3 Point Shooting

gopherlaney

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Many of us have developed carpal tunnel writing about Gabe’s two year slump.

But our issues are much deeper than that. We lead the BIG in 3 point attempts and are dead last in 3pt percentage. We have taken 332 attempts (>25/game) and are making 30% of them. Today a better shooting Iowa team only took 14.

Missed 3’s lead to run outs and being out of place on D.

This has hurt us in the road losses. We get down, shoot quick 3’s, other team gets easy look. Rinse and repeat and the rout is on. Coaches must see this too and need to hold players more accountable to taking good shots if we want to have a strong postseason run.

Every time Gabe shoots a 3 with his momentum fading to the side. Bench. Every time Ihnen catches standing completely vertical (not in a shooting stance) and shoots a 3. Bench. Every time Gach does not receive the pass in his shooters pocket and shoots a 3. Bench.

Very correctable problem, and you know Coyle see’s it too.
 

GringaGopher

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Agreed. In addition, this falling in love with 3's limits our inside out and Robbins has improved since the beginning of the season. You probably have his stats but right now he looks more comfortable shooting the 3 than Gabe.
 

builtbadgers

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Many of us have developed carpal tunnel writing about Gabe’s two year slump.

But our issues are much deeper than that. We lead the BIG in 3 point attempts and are dead last in 3pt percentage. We have taken 332 attempts (>25/game) and are making 30% of them. Today a better shooting Iowa team only took 14.

Missed 3’s lead to run outs and being out of place on D.

This has hurt us in the road losses. We get down, shoot quick 3’s, other team gets easy look. Rinse and repeat and the rout is on. Coaches must see this too and need to hold players more accountable to taking good shots if we want to have a strong postseason run.

Every time Gabe shoots a 3 with his momentum fading to the side. Bench. Every time Ihnen catches standing completely vertical (not in a shooting stance) and shoots a 3. Bench. Every time Gach does not receive the pass in his shooters pocket and shoots a 3. Bench.

Very correctable problem, and you know Coyle see’s it too.
Are you also in favor of benching for defensive mistakes, not helping, poor effort .
 

gopherlaney

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Are you also in favor of benching for defensive mistakes, not helping, poor effort .
In general yes for poor effort. For mistakes it depends. If it’s something they drill repeatedly or players should know from the scout, then yes. If it’s a set they had never seen on tape I think you let it ride.

Helping also is not that cut and dry. Depends on who you are helping to and who you left. In some instances help isn’t the right move.

Coaching staff prioritizes the keys and the scout. If it’s not in either of those it’s on the coaches not the player.
 

builtbadgers

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Who you hedging on, how hard you hedge and recover is taught and scouted. Same with help. But when someone is late to either or failed the proper technique that is a problem. There is no doubt the staff shares in the problem . The staff must make certain things non-negotiable and the players lose playing time no matter who they are when they fail the team. So a blown assignment does not get you pulled the first time but poor technique or poor effort does. All hope is not lost. The schedule leaves us leaves only Michigan once more, Illinois once more, both at home. Where as UW has 6 games against Michigan, Illinois and Iowa ! I want to finish ahead of UW for once.
 

Spottedmuskie

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Ihnen could be so much more than a 3pt shooter. He doesn't use his size at all to drive or anything, and he doesn't even shoot the ball that well..
 

Bad Gopher

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The Gophers are like any team: when you're hot you're hot, and when you're not you're not. When someone throws a zone at you, you need to be offensively competent enough to beat it some way other than shooting over it because the long-range shot isn't always going to be falling for you.

It was demoralizing watching Iowa's zone D flummox the Gophers, partly because the Hawkeyes were barely exerting themselves. I think the reason their offense was so good in the second half was because they weren't expending a lot of energy on defense.
 

McDobb4BB

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Gabe needs to shoot the ball better. I'd also say others on the team need to as well, but he's the one that stands out to me.

Yesterday was a day where it could have put some pressure on Iowa. Would that have changed the outcome of the game ...probably not.

Even with the run at the end of the game, it never looked like Iowa was really feeling any pressure. Even when we cut to the lead to 5 (I believe that was right), they just started running their stuff and getting lay-ups. I don't recall any big stops on the defensive end.

Let's say 3 of Gabe's shots went in instead of "in-n-out", that's 9 more points. That wouldn't have been enough to win the game UNLESS those 9 points resulted in the team getting after Iowa on the defensive end. We needed something to create a spark on the defensive end.

Generally teams that win these types of games somehow find a spark the ignites their energy and hustle on the defensive end. We looked confused and lost on defense ... just wasn't going to happen yesterday.
 

dingo

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To date, Our opponents are shooting 32.5% on 3-pointers while playing against us while we are shooting 30.3% (111 on 366 attempts).

