The Ultimate Decision

justthefacts

Active member
I generally agree with the article that polls on impeachment are proxies for approval polls. Generally, those that think he should be impeached are Democrats and those who don’t are Republicans. Independents end up swaying the poll depending on how they are perceiving current news on the president’s conduct.

Do impeachment polls matter? What should matter are the facts in the case against the President. (redacted)
KGF: The public thinks the Dems are wrong on impeachment!

Me: That's not supported by the data.

KGF: It doesn't matter what the public thinks about impeachment!
 

Section2

Active member
Spot on. We had an investigation going by Mueller that Trump fully knew was not based on legal predicate and he was watching them pinch people like Mike Flynn to get at Trump. It would have been well within Trump's legal rights to fire Mueller based on his conflicts of interest and conduct or for any other reason Trump chose. Yet leftists here like Howie think that if Trump even thinks about doing what is within his power to do- he should be impeached. Tactically, it was correct not to fire Mueller. Legally, Mueller could have been fired.

By the way, I heard yesterday the General Flynn's legal defense has cost over 5 million dollars so far. For an innocent man. Tony Podesta on the other hand- free as a bird so far.
Why does Howie keep trotting out "firing Mueller = obstruction" as his best case? Surely these 8 other "blatant" examples of obstruction don't involve Trump exercising his constitutionally granted authority?
 

Section2

Active member
KGF: The public thinks the Dems are wrong on impeachment!

Me: That's not supported by the data.

KGF: It doesn't matter what the public thinks about impeachment!
Does it really matter? The Dems aren't going to impeach Trump, not even for "history". It would take months to begin the process, and it will be election time in short order. Politically it's a loss for the Dems to try, everyone knows it. Operationally, the Rs in the Senate will never vote to impeach. And if the public is so in your corner with regard to Trump, you need only beat him in the next election. 60% of the country hates him! Surely he has no chance at reelection.
 

KillerGopherFan

Active member
KGF: The public thinks the Dems are wrong on impeachment!

Me: That's not supported by the data.

KGF: It doesn't matter what the public thinks about impeachment!
No, I’m making a nuanced argument. And I didn’t say the public thinks the Dems are wrong on impeachment. I said the polls are more a reflection of approval than they are actually on impeachment. I also don’t think one poll, as you cited, is an accurate reflection of the public’s view on impeachment and I pointed out that the Fox News poll is an outlier relative to most of the polls.

Even if I think the polls are an accurate reflection of public opinion, which is debatable, that doesn’t mean that I believe we should impeach the President b/c of it. I believe that the facts are a more important determinant of whether the President should be impeached, and the current facts don’t support impeachment.

But, based on the “data” that you’ve put forward, you think we should impeach the President b/c of a Fox News poll.

Brilliant!!!

And very disingenuous of you to misrepresent my argument. I thought you were better than that, but you’ve been buddying up with howie too much.
 

justthefacts

Active member
No, I’m making a nuanced argument. And I didn’t say the public thinks the Dems are wrong on impeachment. I said the polls are more a reflection of approval than they are actually on impeachment. I also don’t think one poll, as you cited, is an accurate reflection of the public’s view on impeachment and I pointed out that the Fox News poll is an outlier relative to most of the polls.

Even if I think the polls are an accurate reflection of public opinion, which is debatable, that doesn’t mean that I believe we should impeach the President b/c of it. I believe that the facts are a more important determinant of whether the President should be impeached, and the current facts don’t support impeachment.

But, based on the “data” that you’ve put forward, you think we should impeach the President b/c of a Fox News poll.

Brilliant!!!

And very disingenuous of you to misrepresent my argument. I thought you were better than that, but you’ve been buddying up with howie too much.
 
Smart post. If you were the Dem candidate, what would be your two or three top issues and what would you propose? I struggle to see what it is that the Dems could offer at this point. You are not a socialist like half of the party, so the problem is you have to get them to be with you. What do you do that doesn't blow the budget out in an insane way like free college, free health care, open borders and college loan forgiveness? The problem you have is that two thirds of the Dem party is based on constituencies that have identity grievances or dependencies. Actual policies that benefit lack appeal to these groups.

In my opinion, the real reason that they spend all of their time on chasing Trump is that they themselves have nothing left to offer in terms of solutions. Their reason for running is to get power and get on the Washington gravy train.
If I was running the DNC - instead of the empty suit currently in that position -

I would push the candidates to focus on pocketbook issues such as prescription drug prices - college affordability (not free college) - job training (push community colleges and technical schools) - and yes, affordable health care. Also infrastructure as a job creation program. Talk about Green Energy as a job creation program - train people for good-paying jobs in the wind and solar industries. But make it all about jobs and money. Get a better job, make more money, and grab your share of the American Dream. That is a platform you should able to sell in the Midwest battleground states. Dems do not have to pander to NY or CA. they will carry those states with any candidate or any platform. Go after the states you need to win to win the Electoral College.

