STrib: MIAC rivals plot ouster of St. Thomas

I think someone needs to change their title to MIAC_4life.
 



They absolutely do verify violations and enforce them. http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/kalamazoo-college-failed-monitor-financial-aid

But yes, the rich schools can absolutely give out more money to everyone. Some schools are just cheaper to begin with.

One school out of 4xx being lazy and careless enough to actually get caught, is not proof.

Every school in DIII that cares about athletics does this to some amount. I mean, pigeonholing scholarships ostensibly available to all students towards athletes, in some amount and some form. They just (mostly) are careful enough to not get caught.

One key statement below:

Penalties in this case include three years of probation and a postseason ban for teams that continue to have student-athletes who are receiving financial aid based on athletics participation. If the college repackages the aid, the teams do not have to serve a ban.

It had nothing to do with what percentage of kids that were athletes had scholarships relative to the general population. It was that participation and talent was openly used as criteria. Had they made scholarships that were solely based on "leadership", and it just so happened that the only people who ever got it were athletes, then it likely would have been fine.
 

One key statement below:



It had nothing to do with what percentage of kids that were athletes had scholarships relative to the general population. It was that participation and talent was openly used as criteria. Had they made scholarships that were solely based on "leadership", and it just so happened that the only people who ever got it were athletes, then it likely would have been fine.
No, the percentages are actively monitored, then they can go in for further investigation and enact bigger penalties if there are even more violations found.
 


No, the percentages are actively monitored, then they can go in for further investigation and enact bigger penalties if there are even more violations found.

Maybe.

You can get a ticket for jaywalking too.
 

No, the percentages are actively monitored, then they can go in for further investigation and enact bigger penalties if there are even more violations found.

It's pretty easy to skew percentages for reporting purposes. Especially when your football team has 152 players while the rest of the conference has an average of 81.

With a roster that large you can give 15 or 20 roster spots to players who are below the school average in institutional aid (which is what the NCAA monitors for D3 schools) and have no chance of playing in a real game anyways -- all of a sudden you have some leeway to provide extra "leadership" scholarships for those top 15-20 players while still meeting NCAA requirements. Not against the letter of the NCAA law, but certainly frowned upon.
 

It's pretty easy to skew percentages for reporting purposes. Especially when your football team has 152 players while the rest of the conference has an average of 81.

With a roster that large you can give 15 or 20 roster spots to players who are below the school average in institutional aid (which is what the NCAA monitors for D3 schools) and have no chance of playing in a real game anyways -- all of a sudden you have some leeway to provide extra "leadership" scholarships for those top 15-20 players while still meeting NCAA requirements. Not against the letter of the NCAA law, but certainly frowned upon.

Right. But who’s doing the frowning? And why should the Whitewaters, Mount Unions, and St Thomases of the world care?
 

It's pretty easy to skew percentages for reporting purposes. Especially when your football team has 152 players while the rest of the conference has an average of 81.

With a roster that large you can give 15 or 20 roster spots to players who are below the school average in institutional aid (which is what the NCAA monitors for D3 schools) and have no chance of playing in a real game anyways -- all of a sudden you have some leeway to provide extra "leadership" scholarships for those top 15-20 players while still meeting NCAA requirements. Not against the letter of the NCAA law, but certainly frowned upon.

The football team is not averaged, they can look at individual players and their aid packages that stand out from the rest and compare it to the average student aid package.
 



Right. But who’s doing the frowning? And why should the Whitewaters, Mount Unions, and St Thomases of the world care?

The frowning is being done right now by most of the rest of the MIAC. That's one of the reasons the other schools are upset.

Whitewater doesn't do it. They're just good because they can admit basically anybody and have a gigantic student population compared to other D3 schools. For them it's not the money, it's simply the student population.
 

The frowning is being done right now by most of the rest of the MIAC. That's one of the reasons the other schools are upset.

Whitewater doesn't do it. They're just good because they can admit basically anybody and have a gigantic student population compared to other D3 schools. For them it's not the money, it's simply the student population.

No that doesn’t work. Because then why aren’t Oshkosh, LaCrosse, and Eau Claire winning national titles in football? They are about the same size.

