The 12th Man
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Will Be Better Jobs Next Year Than Minnesota If Brew Is Fired
- Thread starter akgopher
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You really needed to read what I wrote more carefully before you responded.
One thing at a time. I'm not saying that Minnesota is demonstrably better than all but 25 jobs in the country. What I am saying is that after the top 25 jobs in the country Minnesota has as good and more often than not better potential to create sustained success as any other program. Remember in my initial post I stipulated that every Big Ten coach was gone tomorrow and you were to build a program at a school for the long haul.
Therefore, the issue isn't arguing that Minnesota is better than Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State, Florida, Bama, USC, Oklahoma, etc. What I am contending is that after that upper tier, Minnesota has as much potential and in many cases more to build sustained success in the future as Iowa, Wisconsin, Mizzou, Arkansas, Georgia Tech, Michigan State, or any other 2nd tier non-elite schools in BCS conferences.
First of all TCF Bank stadium IS special. Every single non-Gopher fan I know who has seen it agrees. The stadium has a beautiful design with an incredible view of downtown, the 2nd largest jumbotron in college football, an intimate feel where even the furthest away seats feel close and provide a good look at the action, the largest (and one of the most beautiful) home locker rooms in college football, and the room to expand to 85,000 seats as the program builds.
Secondly, the school is huge which means there is an enormous base for alumni support. . Minnesota needs to go to 2 New Year's Days bowls in a row (winning one) or attend one Rose Bowl to really start to maximize this support.
In addition, Minneapolis is an incredible city filled with lots of useful stuff to lure recruits. It is the best metropolitan area of any school in the Big Ten
I'm sick and tired of people with no sense of history constantly asserting, based on the last 15 or 20 years of evidence that Wisconsin or Iowa is more conducive to success than Minnesota. Historically, Minnesota has been much more of a powerhouse than either of those programs. Neither Iowa nor Wisconsin can dream about 6 National Titles and 18 Big Ten Championships.
Remember, the only difference between the very recent history and not quite as recent history is that middle aged/old men don't know (or care to learn about) anything they can't personally remember.
CR and Kinnick have enjoyed more recent success but that was before we had a facility that puts theirs to shame. And for all of football history before that the Gophers were annihilating both the Hawkeyes and Badgers on a regular basis in Brick House. TCF IS a demonstrably better facility than Iowa or Wisconsin possesses. All that's missing is a couple big years to consistently fill the seats and really tap the enormous alumni base
Show me the non-top 25 or 30 program that has the combination of facilities, alumni base, metropolitan area, and tradition that exceeds that of the Minnesota Golden Gophers. While some are undoubtably similar, you will not find one with any superior tools at its disposal than Minnesota has.
Is it possible that Minnesota won't climb past the other mid tier schools I mentioned? Of course that is possible. But Minnesota rates extremely well against all other schools when you add up the ingredients of what is necessary to build a consistent winner at a place other than Ohio State or USC.
See the list above. There's at least 40 schools that are clearly better then Minnesota right now. There's another 10-20 with whom we'd be in a flat-footed tie in mediocrity. You seem to be asserting that 'in a perfect world' there's only 25 schools that we could never surpass. I suppose that might be true. But to say that any reasonable coach wouldn't choose the job at Iowa, Wisconsin, VA Tech, LSU, Arkansas, Oklahoma State, etc. because the Minnesota job 'might' have as much upside in 10 years is ridiculous. Not only is it possible that Minnesota won't climb past many/most of these schools, it's downright unlikely that they will.
That doesn't mean we quit trying. But those are all better jobs, TCF or no TCF. And 6 Nationional Titles and 18 Big 10 Titles is great and all, but when none of them occured in the last 40 years it doesn't mean much. Army and Navy were great football powers 40 years ago. Do you think they will return to that level any time soon? Yes, Minnesota has a huge alumni base. That should be a huge asset. But the current reality is that they had huge swaths of empty seats in thier brand new stadium at several of thier home games. They couldn't get enough of those millions of alumni to bother to show up, even with the shine not off the stadium. Yes, MSP has some recruiting advatanges over most schools. It's offset by what so many hear falsly bemoan as the Gophers downfall. Gopher football is the #5 or #6 game in town, not #1. No matter what they do, they'll never pass the Vikings or the Twins for that crown.
The Minnesota basketball job IS one of the top 25-30 jobs in the nation. It has the same advantages/disadvantages except that instead of of a shiny new arena they have a 'classic' beloved arena that provides a big home court advtange. But, despite setbacks, they have managed to compete at a very high level in the last 20 years. Also, thanks to needing far fewer recruits, the simple advantage of being the only school in the state is a far greater advtange. Simply by keeping the top Minnesota kids in town, (assuming they actually find thier way to the court) means you can build a very strong program. They also manage to sell out a large share of games and generally finish in the top 25 in average attendance nationally. The football team has never done so, IIRC and physically cannot now, given the size of TCF compared to most big-time programs.
