Dont tell me starters were tired

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Doc1001

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They must have had three long video reviews of plays. Players had plenty of rest. If they were still tired they better look at the strength and conditioning coach.
 

Doc1001 said:
They must have had three long video reviews of plays. Players had plenty of rest. If they were still tired they better look at the strength and conditioning coach.
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I'm not trying to be a smart a$$, but do you work out?
 

You can't play about 38 minutes of big ten games day after day and keep up. Your body gets beaten up and exhausted. Pitino is the worst at developing and playing bench players. This is the first time I have said it, but I am done. Fire the coach.
 

CoMn said:
You can't play about 38 minutes of big ten games day after day and keep up. Your body gets beaten up and exhausted. Pitino is the worst at developing and playing bench players. This is the first time I have said it, but I am done. Fire the coach.
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Cowan
 

The players very well may have been tired, but the problem is we haven't had a bench all year. Coaches should know we don't play well at the end of the game... maybe get them a few more minutes on the bench earlier in the game.

For what it is worth, I would have called a timeout when they started the second have on a 5-0 run.
 


Doc1001 said:
They must have had three long video reviews of plays. Players had plenty of rest. If they were still tired they better look at the strength and conditioning coach.
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Fatigue isn't just game by game, it's cumulative throughout a season, in addition to more substantial wear and tear that occurs that kids play through. Toward the end of the game, Marcus Carr was getting the ball over half court, passing it off, and retreating to the corner to put his hands on his knees to rest until he had to come get the ball again. I guess you can argue that he "shouldn't" be tired and should have better conditioning, but I can think of no better conditioning than playing 38/39 minutes a game in the most physical conference in the country.

The clear common denominator in our late game collapses (especially the Purdue game) is Carr running out of gas and our offense stalling. Without Carr having energy to make dynamic plays, we simply don't have an offense - we really do live and die by him. My assertion - with a serviceable backup PG that would allow Carr to play 33/34 min a game, we likely have 3/4 more wins.
 



CoMn said:
You can't play about 38 minutes of big ten games day after day and keep up. Your body gets beaten up and exhausted. Pitino is the worst at developing and playing bench players. This is the first time I have said it, but I am done. Fire the coach.
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They don't play "day after day"; they play 2 games/week at the most. We have a bunch of head cases whose coach does not instill confidence.
 



Doc1001 said:
They must have had three long video reviews of plays. Players had plenty of rest. If they were still tired they better look at the strength and conditioning coach.
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If you really believe that 3-5 minutes is going to be the difference then we will just need to agree to disagree. Everyone should be tired at the end of a basketball game otherwise they don't play at all or they are not working hard. 3-5 minutes wouldn't have made or missed either of those front end 1 and 1s. They were mentally shot which the coach admitted and said he needs to fix. The problem is it has happened 4 times now and he hasn't fixed it and I haven't seen yet what he has tried to do differently.
 

Holf said:
Fatigue isn't just game by game, it's cumulative throughout a season, in addition to more substantial wear and tear that occurs that kids play through. Toward the end of the game, Marcus Carr was getting the ball over half court, passing it off, and retreating to the corner to put his hands on his knees to rest until he had to come get the ball again. I guess you can argue that he "shouldn't" be tired and should have better conditioning, but I can think of no better conditioning than playing 38/39 minutes a game in the most physical conference in the country.

The clear common denominator in our late game collapses (especially the Purdue game) is Carr running out of gas and our offense stalling. Without Carr having energy to make dynamic plays, we simply don't have an offense - we really do live and die by him. My assertion - with a serviceable backup PG that would allow Carr to play 33/34 min a game, we likely have 3/4 more wins.
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I don't believe our offense stalling at the end of the games has to do with being tired. It has to be with us stopping being aggressive and while trying to run clock. It allows other perimeter to amp up the pressure without any worries of being beat backdoors. It is also why we struggle against the press as well. These are high level athletes and can handle it physically. You may have a fair discussion on the mentally part.
 

It is lack of a bench. That is a failure of both recruiting and player development.
I am sure he AD is aware of both. He gets paid big $$$ to make decisions and not anyone on this site.
It is going to be interesting to see what he does.
 

manderson1984 said:
I don't believe our offense stalling at the end of the games has to do with being tired. It has to be with us stopping being aggressive and while trying to run clock. It allows other perimeter to amp up the pressure without any worries of being beat backdoors. It is also why we struggle against the press as well. These are high level athletes and can handle it physically. You may have a fair discussion on the mentally part.
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I agree with you that some if it is a tactical issue i.e. Gophers playing slow-down offense to milk clock, but that also has to do with fatigue. Go back and watch the tape (if you happen to have recorded the game) - Marcus can barely stand at times in the last 5-7 minutes. That's not on him - he's been given far too great of a burden. Kid's played his heart out, and it's unfair to him and rest of team that he in particular hasn't had proper rest/substitution needed so he can execute down the stretch and help team put games away. No one should be expected to play 39 minutes and perform at a high level to the end, it's a ludicrous proposition.
 




