"After the play"

metrolax

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Aren't late hits, by definition, after the play is through? Kinda makes sense to me
 

60's Guy

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https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/late-hit.aspx

My google skills don’t allow me to find clear NCAA answers but in the NFL we would of had a first down. It would not of had to be automatic, the yardage earned it. Never like others have said have I seen it enforced in field possession for the other team. It’s part of the dang pass play. Iowa doesn’t have the ball yet. The result of the pass play is not over yet.
 

Ewert86PC

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Regardless of the timing of the penalty, I am just ticked off that Herky-Jerkoffs feel entitled to take such a cheap shot at one of our players. The rest of the outcome of that series of events was good old referee homecooking for the Herky-Jerkoffs.

Any coach who really cares about his players would be coming out on the field. Fleck got penalized for being younger and more energetic than "the average head coach". If he was in the other team, it would have been brushed off.

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bizzle22

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In this case, the two fouls occurred in a clearly distinguished order. They were separated by significant time. In most cases, the distance of the penalty enforced was different. The Iowa yards were half the distance to the goal. The Minnesota penalty was the standard 15 yards. Location of the foul determined length.

If it were two players engaged immediately after the play the penalties would offset, if the yard marked off are equal the distance off set. (Vaguely recall that the official s used to match off the penalty both directions even when they were equal, but I am old now.
Would it not be a smart idea (at least in terms of field position) to tell your defensive players that if the opposing team is going for it on 4th down inside your 2 yard line that they should throw a cheap shot after the play if you stop them? I mean, worst case scenario you lose a yard off of what would already be terrible field position (1 yd line vs 2 yd line), but if you can bait them into throwing a cheap shot back at you then you get it at the 16 instead. Seems like it would be worth taking the chance if your players knew what to do.
 

howeda7

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https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/late-hit.aspx

My google skills don’t allow me to find clear NCAA answers but in the NFL we would of had a first down. It would not of had to be automatic, the yardage earned it. Never like others have said have I seen it enforced in field possession for the other team. It’s part of the dang pass play. Iowa doesn’t have the ball yet. The result of the pass play is not over yet.
It's unusual to have a late hit on a 4th down I guess.
 

60's Guy

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Aren't late hits, by definition, after the play is through? Kinda makes sense to me
Yes, but the late hit extends the play. It’s obviously part of that play, not the next play. That would make no sense.
 

60's Guy

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Would it not be a smart idea (at least in terms of field position) to tell your defensive players that if the opposing team is going for it on 4th down inside your 2 yard line that they should throw a cheap shot after the play if you stop them? I mean, worst case scenario you lose a yard off of what would already be terrible field position (1 yd line vs 2 yd line), but if you can bait them into throwing a cheap shot back at you then you get it at the 16 instead. Seems like it would be worth taking the chance if your players knew what to do.
#1. If it really is the NCAA rule... it’s flawed. #2. No, you wouldn’t coach your team to do that. I agree it’s smart but it is a flawed rule if it really is one. As a coach you are trying to teach your players to do the right thing. Gaming the system isn’t how I want to coach my guys. Play by the spirit of the rules. Don’t make a travesty of the rules. Do the right thing...that ain’t it.
 

bizzle22

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#1. If it really is the NCAA rule... it’s flawed. #2. No, you wouldn’t coach your team to do that. I agree it’s smart but it is a flawed rule if it really is one. As a coach you are trying to teach your players to do the right thing. Gaming the system isn’t how I want to coach my guys. Play by the spirit of the rules. Don’t make a travesty of the rules. Do the right thing...that ain’t it.
Oh I totally agree. I coach a different sport and would never teach my kids to do something like that even if it were a loophole that would help us. Just seems like the rule needs to be changed if it would incentivize behavior like that.
 

MNVCGUY

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Oh I totally agree. I coach a different sport and would never teach my kids to do something like that even if it were a loophole that would help us. Just seems like the rule needs to be changed if it would incentivize behavior like that.
I don't think for one second that Iowa coached their players to throw a cheap shot and I really don't think any coach would do that. There is no need to change the rules for a really rare situation. They explained the call and the reason for the yardage difference during the telecast do to the clear sequence of the flags.

Dead ball foul means the change of possession stands. Not sure why that is so difficult for some to grasp. Sucks, but it is what it is at this point.

This play aside, we made too many mistakes to win on the road against a good team. The positive is that the CFP talk goes away (was fun while it lasted but we aren't ready for that yet) but we are still very much in the mix to win the West and possibly earn a trip to the Rose Bowl.

