BarnBurner's list of young coaches who could achieve faster than legends.

Otis

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Since our 2020 recruiting thread has been gummed up lately with this subject I thought it appropriate to make a thread just for the topic.

Now keep the anti-Pitino talk out of the recruiting threads please!!!!!

By the way, Shocker Richard is not as good as all-time great coaches like Wooden, Knight or even Brad Stevens. There's a reason those guys are revered. How does he compare to his old man?
 

builtbadgers

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Thank you for doing this. I played a role in hijacking that thread. My apologies, no excuses.
 

alchemy2u

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Since our 2020 recruiting thread has been gummed up lately with this subject I thought it appropriate to make a thread just for the topic.

Now keep the anti-Pitino talk out of the recruiting threads please!!!!!

By the way, Shocker Richard is not as good as all-time great coaches like Wooden, Knight or even Brad Stevens. There's a reason those guys are revered. How does he compare to his old man?
Good idea, but Pitino gets attacked in so many threads by the same handful of posters that it is hard not to respond. I have been guilty of many responses that go off topic.


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builtbadgers

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Good idea, but Pitino gets attacked in so many threads by the same handful of posters that it is hard not to respond. I have been guilty of many responses that go off topic.


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They are not all attacks. Posts that deal in facts of record or lack of accomplishments, or poor efficiency and seasons of mediocre defense are observations based on evidence.
 

BarnBurner

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They are not all attacks. Posts that deal in facts of record or lack of accomplishments, or poor efficiency and seasons of mediocre defense are observations based on evidence.
Builtbadgers’s, it is very very clear you do not think rp is a good coach.
You state it over and over and over while at the same time reminding gopherhole
Of your generosity to Mn bb.

I have challenged you many times to name those badgerbuilt approved young coaches that
Are really going to be home run hires.

No names to this point.

Lay it out built.
 

Otis

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Sorry Barn Burner, This should have said BuiltBadgers list...…...
 

BarnBurner

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Sorry Barn Burner, This should have said BuiltBadgers list...…...
Not to worry Otis.

Built doesnt like the word "list".

So now we go with names. Multiple names.
 

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thanks Otis. he’s not young, but I like Jay Pivec and would like to see what he could do at that level.
 

alchemy2u

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They are not all attacks. Posts that deal in facts of record or lack of accomplishments, or poor efficiency and seasons of mediocre defense are observations based on evidence.
But there are more facts that you are not taking into consideration. Having serious injuries to key players that make them start a walk on at PG typically impacts your conference record. Of course it falls back to the errors in recruiting that created such a thin roster. But even in those very bad seasons that you repeatedly hold as the examples of being a poor coach, there was some examples of excellent coaching. Us Pitino backers are not just full of promise and false hope. We have seen many examples of good player development, good game planning, good coaching, good recruiting, learning from mistakes, etc... Pitino has grown and is a much better overall head coach than he was when he first arrived at the U. If he can just get a couple more of the local “stars” to build the program, it will accelerate his jump up to the top of the B1G. There is no doubt in my mind that Pitino will be eventually be in the B1G conference mix every year.


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BarnBurner

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Re reading builts post. He said he never said there was a list.

Then built turns around and says any good AD has a list handy at all times.

Built.
 

dpodoll68

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thanks Otis. he’s not young, but I like Jay Pivec and would like to see what he could do at that level.
For a Big Ten head coaching job, you want to hire a guy who retired a year ago from his position as a Division III assistant? K.
 

touchdownvikings

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But there are more facts that you are not taking into consideration. Having serious injuries to key players that make them start a walk on at PG typically impacts your conference record. Of course it falls back to the errors in recruiting that created such a thin roster. But even in those very bad seasons that you repeatedly hold as the examples of being a poor coach, there was some examples of excellent coaching. Us Pitino backers are not just full of promise and false hope. We have seen many examples of good player development, good game planning, good coaching, good recruiting, learning from mistakes, etc... Pitino has grown and is a much better overall head coach than he was when he first arrived at the U. If he can just get a couple more of the local “stars” to build the program, it will accelerate his jump up to the top of the B1G. There is no doubt in my mind that Pitino will be eventually be in the B1G conference mix every year.