manderson1984 said:
If you really believe that 3-5 minutes is going to be the difference then we will just need to agree to disagree. Everyone should be tired at the end of a basketball game otherwise they don't play at all or they are not working hard. 3-5 minutes wouldn't have made or missed either of those front end 1 and 1s. They were mentally shot which the coach admitted and said he needs to fix. The problem is it has happened 4 times now and he hasn't fixed it and I haven't seen yet what he has tried to do differently.
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There is just something missing with these guys when it comes to the stretch run in games. They are not mentally tough and is this something that is coached or is this something innate? I believe it's a little of one and allot of the other, just not sure which is which. I hate to compare these guys to the FB team and their development and preparation BUT (here we go..) it seems as though the FB players are prepared to deal with these situations and even told this is what competition is all about and this is when you step up! This is where you make or break yourself as a player and that follows you in life and these guys take it seriously because their coach does too.

I don't know; I'm reaching but I'd been calling my dad (after games) in Minnesota and telling him for months little Richie should be getting his bench more minutes in the NC schedule to prepare for moments like these in the Big 10 as they faded in NC down the stretch as well and why not give the to other guys floor time. I was irate as can be with their first Conference game against Iowa when the guards couldn't hit a barn with their shots but yet Richie stuck with the guys versus having them sit and regain their confidence.

I really hate to say it but I also told my dad last year I wanted them to lose out to bring in another coach as I just didn't think LR (Little Richie) would/could get it done long term. They ended up getting hot and beating Louisville (which was fun I admit BUT...) and we're back to where we were at that time but unfortunately last year we had 2 coaches I felt we really had a good chance to land.

Time to move on this year and see what Mr. Coyle can find!
 


DanvilleGopher said:
There is just something missing with these guys when it comes to the stretch run in games. They are not mentally tough and is this something that is coached or is this something innate? I believe it's a little of one and allot of the other, just not sure which is which. I hate to compare these guys to the FB team and their development and preparation BUT (here we go..) it seems as though the FB players are prepared to deal with these situations and even told this is what competition is all about and this is when you step up! This is where you make or break yourself as a player and that follows you in life and these guys take it seriously because their coach does too.

I don't know; I'm reaching but I'd been calling my dad (after games) in Minnesota and telling him for months little Richie should be getting his bench more minutes in the NC schedule to prepare for moments like these in the Big 10 as they faded in NC down the stretch as well and why not give the to other guys floor time. I was irate as can be with their first Conference game against Iowa when the guards couldn't hit a barn with their shots but yet Richie stuck with the guys versus having them sit and regain their confidence.

I really hate to say it but I also told my dad last year I wanted them to lose out to bring in another coach as I just didn't think LR (Little Richie) would/could get it done long term. They ended up getting hot and beating Louisville (which was fun I admit BUT...) and we're back to where we were at that time but unfortunately last year we had 2 coaches I felt we really had a good chance to land.

Time to move on this year and see what Mr. Coyle can find!
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What's the point in calling him Little Richie?
 



Yesterday was the first time our bench scored more than 10 points in a game in over a month. And they barely made it even though Ihnen had 9 in the first 10 minutes of the game. On a 13 man roster you can have one or two misses/injuries. But you can't have Brady Rudrud, Greenlee, Freeman, Hurt and an injured Curry all at the same time. It's simply bad recruiting and bad roster management.
 

All someone has to do is look at the box scores after games - Maryland played 10 players, we played 8 - most of the time we have 7 or 8 get into competitive games and the bench players only getting a minute or two - this has been an issue since day one this year. unfortunately we lost some games and what does Pitino do? Shorten the bench. At some point the window closed on getting bench players minutes/experience earlier in the season. Pitino played short benches before , but the difference was he had upperclassmen who were more physically and mentally mature. Expecting a limited group of 19, 20 & 21 years old to hold up in a year where the big ten is a murderers row is not smart.
 

Holf said:
I agree with you that some if it is a tactical issue i.e. Gophers playing slow-down offense to milk clock, but that also has to do with fatigue. Go back and watch the tape (if you happen to have recorded the game) - Marcus can barely stand at times in the last 5-7 minutes. That's not on him - he's been given far too great of a burden. Kid's played his heart out, and it's unfair to him and rest of team that he in particular hasn't had proper rest/substitution needed so he can execute down the stretch and help team put games away. No one should be expected to play 39 minutes and perform at a high level to the end, it's a ludicrous proposition.
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I didn't see him lagging personally. I do disagree with the idea that guys can't play 39 minutes. These are high high level athletes and can do so with the breaks they are given. Other players do it all the time like Tre Jones. The reason his season average is less is because he gets to sit in blow outs. Run better press break and offensive stuff if you want to reduce the load on Carr.
 

