Black lives matter

Costa Rican Gopher

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Thinking these 2 loonies were justified in killing him is about as dumb as thinking the victim was just out for a jog.
Do you believe it's possible he was not "justified" killing him, but also believe he could have a legitimate legal argument that this was self defense?
 

stocker08

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Do you believe it's possible he was not "justified" killing him, but also believe he could have a legitimate legal argument that this was self defense?
There is no self defense case to be had. Self defense is a one way street. The fact is....these two clowns were the aggressors. They had loaded weapons and were attempting to control Arbery with no legal basis to do so.

Had he attacked with no provocation, self defense would likely hold. But even in cases like bar fights....if someone accidently gets killed....manslaughter applies. There is no self defense claim. Even less so if a knife or gun is brought into the picture.

Mistakes happen. Whoops. Serves these idiots right.
 

Costa Rican Gopher

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My take on the video:

Context: Cops find Arbery sleeping in his car, parked up on the grass, in a public park at 1:59pm.

Video:

- The video time line is confusing because it opens at the end of the video, then cuts to the beginning. Follow the time stamps in the upper right hand corner for clarity.

- 13:59 Arbery apparently is woken up, gets out of his car, and walks directly toward the cops. I immediately cringe at the way Arbery handled this. I'm a middle aged White guy who drives a Honda & I would NEVER approach the cops like that. The cop stayed cool, and politely asked for Arbery's ID.

- 14:00 Arbery gives the officer his ID, who politely says he'll "be right back" & heads to his squad car.

- 14:01 As the cop gets out of his car Arbery verbally unloads on him demanding "why you fuqin with me?", to which the cop said "keep your hand out of your pocket", to which Arbery yells "I ain't got shit on me, why the fuq you fuqing with me fo'!?", the cop sounds like he's getting rattled (imo) and tries to take command saying "I'll tell you why I'm here", but Arbery interrupts demanding "why!?. Why!"

14:02 Arbery's told he's being questioned because of drug activity in the park, and pretty much explodes on the cop verbally at that point while stepping into the cop's space in an aggressive manner. The cop is starting to lose control to Arbery, imo & commands Arbery to turn around and grab the trunk of the car. Arbery gets resistant, saying he didn't do anything, and the cop tells him "you're coming up on me and making me nervous.".

Gap of tape between 14:02 and 14:04

14:04 Arbery has decided he's going into his car to get something, the cops tell him not to reach for anything in the car, he's making moves toward the car anyway, when one of the cops panics, and starts tazing him. Weird thing is it does nothing to Arbery. There's just an awkward tazing sound. It'd actually be kind of funny, as Arbery looks around confused, if it weren't so sad what cowards these cops were. There was no reason to taze him at THIS point.

Then Arbery was released...

My bottom line: The cops had every right to check out Arbery. He was parked up on the grass, asleep behind the wheel of his car, in a public park at 2pm. Arbery immediately walked right at the cops. Not a crime, but nothing a normal person would do. When the cop got out of the car after running his license Arbery looked to escalate the situation by yelling profanities at the cops and, intentionally encroached their space. They acted like Keystone cops, bumbling around scared of their own shadows. Arbery looks like an aggressive dummy, and the cops look look like scared pansies.
 

GopherJake

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My take on the video:

Context: Cops find Arbery sleeping in his car, parked up on the grass, in a public park at 1:59pm.

Video:

- The video time line is confusing because it opens at the end of the video, then cuts to the beginning. Follow the time stamps in the upper right hand corner for clarity.

- 13:59 Arbery apparently is woken up, gets out of his car, and walks directly toward the cops. I immediately cringe at the way Arbery handled this. I'm a middle aged White guy who drives a Honda & I would NEVER approach the cops like that. The cop stayed cool, and politely asked for Arbery's ID.

- 14:00 Arbery gives the officer his ID, who politely says he'll "be right back" & heads to his squad car.

- 14:01 As the cop gets out of his car Arbery verbally unloads on him demanding "why you fuqin with me?", to which the cop said "keep your hand out of your pocket", to which Arbery yells "I ain't got shit on me, why the fuq you fuqing with me fo'!?", the cop sounds like he's getting rattled (imo) and tries to take command saying "I'll tell you why I'm here", but Arbery interrupts demanding "why!?. Why!"

14:02 Arbery's told he's being questioned because of drug activity in the park, and pretty much explodes on the cop verbally at that point while stepping into the cop's space in an aggressive manner. The cop is starting to lose control to Arbery, imo & commands Arbery to turn around and grab the trunk of the car. Arbery gets resistant, saying he didn't do anything, and the cop tells him "you're coming up on me and making me nervous.".