You aren't even paying attention to what I wrote. There are absolutely not 40 schools with a demonstrable advantage over Minnesota in terms of building a program for the long haul. Again, Wisconsin was terrible before Alvarez. That wasn't that long ago. The point (once again for the slow class) is that there are certain factors that put together make up a programs true potential. Minnesota's elite facilities, huge alumni base, great metro area, all add up to a program with the edifice needed to build a program. For a detailed description of this go back and actually READ MY LAST POST.
And while I personally agree the Gopher basketball job is a great gig you seem to very quickly have forgotten NCAA sanctions and the Monson years. When Tubby Smith took the job at Minnesota many analysts wondered if he could take a program at the bottom of the Big Ten and turn it around. Back then 'experts' absolutely did not consider Minnesota an elite basketball job.
Howeda, you are the kind of poster who throws out knee jerks reactions and revisionist history instead of actually taking the time to parse out what someone else is saying. I don't go in for personal attacks so I'm not going to be nasty, but I am done trying to force people to use some analytical ability when considering the statements of others
buddylee853
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THIS ^^^
ruralgopher
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I think outside of the elite historical programs it all comes down to getting the right coach. If a coach had a historically great season this program would be viewed as favorably as most of the 'better' schools listed above, assuming that the U paid accordingly. Suddenly every Minnesotan would be fans who 'had been there through the tough years', the media would jump on the bandwagon like they do everytime the vikes or twins have a good year and this would be a 'premier job with a football history that rivals the most storied programs'.
Believe me, I read your post. I simply think you're vastly over-rating the advantages the Gopher football progam has. It has nothing to do with knee-jerk reactions or revisionist history. I won't stoop to calling you ignorant as you did me, but the shine on TCF is definately blinding you to reality a bit.
'Elite facilities'. Yes, TCF if great. But it's 50,000 seats for a reason and they still had significant no-shows in year 1. It will never generate the revenue that 75,000 seats in Camp Randall or Kinnick will no matter how much newer it is.
'Huge Alumni base.' The size of the alumni base doesn't mean anything if they wont' show up. There's no excuse for huge swaths of empty seats in the first year of a new stadium like we saw this year.
'Great Metro Area.' Again, I concede there are advantages to being in a major metro area. There are also disadvantages. It ends up something of a wash.
Minnesota is simply not as good a job as the Wisconsin's, Iowa's, and Oklahoma State's of the world (for example). Thier 'demonstrable advantages' over Minnesota vary, but generally are that they have been much more successful in the last 10-20 years, have better fan support and make more money. Winning, money and fan support matter more then how new your stadium is or how big a city you play in.
Can Minnesota catch and pass these programs? Sure, in theory. But currently, it is not close to doing so, and it doesn't have the inherent long-term advantages you seem to think. Minnesota is not a top 40 job in college football. It's just that simple.
To use your example, if all the BCS college football coaches were fired tomorrow and could choose any job they wanted, we wouldn't be among the first 40 picked. The basketball job would be. And while it was at its lowest point in decades when Tubby came along, it would have been in the top 40 even then. The scandals were damaging, but didn't change the fact that they have a strong fan base, good venue and exclusive access to a recruiting base productive enough to build a winner, in addition to the big city advantages you pointed out.
+1 Success creates crowds. For the non-Michigans of the world that is the golden rule
ruralgopher
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Even Michigan is subject to attendence issues when they aren't winning... From mvictors ater the tOSU game this year
"The idiots who sold all those tickets to the mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, inbred, sheep-f**ing, sweaty-yellow-t-shirt-wearing, PBR-swilling, wife-beaters from Ohio should NEVER be allowed anywhere near Michigan Stadium again. That was a freaking home game for tOSU."
"The idiots who sold all those tickets to the mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, inbred, sheep-f**ing, sweaty-yellow-t-shirt-wearing, PBR-swilling, wife-beaters from Ohio should NEVER be allowed anywhere near Michigan Stadium again. That was a freaking home game for tOSU."
oak_street1981
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Oklahoma State has not been a better program
Minnesota is simply not as good a job as the Wisconsin's, Iowa's, and Oklahoma State's of the world (for example). Thier 'demonstrable advantages' over Minnesota vary, but generally are that they have been much more successful in the last 10-20 years, have better fan support and make more money. Winning, money and fan support matter more then how new your stadium is or how big a city you play in.
than Minnesota over the last 10-20 years.
They have had a few good and great players, and now that T. Boone Pickens has given them hundreds of millions, they are definitely on the upswing.
Minnesota is simply not as good a job as the Wisconsin's, Iowa's, and Oklahoma State's of the world (for example). Thier 'demonstrable advantages' over Minnesota vary, but generally are that they have been much more successful in the last 10-20 years, have better fan support and make more money. Winning, money and fan support matter more then how new your stadium is or how big a city you play in.
than Minnesota over the last 10-20 years.
They have had a few good and great players, and now that T. Boone Pickens has given them hundreds of millions, they are definitely on the upswing.
Michigan also has the advantage of being a "plimage" road trip. Its a road trip that every college football fan should go on. Much like Notre Dame, Bama, SC, and Ohio State. Thats something Minnesota doesn't have. And possibly lost forever when they tore down Memorial Stadium.