If you remove Gabe (17 for 75) we would be exactly at 32.5% as well. Now 32.5% is not all that great either which gets us back to the original point which is our volume of 3's is my main concern. If they arent going in, we need to get to the rim and feed the post more. With the hope that it will create more open 3's down the road.
 

tmvander

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To date, Our opponents are shooting 32.5% on 3-pointers while playing against us while we are shooting 30.3% (111 on 366 attempts).

If you remove Gabe (17 for 75) we would be exactly at 32.5% as well. Now 32.5% is not all that great either which gets us back to the original point which is our volume of 3's is my main concern. If they arent going in, we need to get to the rim and feed the post more. With the hope that it will create more open 3's down the road.
We need to get to the free throw line more. We have gone away from that the past few games (credit some good defense). Our game has not and should not be shoot as many 3s as possible.
 

Tully55

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Total 3 pt attempts through 7 BIG games:
Minn...................211
Opponents.........143
 

USAF

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They don't run any actual offense. THAT'S the problem.
 

short ornery norwegian

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Is it that hard to recruit good shooters?

I mean - you could watch Hoffarber play for 10 minutes in HS and see that he had excellent shooting mechanics. And he took that to the Gophers.

I could be wrong - but it seems to me that Pitino likes to recruit "scorers" as opposed to "shooters."

a lot of guys can score a lot of pts in HS by being physically superior to the opponents. but when you move up to a D1 P5 conference, everyone is a good athlete. the things that worked in HS may not work at that level of college ball.

But good shooting mechanics are good mechanics at any level. Granted, some guys may be a little slow on the release, and need to make adjustments - but ball rotation, follow-through - those are constants.

at least IMHO.
 

Block M

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Is the poor 3-pt shooting primarily a matter of poor shooters or poor offensive execution/spacing/passing? Do these guys (Trey, Gabe, Ihnen, Mashburn) hit them in warmups? I guess its hard to know during Covid. One thing is for sure though, our boys like to chuck 3s, outcome be damned.
 

builtbadgers

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Is it that hard to recruit good shooters?

I mean - you could watch Hoffarber play for 10 minutes in HS and see that he had excellent shooting mechanics. And he took that to the Gophers.

I could be wrong - but it seems to me that Pitino likes to recruit "scorers" as opposed to "shooters."

a lot of guys can score a lot of pts in HS by being physically superior to the opponents. but when you move up to a D1 P5 conference, everyone is a good athlete. the things that worked in HS may not work at that level of college ball.

But good shooting mechanics are good mechanics at any level. Granted, some guys may be a little slow on the release, and need to make adjustments - but ball rotation, follow-through - those are constants.

at least IMHO.
Super hard to find great shooters. You see them but they often come with severe limitations to the rest of their game.
 

GoodasGold

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I’m a Good shooter when playing H-O-R-S-E.
 

bhk3yx

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Been pondering this for a while now, after the obvious struck me about a month ago. The 3-point distance changed between Gabe's Freshman and Sophomore year. Curious what others think about that being responsible for the decline in 3-point percentage. It's a very simple explanation and yet hard for me to discredit.
 

From the Parkinglot

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Ihnen could be so much more than a 3pt shooter. He doesn't use his size at all to drive or anything, and he doesn't even shoot the ball that well..
While I agree with driving to the basket it is so tough in ncaa. There are gonna be at least 5 other bodies in the paint all taking up space. Plus the help side defense is gonna slide and they will call a charge on you. All that only happens after you get by the clutching and grabbing your defender is allowed to do to you.
The ncaa always says they want to clean up the game from the grabbing and bumping yet they don’t. Year in and year out it’s the same clutching, bumping, and grabbing on defense. Plus now officials reward flops like Never before.
 

Otis

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How did this thread get on Gopherhole?

Everyone knows the Gophers are not shooters.
 

forever a gopher

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Is it that hard to recruit good shooters?

I mean - you could watch Hoffarber play for 10 minutes in HS and see that he had excellent shooting mechanics. And he took that to the Gophers.

I could be wrong - but it seems to me that Pitino likes to recruit "scorers" as opposed to "shooters."

a lot of guys can score a lot of pts in HS by being physically superior to the opponents. but when you move up to a D1 P5 conference, everyone is a good athlete. the things that worked in HS may not work at that level of college ball.

But good shooting mechanics are good mechanics at any level. Granted, some guys may be a little slow on the release, and need to make adjustments - but ball rotation, follow-through - those are constants.

at least IMHO.
This. It is basically the difference between WI and MN. MN recruits "athletes" or "scorers". Historically under Pitino, we've been very good at getting to the free throw line. He prioritizes scoring in transition, driving to the basket, and at the FT line. I could name the list of "pure shooters" under Pitino on one hand. However, when facing a good zone defense or a defense that clogs the lane and leaves everything else open, they often don't have enough shooters to break the zone. Remember the Northwestern zone that has given us problems before? Just like any team, sometimes they get hot and it doesn't matter. But it's not sustainable. I would say the same was true under Tubby. Too many "athletes" and not enough "shooters". It's a balance, as I can't say I want to see the paint-drying excitement of WI basketball, but at least half the players on your team should be able to hit a wide open 3. I can't say the Gophers have been able to do that under Pitino.