On to Northwestern.
 

60's Guy

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I downloaded the NCAA rule book. It’s complicated! But, all by itself what I read is a dead ball foul results in a first down. Now, with PJ’s penalty then it gets off in the weeds and ??? But what I read is a dead ball foul all by itself is a first down just like the NFL.
 

bizzle22

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I don't think for one second that Iowa coached their players to throw a cheap shot and I really don't think any coach would do that. There is no need to change the rules for a really rare situation. They explained the call and the reason for the yardage difference during the telecast do to the clear sequence of the flags.

Dead ball foul means the change of possession stands. Not sure why that is so difficult for some to grasp. Sucks, but it is what it is at this point.

This play aside, we made too many mistakes to win on the road against a good team. The positive is that the CFP talk goes away (was fun while it lasted but we aren't ready for that yet) but we are still very much in the mix to win the West and possibly earn a trip to the Rose Bowl.

On to Northwestern.
Not at all suggesting Iowa was coached to do that. The rule just seems a bit off where one team can benefit when two teams get the same penalty. IMO common sense says the penalties should be off-setting. And not questioning why the change of possession wouldn't stand - that part makes sense.
 

McGopherFan

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Would it not be a smart idea (at least in terms of field position) to tell your defensive players that if the opposing team is going for it on 4th down inside your 2 yard line that they should throw a cheap shot after the play if you stop them? I mean, worst case scenario you lose a yard off of what would already be terrible field position (1 yd line vs 2 yd line), but if you can bait them into throwing a cheap shot back at you then you get it at the 16 instead. Seems like it would be worth taking the chance if your players knew what to do.
I see your premise, and I have to say that I have never seen two player engagement result in anything other than offsetting penalties. However.there is always the chance of ejection/dq in any situation of a fight.

There were a couple details that make today different. The timing of the occurrence, which is magnified by one occurring in the field an the other at the sideline. (difference in location). A turnover (on downs) is involved. That there would be a difference in yards walked off. Frankly, I don't recall having ever seen any compound event remotely close to this.

The run of the mill offsetting penalties are common. We get used to that situation and enforcement to the exclusion of the nuanced versions relying on the same rule.
 

hello-world

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PJ is wired. He had no business running onto the field. In the first half when the spot of the ball was disputed he gave the line judge a hearty pay on the back.
Touching an official is usually a penalty. He got away with that one but not the second infraction.
This. He looked, off, today. Not that he doesn't always, but like he looked different from the normal PJ.
 

Bad Gopher

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Calling it unsportsmanlike conduct rather than a personal foul is the key and what made it such a terrible, copout call. Call it correctly as a personal foul and it isn't assessed post-possession.
 

U2Gopher

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This should be the focus, not PJ running on the field. If that's ruled part of the play, the Gophers still have the ball and have a chance at points. That was an enormous call and I don't remember ever seeing it ruled that way before.
I could just be me, but the focus should be that Johnson, in a huge moment of the game and season, drops a ball that hit him in the numbers.


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Livingat45north

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Once the whistle blew, which happened when the ball hit the ground, the play is over and it's Iowa's ball. They then called a foul on Iowa which they should have done, and also called a foul on PJ which they should not have done. Tyler was laid out on the ground from the hit and the whistle had blown, a head coach has the right to take the field to check on an injured player. The idea that he checked on him too fast makes no sense, that's not part of the rule book. You can't run onto the field during a live play, but the whistle had blown.

The penalty on PJ didn't make much of a difference in the game, the dropped ball and quick whistle from the refs to end that play did make the difference.
 

Word

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Calling it unsportsmanlike conduct rather than a personal foul is the key and what made it such a terrible, copout call. Call it correctly as a personal foul and it isn't assessed post-possession.
Not true. I thought so at first myself, but I know someone that refs college games and he said whether or not it was a late hit or unsportsmanlike call, the result would be the same. It was a dead ball - play was over. We're just not used to it being on 4th down, which is why Iowa still gets possession after the dropped pass. If it was 3rd down, then yes, we get the 15 yards.

Considering all the player safety focus in the NCAA, this is a rule they may want to re-examine though.
 

Bad Gopher

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Not true. I thought so at first myself, but I know someone that refs college games and he said whether or not it was a late hit or unsportsmanlike call, the result would be the same. It was a dead ball - play was over. We're just not used to it being on 4th down, which is why Iowa still gets possession after the dropped pass. If it was 3rd down, then yes, we get the 15 yards.