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Preach. This is 100% correct.

I support Pitino. Because I've already articulated the reasons for my support several times, I'll spare all of you. (Unless anyone wants to hear it again.)
 

builtbadgers

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But there are more facts that you are not taking into consideration. Having serious injuries to key players that make them start a walk on at PG typically impacts your conference record. Of course it falls back to the errors in recruiting that created such a thin roster. But even in those very bad seasons that you repeatedly hold as the examples of being a poor coach, there was some examples of excellent coaching. Us Pitino backers are not just full of promise and false hope. We have seen many examples of good player development, good game planning, good coaching, good recruiting, learning from mistakes, etc... Pitino has grown and is a much better overall head coach than he was when he first arrived at the U. If he can just get a couple more of the local “stars” to build the program, it will accelerate his jump up to the top of the B1G. There is no doubt in my mind that Pitino will be eventually be in the B1G conference mix every year.


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Just a difference of opinion, no big deal. Does that include Big 10 titles ? How long will you wait ?
 

builtbadgers

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Re reading builts post. He said he never said there was a list.

Then built turns around and says any good AD has a list handy at all times.

Built.
Not a AD BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANT is how you go about the hire. We have hired very poorly for 50 years. Terrible AD's until now. Coyle had a awesome approach to hiring Fleck. I spoke to a list AD's have not my own. Butler did it, WSU did it UVA did it. Are you thinking that Pitino is a top 5 coach in his conference. It is fine by me if you think so. I am not hurling insults or digs at people with different opinions. My past involvement in this business has been strictly what do you win. Even scouting now either advance or prospect it is about specific, time proven intangibles. In a business of my own we recognized the best young lawyers by talent and fit and then it was easy to see where the best results came from. I never said he was a poor coach but there is not any indication of greatness and that is the only thing i shot for. Just my opinion.
 

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Names built. Your personal favorites that will be the next Boeheim. Thompson.

Tell us the specifics about coyles approach
 

builtbadgers

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Names built. Your personal favorites that will be the next Boeheim. Thompson.

Tell us the specifics about coyles approach
Bennett is well on his way, Beard is well on his way. Stack is going to do very well. Fife is someone i really like. Rhoades i like a ton. Do you think Pitino will be ? How long will you give him to win the conference ? It is ok to be wrong, i will miss on some of my names but i will not wait 10 years for a conference title. Early conference titles are a great forecast of long term success.

Teague was a slimeball with poor abilities. He was Villa 7 driven a wasted his time there. That is not where he got Pitino whom was not part of Villa. He could have had Buzz Williams who had the backing of several hall of fame guys. He went for winning the press conference which is a fatal error because it is fan driven not goal driven. UW did not win the press conference on Bennett, Ryan, Gard. UVA did not win the press conference with Tony Bennett, Fans wanted Tubby ! They got the grand slam guy on the backing of K, Knight,Jerry West, Izzo who all knew what he already was. Nova did not win the press conference on Wright but they had the courage to hire the right guy. Smart, tough, charismatic as hell. All backed by basketball people. Coyle got endorsements from the best in the business on Fleck. Time will tell. Pitino could do it here but he better do it damn soon. That ability to do something big in the 1st 5 years is a great predictor of success and proven historically. How long do you give someone to win the conference before you know they can not ? I said over and over i support this year.
 

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Built: The part you don’t seem to acknowledge are the different paths many of your chosen coaches took. They did not get a Big Ten coaching opportunity or conference equivalent opportunity until they were much more experienced and as a result older.

Richard is learning on the job. Is that his fault? The signs you look for, such as Richard’s team defense not comparing to Bennett. But, there is more than one way to win. It’s not the only way to play.

As others have said you ignore the circumstances that derail seasons. We are all in agreement roster construction has needed improvements. But circumstances beyond the norm have sabotaged Richard multiple years.

