our coach changed defenses with 10 minutes left in the half. The opposing coach was offended by the zone defense, and told his kid to hold the ball. Our coach in turn told his players to back off. The ball was not bounced for 8 minutes as both coaches dug in. It was a ridiculous awkward situation. It didn’t help that one team was all black students, fans and coach, and the other mostly white students, fans and coach. A lot of awkwardness and poor integrity were involved.

Not having a shot clock, very stupid and short sighted decision by the league.
 

manderson1984

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Last year, I was at my son’s 2A game in the east metro. Our coach changed defenses with 10 minutes left in the half. The opposing coach was offended by the zone defense, and told his kid to hold the ball. Our coach in turn told his players to back off. The ball was not bounced for 8 minutes as both coaches dug in. It was a ridiculous awkward situation. It didn’t help that one team was all black students, fans and coach, and the other mostly white students, fans and coach. A lot of awkwardness and poor integrity were involved.

Not having a shot clock, very stupid and short sighted decision by the league.
As a former coach I've never ran the strategy, but I've also never been against a coaches right to do so. The team in the lead has earned a right to dictate some pace and play. If a team is sitting in a pack in 2-3 zone and losing, the coach is not a coward for making a team come out and defend them. MSHSL has a closely guarded rule to not allow a team to stall.
 

UpAndUnder43

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If you don't like a team stalling, then force them out of the stall.

I saw a hall of fame high school coach at ROCORI get down 16-4 early in the game vs. Nate Wolters. He told his kids to hold the ball so they wouldn't lose by as much. They were down a dozen and stalled. Lost by 35ish once the coach with the lead got annoyed and decided to play pressure defense, which turned into a full court press. Was embarrassing for all involved.

But thats like 1 game out of 1000s
 
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