Considering all the player safety focus in the NCAA, this is a rule they may want to re-examine though.
Dang, that would seem to encourage a cheap shot in this type of situation.
 

Panthadad2

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I've never seen two unsportsmanlike conduct calls result in sequential yardage being walked off. Or, at least I've never seen one side actually benefit from conducting a late hit. The NCAA needs to look at the "half the distance to the goal" penalty when there are penalties against both teams. It makes zero sense. It probably didn't impact the game yesterday, but it was a total psychological downer for the Gophs.
 

EG#9

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Thanks for the responses on this. As I understand it, once the ball hits the ground on 4th down possession changes, so the call was correct. It's interesting, that I don't remember seeing this exact situation happen before. I would imagine there have been a number of plays where a QB has been hit late on a ball that's already hit the ground on 4th down plays especially with the tendency to run blitzes in that scenario.
 

GophersInIowa

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Like everyone has said, by rule they got everything correct. But to me the rule is a little weird. I get that the play was technically over once the ball hits the ground but I feel like what happened was a continuation of the play. It wasn’t like two players got into a scuffle after the play. Is it called the same way if it’s a late hit out of bounds?

The other thing that doesn’t make sense to me is why the penalties didn’t offset. If the defense is offsides and the offense has a holding penalty they offset even though one happened before the other. Just seems like the rules are inconsistent in this case.
 

denguegopher

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Once the whistle blew, which happened when the ball hit the ground, the play is over and it's Iowa's ball. They then called a foul on Iowa which they should have done, and also called a foul on PJ which they should not have done. Tyler was laid out on the ground from the hit and the whistle had blown, a head coach has the right to take the field to check on an injured player. The idea that he checked on him too fast makes no sense, that's not part of the rule book. You can't run onto the field during a live play, but the whistle had blown.

The penalty on PJ didn't make much of a difference in the game, the dropped ball and quick whistle from the refs to end that play did make the difference.
My past impression was that it remains the offense's ball until the referee gives the first down signal and says, "First down, Iowa." Kind of like in baseball when someone hits a solo homerun, the ball is out of play, but the score does not change until the hitter rounds the bases and touches home plate. That past impression is obviously incorrect. Go Gophers, beat NU!
 

SoMplsHawkI

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I could just be me, but the focus should be that Johnson, in a huge moment of the game and season, drops a ball that hit him in the numbers.


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He did get the wind knocked out of him in the 2nd Q and I suspect that maybe he was anticipating a hit.
 

MaxyJR1

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Thanks for the responses on this. As I understand it, once the ball hits the ground on 4th down possession changes, so the call was correct. It's interesting, that I don't remember seeing this exact situation happen before. I would imagine there have been a number of plays where a QB has been hit late on a ball that's already hit the ground on 4th down plays especially with the tendency to run blitzes in that scenario.
It depends on if it is deemed roughing the passer or a personal foul late hit. Two different scenarios. Officials got the call right. By putting an unsportsmanlike on the Iowa player it counted toward potential ejections, so it was more severe call.

By the way Johnson saw the hit coming and embellished by flopping. I still think the hit was penalty.
 

Ope3

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Dang, that would seem to encourage a cheap shot in this type of situation.
Why would cheap shot being encouraged? Had PJ not got the offesetting flag, Iowa would have been at it's own 7 instead of 22. 15 yds of field position is still a big deal, especially in a 1 score game.
 

otter

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So a team could keep a designated "goon" on the roster (like old-school NHL) whose job is to try to provoke something anytime the team has a defensive fourth down play in the red zone, no problem if he gets ejected it's just part of his job. Heck, he wouldn't even have to be on the field for the play, he could run on the field after the whistle. Worst case it's still just half the distance to the goal. Do the Hanson brothers have any eligibility left?

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bleedsmaroonandgold

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So a team could keep a designated "goon" on the roster (like old-school NHL) whose job is to try to provoke something anytime the team has a defensive fourth down play in the red zone, no problem if he gets ejected it's just part of his job. Heck, he wouldn't even have to be on the field for the play, he could run on the field after the whistle. Worst case it's still just half the distance to the goal. Do the Hanson brothers have any eligibility left?

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The same reason teams dont do this before the play every first down when the ball is close enough to the goal line that "half the distance" is meaningless.
 

McGopherFan

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The NCAA follow rulebook contains a crap load of "unless otherwise prevented by rule" . Generally speaking a penalty cannot cause of prevent a change of possession. That is where application of what we are accustomed to seeing differs on fourth down plays.

Oops off to work . . .
 
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