Does Richard seem to out coach Matt Painter in your assessment? Did he have a game plan to shut down Wisconsin? Do we pretty often get a good shot out of timeouts? Just a couple signs imo that say he is not in over his head.

Richard is not a finished product but as I illustrated previously, he has shown signs he has elite potential. You are stuck on certain bench marks...winning the conference early. For me, a similar benchmark was winning the NIT Championship after cobbling a roster together in September because he was left with 4 or 5 roster candidates. The Big Ten Coach of the Year? Can’t that be somebodies benchmark?
 

builtbadgers

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Built: The part you don’t seem to acknowledge are the different paths many of your chosen coaches took. They did not get a Big Ten coaching opportunity or conference equivalent opportunity until they were much more experienced and as a result older.

Richard is learning on the job. Is that his fault? The signs you look for, such as Richard’s team defense not comparing to Bennett. But, there is more than one way to win. It’s not the only way to play.

As others have said you ignore the circumstances that derail seasons. We are all in agreement roster construction has needed improvements. But circumstances beyond the norm have sabotaged Richard multiple years.

Does Richard seem to out coach Matt Painter in your assessment? Did he have a game plan to shut down Wisconsin? Do we pretty often get a good shot out of timeouts? Just a couple signs imo that say he is not in over his head.

Richard is not a finished product but as I illustrated previously, he has shown signs he has elite potential. You are stuck on certain bench marks...winning the conference early. For me, a similar benchmark was winning the NIT Championship after cobbling a roster together in September because he was left with 4 or 5 roster candidates. The Big Ten Coach of the Year? Can’t that be somebodies benchmark?
Excellent take. You have your benchmarks, your opinion and i have my benchmarks. Other coaches had catastrophic injuries that derailed national title hopes. How long do you think it is worth waiting for elite potential to be reached ? Or perhaps some will be thrilled if after 10 years there are 3 years over .500 in the conference with one 3rd or 4th place finish and a sweet 16 in there. That is not what i expect. To me the Big 10 coach of the year award is fine but in my context it was done following the disaster he engineered . To me, win the conference , win the award. I just see it differently. Just asking, will you wait 6 more years and be OK without a single conference title ? I am cheering for him to do it now, this year. As far as comparing to Bennett, i do not even think anyone would expect that. But as it pertains to how to win big check out the efficiency ratings for both offense and defense of the top 20 teams for the last half dozen years. Those numbers always translate exactly how well you play and how well your coached.
 

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Built: Just to be clear. I would be fine with Virginia’s Bennett or Chris Beard as Gopher Head Coach. It’s not likely to happen.

One last comment...(ha) you like no nonsense, disciplinarian type coaches from observation. Richard is maybe more Steve Kerr like in his approach. Both types of personalities can win but I’d maybe agree the task master is going to possibly have more consistent results? Bottom line ...if Richard gets some players I think he is good enough to win. Not everybody can win, even with talent.
 

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Bennett is well on his way, Beard is well on his way. Stack is going to do very well. Fife is someone i really like. Rhoades i like a ton. Do you think Pitino will be ? How long will you give him to win the conference ? It is ok to be wrong, i will miss on some of my names but i will not wait 10 years for a conference title. Early conference titles are a great forecast of long term success.

Teague was a slimeball with poor abilities. He was Villa 7 driven a wasted his time there. That is not where he got Pitino whom was not part of Villa. He could have had Buzz Williams who had the backing of several hall of fame guys. He went for winning the press conference which is a fatal error because it is fan driven not goal driven. UW did not win the press conference on Bennett, Ryan, Gard. UVA did not win the press conference with Tony Bennett, Fans wanted Tubby ! They got the grand slam guy on the backing of K, Knight,Jerry West, Izzo who all knew what he already was. Nova did not win the press conference on Wright but they had the courage to hire the right guy. Smart, tough, charismatic as hell. All backed by basketball people. Coyle got endorsements from the best in the business on Fleck. Time will tell. Pitino could do it here but he better do it damn soon. That ability to do something big in the 1st 5 years is a great predictor of success and proven historically. How long do you give someone to win the conference before you know they can not ? I said over and over i support this year.
Built, your judgment of Pitino is getting comical!

