***OFFICIAL MINNESOTA AT UTAH IN-GAME THREAD!!!***


I watched the whole thing. I'm not just saying this: even though they scored plenty of points, it was one of the worst displays of offensive basketball I've seen. It was total scramble ball on most trips down the court. Which, I guess, is potential hope for the future: if they can score points in that mess of an offense, it must mean they have some talent.

I thought that was happening a bit against Butler, Carr seems overwhelmed at PG, a bit of IW in his game, lower your head and go, with the shooters they really need to get in sets and create shots, and add hock offense is not going to be good with this team
 

I thought that was happening a bit against Butler, Carr seems overwhelmed at PG, a bit of IW in his game, lower your head and go, with the shooters they really need to get in sets and create shots, and add hock offense is not going to be good with this team

What you had last year (besides Murphy's double doubles, of course) was Coffey slashing to the basket, which was devastating to defenses, especially with his ability to pass out of the paint. He created a lot of offense out of that ability, and now they have to try to make things out of a more structured offense, and structure is clearly not their strong suit.
 

The first statement is false. His best debut class was Lynch, Coffey, Akeem Springs, and Curry (it also included Hurt but 4 hits and 1 miss is pretty good). On the current team, only Oturu is in the class of those first two players and Springs is better than most of this team. Curry's health situation was just unfortunate. Since that group, we have seen one well above average Big Ten player recruited (Oturu), one-to-three average conference players (Gabe and maybe Carr and Willis), and one decent role player (Matz). The rest have been projects who didn't work out or may or may not work out. It's too early to tell about the current freshmen.

As far as the statements about Coffey and Curry, well, good players often go pro early and injuries, even chronic ones, happen. You have to recruit to compensate for those contingencies.

The last statement is nauseatingly defeatist. I'm glad the administration decided to be more aspirational in thinking when they fired Claeys and hired Fleck. Those kinds of moves won't always work out but you won't know unless you try.

After this season, Pitino will have been here 7 years. We will know what we have just like Nebraska knew what they had when they fired Tim Miles. They decided to hire a star coach to upgrade their program. They are starting out in a worse position than us (virtually an all new team assembled from whatever was available when Fred was hired) and it showed in their first two games but we'll see how much they improve relative to us this season.

Calling Gabe an average player really doesn’t respect his defense and shooting abilities. What do you consider average? Gabe will be a 4 year starter that will probably set gopher records in many different shooting categories as long as he stays healthy.

Also what’s a miss? Maybe the staff always projected Hurt to be an 8-10 minute guy? Maybe they gave him a spot knowing he’d be ok being the number 10-11 guy and will be a good teammate? Not all recruits are selected to be top guys. Even UNC and Duke recruit someone 3 star guys who just want to be a part of it.
 

Calling Gabe an average player really doesn’t respect his defense and shooting abilities. What do you consider average? Gabe will be a 4 year starter that will probably set gopher records in many different shooting categories as long as he stays healthy.

Also what’s a miss? Maybe the staff always projected Hurt to be an 8-10 minute guy? Maybe they gave him a spot knowing he’d be ok being the number 10-11 guy and will be a good teammate? Not all recruits are selected to be top guys. Even UNC and Duke recruit someone 3 star guys who just want to be a part of it.

I probably should have referred to Gabe as an average Big Ten starter. That would have been more correct. But, being a four year starter doesn't make one an elite player. In fact, the elite players often don't play four years. It's not so uncommon for a player to be a four year starter without being particularly elite. I could name a few off the top of my head.

As far as a miss - there are various grades of misses; some are just relative misses (don't live up to expectations). Others are absolute misses. I would say that a player who still contributes little or nothing in limited minutes during his senior year is an absolute miss. You'd like your 8-10 minute guy to be able to do something in those 8-10 minutes especially since he usually isn't playing against a full team of starters. We've had at least two of those during Pitino's tenure: Gaston and Hurt. Bakary didn't develop much in four years either but at least he was big enough and strong enough to hold his ground around the bucket frequently.

"Maybe they gave him a spot knowing he’d be ok being the number 10-11 guy and will be a good teammate?"

That's sentimental homespun nonsense. No coaching staff at this level is going to offer someone a four year scholarship for that reason. You can give one-year scholarships to walk-ons for that reason. Probably they recruited him with the hope that it would have a positive effect on his younger brother's eventual decision. Hope they aren't dumb enough to repeat that mistake in the future.
 


I probably should have referred to Gabe as an average Big Ten starter. That would have been more correct. But, being a four year starter doesn't make one an elite player. In fact, the elite players often don't play four years. It's not so uncommon for a player to be a four year starter without being particularly elite. I could name a few off the top of my head.

