All things Derek Chauvin trial



short ornery norwegian

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I understand that.

My point is - there have been a lot of discussions on this board about the difference between 2nd-degree and 3rd-degree murder, the notion of reasonable doubt, etc.

Well - the jury instructions explain all of that and set out the context for the jury deliberations. after reading them, I understand the situation better.

I thought other people might appreciate an opportunity to do the same.

but that assumes people actually want to learn something - even something that might not jibe with their current perception of the case.

maybe I was wrong. just stay in your own thought bubble and don't let any outside information corrupt what you already "know." safer that way.
 

GopherJake

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I understand that.

My point is - there have been a lot of discussions on this board about the difference between 2nd-degree and 3rd-degree murder, the notion of reasonable doubt, etc.

Well - the jury instructions explain all of that and set out the context for the jury deliberations. after reading them, I understand the situation better.

I thought other people might appreciate an opportunity to do the same.

but that assumes people actually want to learn something - even something that might not jibe with their current perception of the case.

maybe I was wrong. just stay in your own thought bubble and don't let any outside information corrupt what you already "know." safer that way.
I don't see how he is not convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. He was clearly operating outside police protocol - committing felony assault - most definitely for the 3 minutes where Floyd was not moving or responsive. And there is overwhelming expert consensus that the assault caused Floyd's death. Those are the two key pieces and I believe both are satisfied. As the prosecuting attorney said, even a 9 year old can see that. It's just not complicated. If that's not 2nd degree murder, then they should start letting killers out of prison now.
 

Nax5

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I don't see how he is not convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. He was clearly operating outside police protocol - committing felony assault - most definitely for the 3 minutes where Floyd was not moving or responsive. And there is overwhelming expert consensus that the assault caused Floyd's death. Those are the two key pieces and I believe both are satisfied. As the prosecuting attorney said, even a 9 year old can see that. It's just not complicated. If that's not 2nd degree murder, then they should start letting killers out of prison now.
Yup. As the prosecution said from the outset: believe your eyes. It was obvious what had happened. But we obviously have to let justice play out. But even after the defense, I still think it's obvious.
 



Costa Rican Gopher

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I don't see how he is not convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. He was clearly operating outside police protocol - committing felony assault - most definitely for the 3 minutes where Floyd was not moving or responsive. And there is overwhelming expert consensus that the assault caused Floyd's death. Those are the two key pieces and I believe both are satisfied. As the prosecuting attorney said, even a 9 year old can see that. It's just not complicated. If that's not 2nd degree murder, then they should start letting killers out of prison now.

The prosecution's use-of-force expert Johnny Mercil testified that policy is not to stop restraining a suspect, even if they're unconscious, or in need of medical assistance, but rather to keep them restrained until the EMT's arrive. He testified that he themselves had done the same in their careers.

"When asked if Mercil trained officers that a suspect who had become unconscious could regain consciousness, get back into the fight, and perhaps even be more aggressive than previously, Mercil responded that he did.

This, of course, is a rationale for Chauvin maintain his knee across Floyd’s back even after Floyd lost consciousness.

As noted above, Nelson also explored with Mercil whether there were circumstances in which it would be appropriate for an officer to maintain a neck restraint for a substantial period of time, and Mercil conceded that there were.

Sometimes to maintain the neck restraint for however long it took EMS to arrive, asked Nelson? Mercil answered that he, personally, had maintained restraint on suspects for the duration required for EMS to arrive.


To ensure the point: The state’s own use-of-force expert testified on cross that he personally had engaged in use-of-force conduct that the state had been using to demonize Chauvin as an unlawful killer. That’s not a good day for the state.

Nelson also again re-emphasized the reality that the officer involved in a use-of-force event must consider not just the suspect, but also the presence of an angry and growing mob observing what might well look like an ugly use of police force, and Mercil agreed that was the case."

On the issue of providing timely medical care, an issue the state pushes with particular energy, Nelson had Mercil agree that while MPD policy is to provide care as soon as possible, that must take into consideration the safety of the scene, and that the MPD policy actually requires that it first be safe for the officer to provide care before the officer has the duty to provide that care.

Indeed, factors such as whether a suspect had just been fighting with the officers was huge in determining whether an officer could reasonably provide care—especially if that “care” would be chest compressions requiring the suspect to have their handcuffs removed. Mercil answered in the affirmative."