Size alone doesn’t guarantee it. Nor does being rich guarantee it. Rather, what can be said without doubt, is that the top DIII teams are taking care of their too athletes financially. Whether that is through completely legit, somewhat gray, or sketchy means with regards to general scholarships.
 
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The football team is not averaged, they can look at individual players and their aid packages that stand out from the rest and compare it to the average student aid package.

No they don't. Compliance look at the average. If there are no issues with the average then they sign off on it. Not to mention that the person monitoring this is the compliance employee who works for the school.
 

No that doesn’t work. Because then why aren’t Oshkosh, LaCrosse, and Eau Claire winning national titles in football? They are about the same size.

Size alone doesn’t guarantee it. Nor does being rich guarantee it. Rather, what can be said without doubt, is that the top DIII teams are taking care of their too athletes financially. Whether that is through completely legit, somewhat gray, or sketchy means with regards to general scholarships.

Size doesn't guarantee it, but it's a huge factor in D3 sports. Studies of D3 athletics have shown this. https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics

The UW system is famous for not having any money. UW-Oshkosh folded their men's soccer team due to budget cuts despite it being one of the strongest programs in the region. That's the only thing holding them back. That and the fact that they have to play each other in the regular season. The bottom and middle tier of the MIAC generally won't even play any of the UW schools in football anymore.
 



Size doesn't guarantee it, but it's a huge factor in D3 sports. Studies of D3 athletics have shown this. https://www.academia.edu/27346598/Factors_for_Success_in_NCAA_Division_III_Athletics

The UW system is famous for not having any money. UW-Oshkosh folded their men's soccer team due to budget cuts despite it being one of the strongest programs in the region. That's the only thing holding them back. That and the fact that they have to play each other in the regular season. The bottom and middle tier of the MIAC generally won't even play any of the UW schools in football anymore.

Whitewater has been tremendously successful for some years now. So obviously if you just look at he football championship game participants, you’re going to conclude that you should be like Whitewater in order to get there. But I just gave three examples of schools that are institutional copies of Whitewater.
 

Whitewater has been tremendously successful for some years now. So obviously if you just look at he football championship game participants, you’re going to conclude that you should be like Whitewater in order to get there. But I just gave three examples of schools that are institutional copies of Whitewater.

The examples you gave are also three schools that have to play Whitewater (along with each other) in conference games every year. So of course some of them are going to rack up losses when they have to play each other. They can't all win the championship every year.

Coaching, budgets, facilities, admissions standards, tradition, flexibility of player financial aid, local recruiting scene, and many other factors are in play as well to a lesser degree. But those things matter more when they are going against schools of similar size like the other UW schools.
 

The examples you gave are also three schools that have to play Whitewater (along with each other) in conference games every year. So of course some of them are going to rack up losses when they have to play each other. They can't all win the championship every year.

Coaching, budgets, facilities, admissions standards, tradition, flexibility of player financial aid, local recruiting scene, and many other factors are in play as well to a lesser degree. But those things matter more when they are going against schools of similar size like the other UW schools.

Well the discussion in the thread has been scholarships (wink wink “financial aid”) in DIII. I would contend that’s the main thing most schools have to offer in order to get an athlete to go there. So if you have more “financial aid” to offer an athlete, that should be an advantage. That was all I was going for. All the other stuff you just brought up, is of course important.
 

http://www.startribune.com/augsburg-president-reluctantly-supports-removing-st-thomas-from-miac/509752432/
It's a done deal. Tommies on the way out when they vote at the end of the month.

In an exchange with an Augsburg supporter, Pribbenow wrote that several schools have threatened to leave the MIAC in recent years. He said he wants "the MIAC to remain as whole as is possible," even if it means St. Thomas must be expelled.

"My sense is that we have reached a consensus that will keep 12 schools together in the MIAC and that we will support St. Thomas's efforts to find a new conference home," Pribbenow replied to the Augsburg supporter, who wrote to express his opposition to removing St. Thomas. "I can assure you that if we had not reached this consensus, the MIAC would have imploded, leaving all of us in a far less attractive position."
 

http://www.startribune.com/augsburg-president-reluctantly-supports-removing-st-thomas-from-miac/509752432/
It's a done deal. Tommies on the way out when they vote at the end of the month.