WI on the other hand, recruits guys that can shoot and are sound fundamentally. On average, the MN players are far superior athletically, but often not better basketball players.
 

tmvander

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Just about every game I've watched the announcers have complimented Gabe's form and have mentioned that he just needs to keep shooting. They probably aren't all shooting experts but they're around basketball a lot.

I mean you could recruit guys who are great shooters but maybe they suuuuuuuck at defense or are super slow. At that point you say wow, he hit 5 3's but the guy he was guarding scored 20 and we still lose. The guys who are lights out at 3 AND super quick likely are blue blood material.
 

idagopher

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Maybe the team should be taken to various gyms around the state while practicing for road games so they will get used to foreign shooting environments instead of just at home. Maybe it will better prepare them.
 
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To date, Our opponents are shooting 32.5% on 3-pointers while playing against us while we are shooting 30.3% (111 on 366 attempts).

If you remove Gabe (17 for 75) we would be exactly at 32.5% as well. Now 32.5% is not all that great either which gets us back to the original point which is our volume of 3's is my main concern. If they arent going in, we need to get to the rim and feed the post more. With the hope that it will create more open 3's down the road.
Yes, 3 point shooting is of major importance especially if your team is shooting at a volume that the Gophers shoot them at. However, you can make that up by getting to the line (which we have done very well at home but poorly on the road). I think we are at our best 3 point shooting wise, off of dribble penetration or inside out. I think we are at our best offensively over all in high low sets. Another thing I have noticed is our cutters off of ball screens come open but our timing is such that our guards hold the ball and we miss them. When BJ was hot in the Iowa game on Xmas the way we swung the ball was excellent. That just hasn’t happened consistently enough since.
 

builtbadgers

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Yes, 3 point shooting is of major importance especially if your team is shooting at a volume that the Gophers shoot them at. However, you can make that up by getting to the line (which we have done very well at home but poorly on the road). I think we are at our best 3 point shooting wise, off of dribble penetration or inside out. I think we are at our best offensively over all in high low sets. Another thing I have noticed is our cutters off of ball screens come open but our timing is such that our guards hold the ball and we miss them. When BJ was hot in the Iowa game on Xmas the way we swung the ball was excellent. That just hasn’t happened consistently enough since.
Great post and to be in rhythm that pass has to arrive on time and in the shooting pocket. FRACTION OFF RESULTS in the defender in the space and with a close and challenge.
 

Bayfieldgopher

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Is the poor 3-pt shooting primarily a matter of poor shooters or poor offensive execution/spacing/passing? Do these guys (Trey, Gabe, Ihnen, Mashburn) hit them in warmups? I guess its hard to know during Covid. One thing is for sure though, our boys like to chuck 3s, outcome be damned.
RP encourages taking the three. Its been a major part of his offensive philosophy since he arrived. Along with a "fast tempo", what ever that is, aggressive D and a press. About the only thing we have seen is chucking 3's.

So how was that been working for the past 7 or 8 years Richard? He finally admits its not working. See Strib article https://www.startribune.com/shootin...-basketball-teams-offensive-slumps/600009714/
 

tmvander

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RP encourages taking the three. Its been a major part of his offensive philosophy since he arrived. Along with a "fast tempo", what ever that is, aggressive D and a press. About the only thing we have seen is chucking 3's.

So how was that been working for the past 7 or 8 years Richard? He finally admits its not working. See Strib article https://www.startribune.com/shootin...-basketball-teams-offensive-slumps/600009714/
I think getting guys like Coffey and Murphy have shifted his view from jacking 3s to aggressively getting to the basket and trying to get to the line. We were awesome at it for a while this year but now teams are adjusting. Hopefully we get back to the drawing board and figure out ways to score if that's taken away from us.
 

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We are only a few weeks removed from leading the NCAA in FT attempts per game. Funny how a string of games against the Top10 displays your warts and diminishes your assets.

It will get better, after Saturday.
 

builtbadgers

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We are only a few weeks removed from leading the NCAA in FT attempts per game. Funny how a string of games against the Top10 displays your warts and diminishes your assets.

It will get better, after Saturday.
Agree. Michigan has way more talent and skill than I thought before I saw them several times. Howard has proven very adept at exploiting his advantages. It is very early but he has the signs of being a exceptional teacher and great motivator. Lets see if someone good can adjust and get them in a tight game to see how they perform. Being at home helps.
 

tmvander

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We are only a few weeks removed from leading the NCAA in FT attempts per game. Funny how a string of games against the Top10 displays your warts and diminishes your assets.

It will get better, after Saturday.
I mean these teams are providing the blueprint for beating us. I'd expect to see quite a bit more zone and doubling Carr off the screen the rest of the year. We're going to have to figure some things out even against the lower level teams in the conference.
 
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