State’s Witness: MPD Lieutenant Johnny Mercil, Use-of-Force Trainer
 






Costa Rican Gopher

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I don't see how he is not convicted of 2nd Degree Murder. He was clearly operating outside police protocol - committing felony assault - most definitely for the 3 minutes where Floyd was not moving or responsive. And there is overwhelming expert consensus that the assault caused Floyd's death. Those are the two key pieces and I believe both are satisfied. As the prosecuting attorney said, even a 9 year old can see that. It's just not complicated. If that's not 2nd degree murder, then they should start letting killers out of prison now.

The prosecution's use-of-force expert also testified that Chuavin could have tased Floyd immediately upon arriving, but chose a lesser force option, a restraint, instead.

If Chauvin was trying to kill Floyd as the state alleges, or was even trying to seriously injure Floyd, why use the lesser force option?
 


Costa Rican Gopher

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The Strib posted personal details about the jurors, so everyone can figure out who they are. They're as good as dead if they don't convict on all counts.
 



rowdaboat

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The Strib posted personal details about the jurors, so everyone can figure out who they are. They're as good as dead if they don't convict on all counts.
Tack that on to maxine waters running her stupid mouth to his appeal argument
 

MplsGopher

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most definitely for the 3 minutes where Floyd was not moving or responsive.
This is the part the defense, of course on purpose, ignored during their rant about the prosecution only focusing on the 9mins.

Their argument could possibly hold water if we're just talking about getting someone under control and to stop fighting, and then backing down when they comply.


He kept kneeling on his neck for 3mins that Floyd had no pulse, and he didn't even bother to check if he had a pulse.


Not even CRG can fake up a defense for that.
 



FormerFatOL

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The Strib posted personal details about the jurors, so everyone can figure out who they are. They're as good as dead if they don't convict on all counts.

Is this really really correct and not just a rumor? Not a subscriber. I find it hard to believe any major publication would be that obtuse.
 

MplsGopher

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If Chauvin was trying to kill Floyd as the state alleges
He had no intention of killing Floyd.


But here's what Minnesota law says:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders.

Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:

(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or
 

MplsGopher

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Is this really really correct and not just a rumor? Not a subscriber. I find it hard to believe any major publication would be that obtuse.
Can't even connect to startribune.com

I bet they're getting massive requests in the last 10-15 mins.
 







From the Parkinglot

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What the heck was the point of publishing this information. Did they do this when the Australian lady was shot by the cop in the alley way. Do newspapers not have editorial standards anymore?
 


saintpaulguy

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What the heck was the point of publishing this information. Did they do this when the Australian lady was shot by the cop in the alley way. Do newspapers not have editorial standards anymore?
Yes, they did.

Who were the jurors in the Mohamed Noor trial?​

APRIL 30, 2019 — 9:27PM
ows_155665802161044.jpg


CEDRIC HOHNSTADT
The courtroom is depicted during opening arguments in the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor.

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THE JURORS
The Noor case was decided by a jury of 10 men and two women. There were six who appeared to be people of color on the panel, four of them immigrants.
Juror 1: A male overnight manager at a high-end grocery store.
Juror 2: A male civil engineer who works on track designs for light rail, streetcars and freight trains. He said he knew only “the basics” of the case.
Juror 3: A man who works as a carpenter and also writes.
Juror 4: A female obstetrician-gynecologist who described herself as a person of color. She said she has been second-guessed and mistaken as a nurse or lab technician because of other people’s implicit bias.
Juror 5: A man who emigrated from the Philippines. He works as a host at a restaurant.
Juror 6: A man who moved to the United States from Ethiopia. He works in the medical field.
Juror 7: A male Minneapolis firefighter who knows three first responders on the prosecution’s witness list.
Juror 8: A man who emigrated from the Philippines and works as an immigration services officer for the Department of Homeland Security.
Juror 9: A man who works in the financial investment industry.
Juror 10: A man who previously served in the Navy “hunting submarines” from helicopters. He has a permit to carry a gun.
Juror 11: A man who leads groups for people working on mental health issues and substance abuse recovery.
Juror 12: A woman who emigrated from Pakistan several years ago and said she had “never heard” of the Noor case.
 





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