Gap of tape between 14:02 and 14:04

14:04 Arbery has decided he's going into his car to get something, the cops tell him not to reach for anything in the car, he's making moves toward the car anyway, when one of the cops panics, and starts tazing him. Weird thing is it does nothing to Arbery. There's just an awkward tazing sound. It'd actually be kind of funny, as Arbery looks around confused, if it weren't so sad what cowards these cops were. There was no reason to taze him at THIS point.

Then Arbery was released...

My bottom line: The cops had every right to check out Arbery. He was parked up on the grass, asleep behind the wheel of his car, in a public park at 2pm. Arbery immediately walked right at the cops. Not a crime, but nothing a normal person would do. When the cop got out of the car after running his license Arbery looked to escalate the situation by yelling profanities at the cops and, intentionally encroached their space. They acted like Keystone cops, bumbling around scared of their own shadows. Arbery looks like an aggressive dummy, and the cops look look like scared pansies.
Don’t care.
 

MplsGopher

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1) no felony occurred in the first place. No burglary took place, no destruction of property, no trespassing with intent to commit crimes. These aren't automatically felonies anyway, unless there was reasonable suspicion that the trespassing was done with intent to commit a felony (videos don't support that in the slightest). Therefore, the citizen's arrest was never legally justified in the first place.

2) self-defense (more accurate legal context in Georgia is called "stand your ground") was nullified the moment that they were the initiators of aggression/conflict. At the least, they initiated conflict with their false citizen's arrest (not justified, as no felony was committed). But I think it's going to come out that the prosecution will try to prove that Arbery did not rush the gunman until after he was shot the first time, which was when he was attempting to run around and away from the truck in his path. In that case, quite obviously, there is no stand your ground in the slightest.

3) the video absolutely and entirely disproves the idea that Arbery would've rushed someone confronting him with a weapon/gun, no matter what, and that he therefore is at fault for getting shot. Was he 100% cooperative with the police, no. But he in no way made overly aggressive/violent movements/gestures towards them. I think he was very annoyed and angry over being questioned by police, for nothing more than being a black man.

4) @saintpaulguy (and everyone else) you have to do you, and I know you will. I'd be a hypocrite without saying that first, as is easy to see in this (and other) threads. But it's quite obvious that goldteam is just here to drag down anyone who will play with him, with a combination of strawmen and playing stupid. He is very adapt at endlessly asking absurd questions that maximally have nothing to do with the issue and are not easy to answer. That isn't intelligence, it's the peak of trolling. I think you recognize all this. So you should of course feel free to post in whatever way gives you entertainment. But, yeah ... think I will be limiting my further interactions with gt going forward.
 

saintpaulguy

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I was in the second batch of carry permits processed in Ramsey County. If there is one thing that the instructor emphasized more than any other, is that the gun is to keep you alive. It isn't a junior G-man badge. If you do use the gun, even in self defense, your reward will be that you are alive, but you are still likely to be in some very sticky legal complications. It may take years to clear your name, and thousands of dollars, and you may still go to jail. You may lose your job, and be unemployable, even if you win. See officer Yanez from St. Anthony.

Community do gooders out fighting crime should look at this case and wonder if it is all worth the trouble. Maybe take up fishing. Be the eyes and ears of the police, let them do their work.

Civil liberties apply to everyone, not just the perfect. Some people seem to think that just because you have a gun, you can make someone your bitch. That's what the bad guys do.
 

Goldteam

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I watched the video. He has a massive temper and overreacts.

I SAW THIS WITH MY OWN EYES! YOU DID, TOO!
 

Ogee Oglethorpe

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I was in the second batch of carry permits processed in Ramsey County. If there is one thing that the instructor emphasized more than any other, is that the gun is to keep you alive. It isn't a junior G-man badge. If you do use the gun, even in self defense, your reward will be that you are alive, but you are still likely to be in some very sticky legal complications. It may take years to clear your name, and thousands of dollars, and you may still go to jail. You may lose your job, and be unemployable, even if you win. See officer Yanez from St. Anthony.

Community do gooders out fighting crime should look at this case and wonder if it is all worth the trouble. Maybe take up fishing. Be the eyes and ears of the police, let them do their work.

Civil liberties apply to everyone, not just the perfect. Some people seem to think that just because you have a gun, you can make someone your bitch. That's what the bad guys do.
No doubt about it. I have to admit, I was a little surprised at how much I learned in the CCW class, really good information on basically NOT using the concealed weapon if at all possible. If your instructor is worth their salt, they cover a lot of really good information and not just going through the motions.
 

stocker08

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I was in the second batch of carry permits processed in Ramsey County. If there is one thing that the instructor emphasized more than any other, is that the gun is to keep you alive. It isn't a junior G-man badge. If you do use the gun, even in self defense, your reward will be that you are alive, but you are still likely to be in some very sticky legal complications. It may take years to clear your name, and thousands of dollars, and you may still go to jail. You may lose your job, and be unemployable, even if you win. See officer Yanez from St. Anthony.