Pitino (37 yrs old) was thrown directly into the fired and had to learn on the job in the B1G, a very unforgiving situation. You are not holding your "guys" to the same standards. Many of those coaches that you listed got to learn to be a HC at the DIII or CC/JC levels, not anywhere near the B1G level. Here is a quick summary of the guys you listed. They may all be very good coaches, but not held up to the same standards that you expected out of Pitino.

Coach Beard: 46 yrs old, first became a HC at Fort Scott Community College, Seminole State JC, went back to being an assistant for ten years under Bobby Knight, then was a HC on an ABA team, then McMurry University and then Angelo State before he got his big break at Arkansas – Little Rock and now Texas Tech.

Coach Fife: 40 yrs old, His HC experience amounts 6 years at IPFW in the Summit conference where he had a 0.458 winning percentage with only 2 winning seasons! I guess his claim to fame is that he was an assistant at Indiana and is currently an assistant at MSU.

Coach Rhoades: 46 yrs old, His HC experience was 10 years at DIII Randolph-Macon where he started winning the Old Dominion Conference title his 3rd thru 6th years and had an overall 0.722 winning percentage. That allowed him to become an assistant at VCU for 4 years and then the HC at Rice for 3 years where he had an 0.475 winning percentage. He is now the HC at VCU with two winning seasons.

Coach Bennett: 50 yrs old, has been a star as a HC with only his last year at WSU and his first two years at Virginia being near 500 seasons.

It is obvious that you disliked Teague and do not respect the way he hired our BB coach. It seems like you are letting that influence your opinion of Pitino. You didn't like that other "more qualified" candidates were passed over, you didn't like that he was very inexperienced, you think he was hired "because of his name", you didn't like that the normal channels (like talking to you) weren't followed, etc... But you have to get over it and judge his talents like other coaches. Even with his "learning mistakes" he has season with 25, 24 and 22 wins and has got us to the NCAA twice. That is not yet good enough, but it is far from the D coaching grade that you say he deserves!
 

BarnBurner

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Bennett is well on his way, Beard is well on his way. Stack is going to do very well. Fife is someone i really like. Rhoades i like a ton. Do you think Pitino will be ? How long will you give him to win the conference ? It is ok to be wrong, i will miss on some of my names but i will not wait 10 years for a conference title. Early conference titles are a great forecast of long term success.

Teague was a slimeball with poor abilities. He was Villa 7 driven a wasted his time there. That is not where he got Pitino whom was not part of Villa. He could have had Buzz Williams who had the backing of several hall of fame guys. He went for winning the press conference which is a fatal error because it is fan driven not goal driven. UW did not win the press conference on Bennett, Ryan, Gard. UVA did not win the press conference with Tony Bennett, Fans wanted Tubby ! They got the grand slam guy on the backing of K, Knight,Jerry West, Izzo who all knew what he already was. Nova did not win the press conference on Wright but they had the courage to hire the right guy. Smart, tough, charismatic as hell. All backed by basketball people. Coyle got endorsements from the best in the business on Fleck. Time will tell. Pitino could do it here but he better do it damn soon. That ability to do something big in the 1st 5 years is a great predictor of success and proven historically. How long do you give someone to win the conference before you know they can not ? I said over and over i support this year.
You are blaming RP for hiring RP. Teague is the ONLY one that can be blamed. Not RP.

You can then blame the decision makers at the U for hiring Teague. Right? Right. So the decision makers at the U are ultimately accountable for the hire of Teague and RP. Right. A choice was made, according to you - Williams was available. So poor decisions at the top.

Frankly, NCAA tournament success is the real mark of excellence, imo. Conference titles are something more than meaningless, just not a big deal anymore. Do folks remember conference titles or NCAA tournament appearances and success? The latter. How long to give RP to sine the conference? A LONG time, if he has success in the NCAA tournament.

It took Beard a long, long time to get to his current position. Same with Wright. Other posts have articulated it well. You dont agree.