Also, as the new DNC head, I would put a huge emphasis on local elections. Recruit and support the best candidates possible to run in state legislative races. (2020 census is looming - control the state house, and control re-districting).
 

bga1

Active member
If I was running the DNC - instead of the empty suit currently in that position -

I would push the candidates to focus on pocketbook issues such as prescription drug prices - college affordability (not free college) - job training (push community colleges and technical schools) - and yes, affordable health care. Also infrastructure as a job creation program. Talk about Green Energy as a job creation program - train people for good-paying jobs in the wind and solar industries. But make it all about jobs and money. Get a better job, make more money, and grab your share of the American Dream. That is a platform you should able to sell in the Midwest battleground states. Dems do not have to pander to NY or CA. they will carry those states with any candidate or any platform. Go after the states you need to win to win the Electoral College.

Also, as the new DNC head, I would put a huge emphasis on local elections. Recruit and support the best candidates possible to run in state legislative races. (2020 census is looming - control the state house, and control re-districting).
Good post...of course the devil is in the details. It sounds like you are advocating for more government involvement in college education, more government involvement in health care and more government involvement in energy. The history of that approach is not good. To be fair maybe your approach would be new and different.
 

KillerGopherFan

Active member
I don’t think any of that is in conflict with what I’ve stated in more recent posts.

I said that the independents will end up deciding. Independents/moderates are a segment of the public, not the entire public. I said that Republicans are generally against and Democrats are generally for, just as the approval ratings and impeachment polls. But, polls seem to indicate that moderates/independents are against proceeding with impeachment.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/415760-voters-split-on-if-house-dems-should-begin-impeachment

...The poll also revealed a partisan divide on the issue, with 74 percent of Republican voters polled saying impeachment proceedings should not begin, and 66 percent of Democrats surveyed supporting impeachment moving ahead.

Among independents, 44 percent of respondents said there should not be impeachment proceedings, while 36 percent said they favor the measure...


And, in the above post, I was talking about how it’s going to cost Dems in the election. Not whether impeachment should be based on public opinion.
 

KillerGopherFan

Active member
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/poll-support-for-impeachment-at-lowest-level-35

Support for impeachment at lowest level of 35%: Poll

While some 2020 Democrats and House leaders are eager to open impeachment hearings against President Trump, the public has lost interest.

According to the latest Monmouth University Poll, which has been tracking the issue, 59% disagree with the Democrats, and just 35% agree.

“Support for the president’s removal via impeachment has ranged between 35% and 42% since Monmouth started asking this question in July 2017, with the current results at the low end of that range,” said the analysis.
 

Gophers_4life

Active member
Nancy rode it out.

If you can delay/deflect long enough, the people will lose interest. That is a universal fact. The only thing that has changed over the years is the length of the attention span.
 

GoodasGold

Active member
Pence would at least act like a president is supposed to act.

The horrible, misspelled tweets would go away. The literal laugh-out-loud gaffes during unscripted spoken responses would go away.

But the rest would be the same. Barr still there. Pro-pollution EPA. Pro-private schools, anti-research DoEd, etc etc etc. The filth.
The office cue of the president would morph into eerily creepy.
 

justthefacts

Active member
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/poll-support-for-impeachment-at-lowest-level-35

Support for impeachment at lowest level of 35%: Poll

While some 2020 Democrats and House leaders are eager to open impeachment hearings against President Trump, the public has lost interest.

According to the latest Monmouth University Poll, which has been tracking the issue, 59% disagree with the Democrats, and just 35% agree.

“Support for the president’s removal via impeachment has ranged between 35% and 42% since Monmouth started asking this question in July 2017, with the current results at the low end of that range,” said the analysis.
Annnnnnnd, impeachment polls matter again!
 

KillerGopherFan

Active member
Annnnnnnd, impeachment polls matter again!
I knew you’d have a comment when I posted it.

I stand by my posts. The poll you posted said something to the effect of ‘do you favor impeachment proceedings’. It really depends how you ask the question and there will be variances on polls.

I didn’t feel that the polls were reflecting impeachment as much as they were approval/disapproval for Trump, or who wants a different president. As the election grows nearer, with the campaigns well under way, many Democrats are moving on from the reality that Trump won’t be impeached. For others, it’s still ‘I want a new president’.

Like I said before, opinion polls on impeachment don’t matter nearly as much as the facts and evidence that either validate or invalidate impeachment.

So it looks like the poll respondents are now acknowledging what I said before, that impeachment was losing support among the public. But many still want another president.
 

justthefacts

Active member
I don’t think any of that is in conflict with what I’ve stated in more recent posts.

I said that the independents will end up deciding. Independents/moderates are a segment of the public, not the entire public. I said that Republicans are generally against and Democrats are generally for, just as the approval ratings and impeachment polls. But, polls seem to indicate that moderates/independents are against proceeding with impeachment.

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/415760-voters-split-on-if-house-dems-should-begin-impeachment

...The poll also revealed a partisan divide on the issue, with 74 percent of Republican voters polled saying impeachment proceedings should not begin, and 66 percent of Democrats surveyed supporting impeachment moving ahead.

Among independents, 44 percent of respondents said there should not be impeachment proceedings, while 36 percent said they favor the measure...


And, in the above post, I was talking about how it’s going to cost Dems in the election. Not whether impeachment should be based on public opinion.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-majority-of-americans-say-they-endorse-opening-of-house-impeachment-inquiry-of-trump/2019/10/07/be9e0af6-e936-11e9-85c0-85a098e47b37_story.html
 

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