Community do gooders out fighting crime should look at this case and wonder if it is all worth the trouble. Maybe take up fishing. Be the eyes and ears of the police, let them do their work.

Civil liberties apply to everyone, not just the perfect. Some people seem to think that just because you have a gun, you can make someone your bitch. That's what the bad guys do.
Sounds like an excellent instructor.
 

Goldteam

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Now the cops have him stealing a 65 inch screen TV.

Dam cops!
 

saintpaulguy

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65 incher? Well anything over 50 And the law of the internet says you have it coming. Even three years later.
 

Goldteam

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65 incher? Well anything over 50 And the law of the internet says you have it coming. Even three years later.
He was just a jogger! I'm sure of it.

And no, I do not believe he deserved to kill himself.
 

Spoofin

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I’m actually glad I watched that. Dude had both a)no idea what TV they were talking about; and b)a receipt for said TV. Good stuff.
 

saintpaulguy

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I don’t think anybody here is arguing the just a jogger bit. You seem pretty concerned about his past, though. Attempting to steal a TV three years ago does not raise trespassing to a felony, even assuming anyone knew about it.
 

saintpaulguy

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I’m actually glad I watched that. Dude had both a)no idea what TV they were talking about; and b)a receipt for said TV. Good stuff.
Was actually good police work, miles ahead of the Taser duo.
 

Goldteam

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I don’t think anybody here is arguing the just a jogger bit. You seem pretty concerned about his past, though. Attempting to steal a TV three years ago does not raise trespassing to a felony, even assuming anyone knew about it.
I'm concerned why he was 9 or 10 miles away from home, supposedly jogging. I'm curious what he was doing there. I'm surprised his defense hasn't already told us. Oh wait, they have told us. He was jogging.

You see, I don't think he was just looking in a construction site. Let's wait and see.

You don't seem concerned at all that the national story is still he was hunted down while jogging. We all have our different concerns I guess.
 

MplsGopher

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Yep, there is a ton of evidence, from video taken at the actual construction site that nothing was stolen or damaged. Oh and by the way, was that actually Arbery in those videos at the construction site?? Looks like some other black guy to me, but to bigots all black people look the same.

Where was the felony? #NoFelony
 

MplsGopher

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I see that they have now also arrested the dingleberry who was the cameraman in this farce.

Doubt charges will stick to him, in the end. But glad they can still make an example out of him by arresting and charging him.
 

bigtenchamps1899

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they didn’t just arrest the cameraman, they charged him with murder. not complicit or an accessory, but what they’ve arrested him for is being basically responsible for pulling the trigger himself.

this tells me one of two things. they found something on his phone that makes him look really bad, or the da using the old throw the shit against the wall and see what sticks.

either way, there is still more to the picture that we don’t know and it’s important to continue to hold off judgement.
 

bigtenchamps1899

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I was in the second batch of carry permits processed in Ramsey County. If there is one thing that the instructor emphasized more than any other, is that the gun is to keep you alive. It isn't a junior G-man badge. If you do use the gun, even in self defense, your reward will be that you are alive, but you are still likely to be in some very sticky legal complications. It may take years to clear your name, and thousands of dollars, and you may still go to jail. You may lose your job, and be unemployable, even if you win. See officer Yanez from St. Anthony.

Community do gooders out fighting crime should look at this case and wonder if it is all worth the trouble. Maybe take up fishing. Be the eyes and ears of the police, let them do their work.

Civil liberties apply to everyone, not just the perfect. Some people seem to think that just because you have a gun, you can make someone your bitch. That's what the bad guys do.
among cops themselves there is disagreement about what one’s duty is while off duty

i remember when i was a reserve i was eating dinner at the hospital cafeteria (because when you work graves, the hospital cafeteria is the best place to eat). and these two cops were arguing about what they would do if they encountered a crime while off duty. the one said that he would act and the other said that he would be the best witness he could be.

at the time i though “of course a cop should step in” but since then i have come to the second guy’s understanding. for a number of reasons. the first is that i’m not in uniform when i am off duty. the uniform and badge immediately identify one as law enforcement. in civilian clothes and in a stressful situation, even having a badge on the belt or around the neck is going to be hard to distinguish.

second is that when i’m off duty, i don’t have all my tools. i have my words, my hands and my gun. if someone does no comply when i have my duty belt on, i have options. i have my radio to call for backup, oc spray, taser, baton. not to mention my bodycam. if i have my gun, handcuffs and hands, things can get ramped nip so quickly that i’d need to go to lethal force. it may be justified, but in the civil case, the lawyer is gonna say it wasn’t.

the third is because i am usually with my family. and i am always gonna put the safety of my family first when i am off duty.