As far as a miss - there are various grades of misses; some are just relative misses (don't live up to expectations). Others are absolute misses. I would say that a player who still contributes little or nothing in limited minutes during his senior year is an absolute miss. You'd like your 8-10 minute guy to be able to do something in those 8-10 minutes especially since he usually isn't playing against a full team of starters. We've had at least two of those during Pitino's tenure: Gaston and Hurt. Bakary didn't develop much in four years either but at least he was big enough and strong enough to hold his ground around the bucket frequently.

"Maybe they gave him a spot knowing he’d be ok being the number 10-11 guy and will be a good teammate?"

That's sentimental homespun nonsense. No coaching staff at this level is going to offer someone a four year scholarship for that reason. You can give one-year scholarships to walk-ons for that reason. Probably they recruited him with the hope that it would have a positive effect on his younger brother's eventual decision. Hope they aren't dumb enough to repeat that mistake in the future.

I can not think of a program that did not have misses in recruiting. We have other issues.
 

I probably should have referred to Gabe as an average Big Ten starter. That would have been more correct. But, being a four year starter doesn't make one an elite player. In fact, the elite players often don't play four years. It's not so uncommon for a player to be a four year starter without being particularly elite. I could name a few off the top of my head.

As far as a miss - there are various grades of misses; some are just relative misses (don't live up to expectations). Others are absolute misses. I would say that a player who still contributes little or nothing in limited minutes during his senior year is an absolute miss. You'd like your 8-10 minute guy to be able to do something in those 8-10 minutes especially since he usually isn't playing against a full team of starters. We've had at least two of those during Pitino's tenure: Gaston and Hurt. Bakary didn't develop much in four years either but at least he was big enough and strong enough to hold his ground around the bucket frequently.

"Maybe they gave him a spot knowing he’d be ok being the number 10-11 guy and will be a good teammate?"

That's sentimental homespun nonsense. No coaching staff at this level is going to offer someone a four year scholarship for that reason. You can give one-year scholarships to walk-ons for that reason. Probably they recruited him with the hope that it would have a positive effect on his younger brother's eventual decision. Hope they aren't dumb enough to repeat that mistake in the future.

You can't always get your top kids. Staffs absolutely take guys knowing they'll be 4 yr guys who may still end up being a reserve. Of course they have hope that's they will develop into starters and hopefully stars. It's not that obvious and everyone misses. Where you get killed is on multiple which RP definitely had early when he took terrible character guys. That set him back and he may not have earned the right to recover. However he's rectified his staff and they have better teachers. In staff now. You will see this team be a great defensive team by the end of the year.
 

The first statement is false. His best debut class was Lynch, Coffey, Akeem Springs, and Curry (it also included Hurt but 4 hits and 1 miss is pretty good). On the current team, only Oturu is in the class of those first two players and Springs is better than most of this team. Curry's health situation was just unfortunate. Since that group, we have seen one well above average Big Ten player recruited (Oturu), one-to-three average conference players (Gabe and maybe Carr and Willis), and one decent role player (Matz). The rest have been projects who didn't work out or may or may not work out. It's too early to tell about the current freshmen.

As far as the statements about Coffey and Curry, well, good players often go pro early and injuries, even chronic ones, happen. You have to recruit to compensate for those contingencies.

The last statement is nauseatingly defeatist. I'm glad the administration decided to be more aspirational in thinking when they fired Claeys and hired Fleck. Those kinds of moves won't always work out but you won't know unless you try.

After this season, Pitino will have been here 7 years. We will know what we have just like Nebraska knew what they had when they fired Tim Miles. They decided to hire a star coach to upgrade their program. They are starting out in a worse position than us (virtually an all new team assembled from whatever was available when Fred was hired) and it showed in their first two games but we'll see how much they improve relative to us this season.

I don't think saying his recruiting has gotten steadily better is false. He hasn't recruited more than one/two below average players in the 18, 19, and 20 classes except Freeman and MAYBE Jarvis Omersa, and he can give solid minutes off the bench as an energizer.

Omersa, Oturu, Kalscheur - great shooter/ 3&D player in Kalscheur, all B1G 1st team Center in Oturu, above average bench player in Omersa / maybe a starter his senior year.

Williams, Greenlee, Ihnen, Freeman - Williams will be a solid player next year after some more development, very good athlete, Greenlee hasn't looked bad, Ihnen has all the potential in the world, Freeman will take some time but could be solid

Mitchell, Mashburn Jr. , ? - Mitchell another lengthy athlete with lots of potential, Mashburn Jr. looks tough, can finish around the rim with decent range. Maybe add Garcia to this list in 5 days.

Even if you don't think all these players are great, which they aren't, it's at least getting much more CONSISTENT.