1. The article just says "we have reached a consensus that will keep 12 schools together in the MIAC and that we will support St. Thomas's efforts to find a new conference home". Not sure that means a done deal yet. There is a consensus but no action.

2. Where have they said there will be a vote by the end of the month?
 

The larger point is that the leaked e-mails give the first point of view of the MIAC Presidents. As Pribbenow said, from the Presidents' point of view, this is about saving the conference - or as much of the conference as possible.

The choice is - kick out St. Thomas - or multiple schools leave the conference. from that point of view, you can understand why some of the Presidents may go along with the plan, even if they're not thrilled about it - because the alternative is worse.

As far as the timing - if the Presidents have the votes to change the by-laws and kick St. Thomas out, that might prompt St. Thomas to withdraw voluntarily - or at least give that perception. Try to work out a compromise and allow the parties to save as much face as possible given the situation.
 

The larger point is that the leaked e-mails give the first point of view of the MIAC Presidents. As Pribbenow said, from the Presidents' point of view, this is about saving the conference - or as much of the conference as possible.

The choice is - kick out St. Thomas - or multiple schools leave the conference. from that point of view, you can understand why some of the Presidents may go along with the plan, even if they're not thrilled about it - because the alternative is worse.

As far as the timing - if the Presidents have the votes to change the by-laws and kick St. Thomas out, that might prompt St. Thomas to withdraw voluntarily - or at least give that perception. Try to work out a compromise and allow the parties to save as much face as possible given the situation.

Boy, If I was St Thomas I might resist as long as possible, see who leaves the conference, then decide what is best for St. Thomas.
 

Boy, If I was St Thomas I might resist as long as possible, see who leaves the conference, then decide what is best for St. Thomas.

Not sure hanging on and trashing your last conference is going to put St. Thomas in a good spot to go shopping for a new conference....
 

Not sure hanging on and trashing your last conference is going to put St. Thomas in a good spot to go shopping for a new conference....

They are getting trashed right now by their own conference who wants to boot them because they have become successful. I think other conferences would see things pretty clearly.
 

1. The article just says "we have reached a consensus that will keep 12 schools together in the MIAC and that we will support St. Thomas's efforts to find a new conference home". Not sure that means a done deal yet. There is a consensus but no action.

2. Where have they said there will be a vote by the end of the month?
Everything Pribbenow states is in the past tense. Very clear that they have the votes. The president's meeting is May 29th.
 

They are getting trashed right now by their own conference who wants to boot them because they have become successful. I think other conferences would see things pretty clearly.

So I was like **** my last conference amirite!?!?!?

Anyway I want to join your conference...
 


Can’t possibly see how any logical, reasonable person will think it’s a bad thing for St Thomas to join the Northern Sun.

But I’m certain many will still slam their heads into a brick wall to spite their faces, in trying.
 

Can’t possibly see how any logical, reasonable person will think it’s a bad thing for St Thomas to join the Northern Sun.

But I’m certain many will still slam their heads into a brick wall to spite their faces, in trying.

Tommies might cry if they get monkey stomped in basketball and football by MSU, UMD etl al in the early years before they can build up the scholarship base :)

Tommies would probably compete at a high level right away in almost all other sports.
 

So I was like **** my last conference amirite!?!?!?

Anyway I want to join your conference...

Despite our best efforts to stay in the conference that has been our home for close to 100 years, and to maintain our most cherished rivalry, we came to the hard and painful decision to look for a new conference affiliation.
 

St. Thomas is trophy chasing at the DIII level it was time for them to go. It's not like this just happened the smaller MIAC schools have been tired of St. Thomas for at least 20 years.
 

St. Thomas is trophy chasing at the DIII level it was time for them to go. It's not like this just happened the smaller MIAC schools have been tired of St. Thomas for at least 20 years.

20 years? Hmm. What about St. John's...same could be said for it form Mich longer. Bethel is getting there as well.
 




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