So, IF RP fails this year - who are your top 2 candidates for the MN job? That will come here?
 

builtbadgers

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You are blaming RP for hiring RP. Teague is the ONLY one that can be blamed. Not RP.

You can then blame the decision makers at the U for hiring Teague. Right? Right. So the decision makers at the U are ultimately accountable for the hire of Teague and RP. Right. A choice was made, according to you - Williams was available. So poor decisions at the top.

Frankly, NCAA tournament success is the real mark of excellence, imo. Conference titles are something more than meaningless, just not a big deal anymore. Do folks remember conference titles or NCAA tournament appearances and success? The latter. How long to give RP to sine the conference? A LONG time, if he has success in the NCAA tournament.

It took Beard a long, long time to get to his current position. Same with Wright. Other posts have articulated it well. You dont agree.

So, IF RP fails this year - who are your top 2 candidates for the MN job? That will come here?
Never said i knew who would come here, it is difficult to find and hire. Conference titles are not remembered but when they are won they are a sign of consistent sustainable play that if you keep doing it you will have tourney success eventually. Plus, the players,staff, families and alumni remember them forever. One tourney run is a Shaka thing, big deal. I am not blaming Pitino for being hired. I am blaming him for a great deal of really mediocre basketball. People bring up how young he was when hired. Big deal, great coaches have won quickly when they got hired. All built a solid foundation , a culture that defined who and what they are. It did not take six years. I still hope he can get it done but i will not see greatness, even really good until it is there. Just me.
 

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Bennett is well on his way, Beard is well on his way. Stack is going to do very well. Fife is someone i really like. Rhoades i like a ton. Do you think Pitino will be ? How long will you give him to win the conference ? It is ok to be wrong, i will miss on some of my names but i will not wait 10 years for a conference title. Early conference titles are a great forecast of long term success.

Teague was a slimeball with poor abilities. He was Villa 7 driven a wasted his time there. That is not where he got Pitino whom was not part of Villa. He could have had Buzz Williams who had the backing of several hall of fame guys. He went for winning the press conference which is a fatal error because it is fan driven not goal driven. UW did not win the press conference on Bennett, Ryan, Gard. UVA did not win the press conference with Tony Bennett, Fans wanted Tubby ! They got the grand slam guy on the backing of K, Knight,Jerry West, Izzo who all knew what he already was. Nova did not win the press conference on Wright but they had the courage to hire the right guy. Smart, tough, charismatic as hell. All backed by basketball people. Coyle got endorsements from the best in the business on Fleck. Time will tell. Pitino could do it here but he better do it damn soon. That ability to do something big in the 1st 5 years is a great predictor of success and proven historically. How long do you give someone to win the conference before you know they can not ? I said over and over i support this year.
Buzz wanted to come here? I think it's very hard for any coach to lose his press conference. Even Jerry Kill won his, no one was happy with Mayuri after he promised a "Tubby" hire for football, but at the time Kill's no nonsense approach was very much welcomed

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Is Pitino still the youngest High Major coach? Crazy to think seven years in

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BarnBurner

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Never said i knew who would come here, it is difficult to find and hire. Conference titles are not remembered but when they are won they are a sign of consistent sustainable play that if you keep doing it you will have tourney success eventually. Plus, the players,staff, families and alumni remember them forever. One tourney run is a Shaka thing, big deal. I am not blaming Pitino for being hired. I am blaming him for a great deal of really mediocre basketball. People bring up how young he was when hired. Big deal, great coaches have won quickly when they got hired. All built a solid foundation , a culture that defined who and what they are. It did not take six years. I still hope he can get it done but i will not see greatness, even really good until it is there. Just me.
Your "qualifiers" grow by the minute. Your past posts reference top 4 finishes. You are moving the cheese built. Stop it.

You can throw names around all day long, and if they wont come to MN does it matter? No. For the past 2 decades, MN has not been able to hire a home run. Again, who will come here? If you dont have confirmed names, stop with your garbage.

I didnt say one tourney run - I said NCAA tourney success. Again, stop moving your cheese.