Firing Pitino after this season would be a disaster for the program. It'd set us back another 2-3 years instead of giving Pitino the benefit of the doubt to develop this young team and making a run next year. Say we lose Mashburn Jr. or Martice Mitchell, or both? We wouldn't HAVE a 2020 class, much less two 4* and maybe Dawson Garcia. On top of it, Oturu would likely leave for the NBA after his head coach gets fired - why stay on a volatile team when you can go get paid? If Pitino stays, Oturu maybe stays.

At some point you can't keep blaming Pitino for stuff out of his control. Players leaving early happens all the time, but Coffey didn't give Pitino enough time to get a replacement. He left AT THE DEADLINE. And then Curry tears his knee again to compound the problem.

Using Nebraska as a marker for success is nauseatingly defeatist. I want to see 2-3 years of sustained success from them before deeming their program on an upwards trajectory, not "one year of a winning record".
 

I don't think saying his recruiting has gotten steadily better is false. He hasn't recruited more than one/two below average players in the 18, 19, and 20 classes except Freeman and MAYBE Jarvis Omersa, and he can give solid minutes off the bench as an energizer.

Omersa, Oturu, Kalscheur - great shooter/ 3&D player in Kalscheur, all B1G 1st team Center in Oturu, above average bench player in Omersa / maybe a starter his senior year.

Williams, Greenlee, Ihnen, Freeman - Williams will be a solid player next year after some more development, very good athlete, Greenlee hasn't looked bad, Ihnen has all the potential in the world, Freeman will take some time but could be solid

Mitchell, Mashburn Jr. , ? - Mitchell another lengthy athlete with lots of potential, Mashburn Jr. looks tough, can finish around the rim with decent range. Maybe add Garcia to this list in 5 days.

Even if you don't think all these players are great, which they aren't, it's at least getting much more CONSISTENT.

Firing Pitino after this season would be a disaster for the program. It'd set us back another 2-3 years instead of giving Pitino the benefit of the doubt to develop this young team and making a run next year. Say we lose Mashburn Jr. or Martice Mitchell, or both? We wouldn't HAVE a 2020 class, much less two 4* and maybe Dawson Garcia. On top of it, Oturu would likely leave for the NBA after his head coach gets fired - why stay on a volatile team when you can go get paid? If Pitino stays, Oturu maybe stays.

At some point you can't keep blaming Pitino for stuff out of his control. Players leaving early happens all the time, but Coffey didn't give Pitino enough time to get a replacement. He left AT THE DEADLINE. And then Curry tears his knee again to compound the problem.

Using Nebraska as a marker for success is nauseatingly defeatist. I want to see 2-3 years of sustained success from them before deeming their program on an upwards trajectory, not "one year of a winning record".

Firing after this tear would be bad unless of course you get someone great. Because in that case we would become a better program. Hiring that guy is easier said then done.
 



Firing after this tear would be bad unless of course you get someone great. Because in that case we would become a better program. Hiring that guy is easier said then done.

It seems like you're higher on Pitino now than last year? Why?
 

It seems like you're higher on Pitino now than last year? Why?

Like the continuity of the staff, more attention to defense and finally stressing efficiency. Not that high on him as at least for me you have to establish a identity, win year after year, win conference titles before i think your good.
 

Like the continuity of the staff, more attention to defense and finally stressing efficiency. Not that high on him as at least for me you have to establish a identity, win year after year, win conference titles before i think your good.

Yep. 40-70 conference play record in this market is abysmal. Add in all the swing and misses for top MN talent and it's apparent Pitino is not the guy.
 

A lot of people are hung up on "stars" for recruits. Just FYI, you look at enough sites you will find like 300+ 4* guys. Ryan James and others have essentially said Martice is no 4*, one site said he was so that's what everyone goes with. Fact is he is a huge project and maybe ok. This isnt 4* guy who goes to Duke/UK and is a top 30 player and instant producer. So when people say Pitino has all these 4* recruits so hes clearly getting talent is over simplifying it.
 



A lot of people are hung up on "stars" for recruits. Just FYI, you look at enough sites you will find like 300+ 4* guys. Ryan James and others have essentially said Martice is no 4*, one site said he was so that's what everyone goes with. Fact is he is a huge project and maybe ok. This isnt 4* guy who goes to Duke/UK and is a top 30 player and instant producer. So when people say Pitino has all these 4* recruits so hes clearly getting talent is over simplifying it.

No one is saying Martice is a top 30 Duke recruit. He's a lengthy wing player with a nice handle and a decent looking jumper.

If he puts on some weight and continues to develop he could be a very nice player. Similar to the Isaiah Ihnen project.
 





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