the fourth is a consideration that all lawful carriers should have thought about before carrying a gun. if you have to use your gun lawfully (take it out or fire it) you and i aren’t gonna look much different to the average citizen than the active shooter or the criminal, no matter how much i say i’m a cop. in those stressful situations, people get tunnel vision. and then you’re likely gonna have police responding to an active shooter situation and my description is gonna be the description of the active shooter. or there’s gonna be another lawful carrier who sees me with a gun standing over a body and believe that im the bad guy and he’s gonna shoot me. so if you carry a gun and you believe that you are gonna stop a crime from happening with it, you should not only expect legal ramifications (whether you’re a cop or a citizen), but you should be prepared to be shot yourself.

now, i believe that there are definitely occasions that i would act in civilian clothes. but it is going to be wholly dependent on the situation. in most cases, i’m going to be the best witness i can be and protect my loved ones. because as someone once said, if you are carrying a gun, every fight is a gunfight.
 

saintpaulguy

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among cops themselves there is disagreement about what one’s duty is while off duty

i remember when i was a reserve i was eating dinner at the hospital cafeteria (because when you work graves, the hospital cafeteria is the best place to eat). and these two cops were arguing about what they would do if they encountered a crime while off duty. the one said that he would act and the other said that he would be the best witness he could be.

at the time i though “of course a cop should step in” but since then i have come to the second guy’s understanding. for a number of reasons. the first is that i’m not in uniform when i am off duty. the uniform and badge immediately identify one as law enforcement. in civilian clothes and in a stressful situation, even having a badge on the belt or around the neck is going to be hard to distinguish.

second is that when i’m off duty, i don’t have all my tools. i have my words, my hands and my gun. if someone does no comply when i have my duty belt on, i have options. i have my radio to call for backup, oc spray, taser, baton. not to mention my bodycam. if i have my gun, handcuffs and hands, things can get ramped nip so quickly that i’d need to go to lethal force. it may be justified, but in the civil case, the lawyer is gonna say it wasn’t.

the third is because i am usually with my family. and i am always gonna put the safety of my family first when i am off duty.

the fourth is a consideration that all lawful carriers should have thought about before carrying a gun. if you have to use your gun lawfully (take it out or fire it) you and i aren’t gonna look much different to the average citizen than the active shooter or the criminal, no matter how much i say i’m a cop. in those stressful situations, people get tunnel vision. and then you’re likely gonna have police responding to an active shooter situation and my description is gonna be the description of the active shooter. or there’s gonna be another lawful carrier who sees me with a gun standing over a body and believe that im the bad guy and he’s gonna shoot me. so if you carry a gun and you believe that you are gonna stop a crime from happening with it, you should not only expect legal ramifications (whether you’re a cop or a citizen), but you should be prepared to be shot yourself.

now, i believe that there are definitely occasions that i would act in civilian clothes. but it is going to be wholly dependent on the situation. in most cases, i’m going to be the best witness i can be and protect my loved ones. because as someone once said, if you are carrying a gun, every fight is a gunfight.
Well written and informative. Thanks.
 

saintpaulguy

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they didn’t just arrest the cameraman, they charged him with murder. not complicit or an accessory, but what they’ve arrested him for is being basically responsible for pulling the trigger himself.

this tells me one of two things. they found something on his phone that makes him look really bad, or the da using the old throw the shit against the wall and see what sticks.

either way, there is still more to the picture that we don’t know and it’s important to continue to hold off judgement.
My guess is it is the latter, it is aggressive prosecution. The only thing I can think of, is if there is some video where he implicates himself in potentially illegal detention, like "We are going to capture this guy and scare him" or some such.
 

Goldteam

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My guess is it is the latter, it is aggressive prosecution. The only thing I can think of, is if there is some video where he implicates himself in potentially illegal detention, like "We are going to capture this guy and scare him" or some such.
This whole board was praising this guy. Remember, thank God someone filmed this or the McMichaels would walk away free.

Do you not remember this?

This guy was hero to many on this board.
 

MplsGopher

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Saw on the news tonight the reason they’re charging him with murder is they believe that he used his car to cut off Arbery’s escape path multiple times.

Absolutely he is every bit as guilty, if so.
 

saintpaulguy

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This whole board was praising this guy. Remember, thank God someone filmed this or the McMichaels would walk away free.

Do you not remember this?

This guy was hero to many on this board.
I heard he nicked a Charleston Chew from the five and dime in 1974.

If you want to quote me, do so. McMichael will walk because of this video, which is why McMichael encouraged its anonymous release. Turns out that being a friend of McMichael comes with some trouble. The guy will likely be OK, but I’m not gonna stay awake worrying about the fellow who volunteered to to be the curator of the civilian detention highlight film and then slipped the possibly exonerating film anonymously to a radio station.
 
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