Again, it is clear you dont care for RP. We all get it. You dont think he is the coach for the long term. We get it. You like to move the goalposts(cheese) and drone on about other "great" coaches instead of truly supporting the current coach.
 

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Never said i knew who would come here, it is difficult to find and hire. Conference titles are not remembered but when they are won they are a sign of consistent sustainable play that if you keep doing it you will have tourney success eventually. Plus, the players,staff, families and alumni remember them forever. One tourney run is a Shaka thing, big deal. I am not blaming Pitino for being hired. I am blaming him for a great deal of really mediocre basketball. People bring up how young he was when hired. Big deal, great coaches have won quickly when they got hired. All built a solid foundation , a culture that defined who and what they are. It did not take six years. I still hope he can get it done but i will not see greatness, even really good until it is there. Just me.

Yes, there have been a few great coaches that have blossomed at very high pressure jobs early in their career, but many very good coaches took a slow path up the ranks. They made mistakes at levels were they could coach their way out of it.


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Yes, there have been a few great coaches that have blossomed at very high pressure jobs early in their career, but many very good coaches took a slow path up the ranks. They made mistakes at levels were they could coach their way out of it.


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Check out the early success records of great coaches, many very young at the time if not in calender, in years on the job. I have said my place and stated it is my grade and my opinion. I did not call any opinion as pathetic, it is theirs and they are entitled to it. Did not move the goal posts or the cheese. If your in the top 4 in the conference year after year you will eventually win the conference. Great coaches have won their conference or made a final four by year 6. I fully support Pitino doing well here but have the opinion that he has not done anything to suggest he is a great coach. Hope going forward that he proves it. If people think that winning the NIT was tremendous they are entitled to think so, i do not. When he got his own players it was more than pathetic and the off the court stuff beyond shameful. I hold a high standard for all things and those are mine. I never said the standard i have is better then anyone else's standard. Each fan can decide for themselves.
 

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RP has equaled the highest finish in the B1G since Jim Dutcher patrolled the sidelines. He has reached the NCAAs twice and made it to the second round beating a higher seed. He has also endured seasons hit with injuries and suspensions which derailed opportunities to make the top 25 and achieve possible tourney runs. He has bolstered the recruiting at the U and yes, he has recruited some real duds when he had to scramble after being hired in the wake of Tubby's lazy recruiting.

I think he is doing fine with what he was thrown at and seems to be on the upswing. He just needs to land a couple of these local blue chips and move us up into the top half of the B1G to make us sustainable. This year he added necessary depth which we were lacking last year. Now he needs to keep adding talent to fill unexpected departures.
 

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Buzz wanted to come here? I think it's very hard for any coach to lose his press conference. Even Jerry Kill won his, no one was happy with Mayuri after he promised a "Tubby" hire for football, but at the time Kill's no nonsense approach was very much welcomed

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Not the press conference performance . Most win that. The buzz around a big name fills the room but the right hire wins the games. The best guys lay out from day one exactly how they will build a winner in the case of having to build no matter how many people are there. Again, getting it right is very difficult and each fan has their own opinion. I for one think the Kill hire was smart because he would build a culture of stability that the program needed. His bottom line was mediocre but there was a better foundation when he left and that counts for something. Just my opinion. No accusations about pathetic, narrow minded or backhanded from me to those with a different opinion. In my opinion i am not seeing a top 5 coach in the Big 10 and that is as low as i go as i believe in a higher standard of excellence. I think beating Purdue twice was tremendous and said the prep plan and scouting were tremendous. That does not make him a better coach then Painter in my eyes. I think he has a far better staff than before, my opinion. But 6 years is a significant sample size for overall record because in that frame, every team has had injuries, suspensions. I just feel a tremendous lack of building a identity that becomes what you are known for. 6 years in what is this program known for ? Defense, offense, shooting, fundamentals, efficiency, toughness. To me i do not think of this program known for any of those. He does deserve credit for last years team never quitting and that was the best i have seen for mental toughness in this program but we are not known for 24-7-365. To me, that starts with one man.
 
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