Thymanst said:
All someone has to do is look at the box scores after games - Maryland played 10 players, we played 8 - most of the time we have 7 or 8 get into competitive games and the bench players only getting a minute or two - this has been an issue since day one this year. unfortunately we lost some games and what does Pitino do? Shorten the bench. At some point the window closed on getting bench players minutes/experience earlier in the season. Pitino played short benches before , but the difference was he had upperclassmen who were more physically and mentally mature. Expecting a limited group of 19, 20 & 21 years old to hold up in a year where the big ten is a murderers row is not smart.
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Maryland played 10 guys because of foul trouble. They literally have a similar bench to us except Wiggins gets equal minutes to some starters where Tre Williams does not get equal minutes to Gabe and Peyton. All teams shorten their bench come tournament time anyways.
 

DanvilleGopher said:
There is just something missing with these guys when it comes to the stretch run in games. They are not mentally tough and is this something that is coached or is this something innate? I believe it's a little of one and allot of the other, just not sure which is which. I hate to compare these guys to the FB team and their development and preparation BUT (here we go..) it seems as though the FB players are prepared to deal with these situations and even told this is what competition is all about and this is when you step up! This is where you make or break yourself as a player and that follows you in life and these guys take it seriously because their coach does too.

I don't know; I'm reaching but I'd been calling my dad (after games) in Minnesota and telling him for months little Richie should be getting his bench more minutes in the NC schedule to prepare for moments like these in the Big 10 as they faded in NC down the stretch as well and why not give the to other guys floor time. I was irate as can be with their first Conference game against Iowa when the guards couldn't hit a barn with their shots but yet Richie stuck with the guys versus having them sit and regain their confidence.

I really hate to say it but I also told my dad last year I wanted them to lose out to bring in another coach as I just didn't think LR (Little Richie) would/could get it done long term. They ended up getting hot and beating Louisville (which was fun I admit BUT...) and we're back to where we were at that time but unfortunately last year we had 2 coaches I felt we really had a good chance to land.

Time to move on this year and see what Mr. Coyle can find!
Click to expand...

Can't compare to the football team as they are both different beasts. You are right about their being an issue of this team falling at the end of games. It goes back to playing a style of trying to not lose vs. just going and winning. When you have a lead and teams amp up pressure, you need to be able to counter that pressure. When done correctly it most likely ends up in lay ups and high percentage open kick out 3s. We have held the ball up top and put more pressure and stress on our guards. It's not helpful and it's proven so as we've allowed teams to come back. The frustrating part on my end is the inability to change or try something new. Last night against the press was a great example. We loaded the back court with guys but didn't go over the top except for once. Either go over the top of it or put less guys in the backcourt so that their defenders have more floor to guard.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Nah, just seems rather childish. Like you're trying to belittle him or something. Just didn't know if there was a particular reason you did it.
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Yeah, I've been called much worse probably by much better but I guess you might be right as I never really did warm to 'Richard' and that just might be showing in how I reference him... good call, I'll grow up!
 

manderson1984 said:
Maryland played 10 guys because of foul trouble. They literally have a similar bench to us except Wiggins gets equal minutes to some starters where Tre Williams does not get equal minutes to Gabe and Peyton. All teams shorten their bench come tournament time anyways.
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Thier bench scored 19 points -ours a season high 12 (thanks to Ihnen 3-3 pointers) Wiggins scored 16 off bench - if we had someone that could contribute at that level it would be a different season - Wiggins averages 11 points a game double our bench production - looking back to Maryland’s last 4 games they have had 9 or 10 play (although most only got a minute or two)
 

GophersInIowa said:
Nah, just seems rather childish. Like you're trying to belittle him or something. Just didn't know if there was a particular reason you did it.
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I think calling him Lil' Ricky is very funny because, well, he's Lil' Ricky Pitino. If it bothers others here, even better.
 

Thymanst said:
Thier bench scored 19 points -ours a season high 12 (thanks to Ihnen 3-3 pointers) Wiggins scored 16 off bench - if we had someone that could contribute at that level it would be a different season - Wiggins averages 11 points a game double our bench production - looking back to Maryland’s last 4 games they have had 9 or 10 play (although most only got a minute or two)
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I'm not saying our bench is good or wouldn't help if they were better. I do think it's vastly overrated unless you can have 6-7 not be a drop off. The NET also doesn't push teams to play a bench the last couple minutes. You want to get and keep a lead over 10 or lost under 10. Marylands guys who play a couple minutes here or there are not for breather purposes. I'd bet they were at end of games or for foul trouble. Very few teams truly go 8 deep, but until I see some conclusive data that shows the muscles deteriorate so much more at 38 mins a game vs. 35, I struggle to see how it truly is a bad play. Feel free to critique the idea that guys 6-7 are not good enough to get minutes all you want. I just don't buy the rest thing as much since they have so many built in breaks.
 

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