Question for Fleck Critics

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WoodburyTim said:
I am sorry I am sure you are a nice guy, but I think we can both agree you aren't real quick on the uptake. And I think that is where our disconnect is and we'll leave it at that.
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The disconnect is you’ve been whining for 3 years about the head coach. Give it a rest.
 

scools12 said:
The disconnect is you’ve been whining for 3 years about the head coach. Give it a rest.
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WT adds nothing to the board, he’s a complete tool. He wouldn’t exist if he couldn’t insult someone in every post.
 

RememberMurray said:
It's not mine.

My takeaway is simply this: The High Horse Crusaders are always going to be compelled to saddle up and tilt at their insignificant windmills, no matter what.

If you want to enjoy this fabulous football season, ignore their nonsense.
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Just so I understand - these “high horse crusaders” are those that don’t see things the same as you, right?

And, the things that these folks are compelled to keep talking about have been deemed “insignificant” by you, right?

Whew, you go after those self-righteous jerks.


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Spoofin said:
Just so I understand - these “high horse crusaders” are those that don’t see things the same as you, right?

And, the things that these folks are compelled to keep talking about have been deemed “insignificant” by you, right?

Whew, you go after those self-righteous jerks.
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Answer to your question (in case you're actually interested): No.

People who disagree with me are to be expected. Some of them are even worth listening to; I could be wrong, after all. It has happened.

No, Spoofin; High Horse Crusaders are people who wage high-minded moral crusades over truly trivial matters.
 
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RememberMurray said:
I think they might quiet down a bit as the season progresses and the wins pile up.

If they keep up their blather as the team gets 8, 9, 10 wins — and continues to excel in the classroom and the community — well, they'll risk looking pretty ridiculous.

Not that they're far from that already...
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Nope, if we end up having a 9-10+ win season or winning the west I’ll give PJ massive accolades for his coaching ability, recruiting ability, speaking ability and motivating ability (which I already do) but I’ll always ridicule him for making stuff up. Sorry. Never going to change. Other people have issues with the paddles or the acronyms or the running which bothers me less but to each their own. Including you. Right?
 


Pompous Elitist said:
Nope, if we end up having a 9-10+ win season or winning the west I’ll give PJ massive accolades for his coaching ability, recruiting ability, speaking ability and motivating ability (which I already do) but I’ll always ridicule him for making stuff up. Sorry. Never going to change. Other people have issues with the paddles or the acronyms or the running which bothers me less but to each their own. Including you. Right?
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Saddle up, then. Tilt away. Whatever gets you where you need to be.
 

RememberMurray said:
Saddle up, then. Tilt away. Whatever gets you where you need to be.
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Obviously it touches a nerve with you. Why? Genuinely interested why it bothers you. Is it more that I find it distracting and irritating for an otherwise likable coach to exaggerate/fib about meaningless and inconsequential things, or is it just the fact I (we) point these things out?

Again, it’s really his choice to not do it, right?
 

West Fargo Gopher Fan said:
I always love a skeptic. Thats sincere and not sarcasm. When Fleck got hired I remember alot of people upset that Flecks RTB was on team uniforms. Wondering how critics and skeptics feel about that now?

Someday when Fleck is no longer coaching at Minnesota we will look back at these games with RTB and oars on uniforms. Has it been worth it?

In your opinion how much longer (or how many wins if performance based) will Fleck have to coach at Minnesota for you to feel his schtick and RTB was "worth it" or "a good hire"?
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Fleck is paid $3.5M+++ a year to win. Kill and Co. were paid peanuts in comparison and, IMO, their time as HC's was "worth it". They rebuilt the program and established a much better culture than they inherited. Kill said he would never have accepted the job if he knew how bad a shape the program was in. I appreciate the job they did. And he accomplished that in his other stops as well. Fleck's challenge pales in comparison to what Kill stepped into.

Fleck arrived in Minnesota as the flavor of the day hire based only on his work at WMU and brought with him his schtick, culture, a lot of talk and his own justification why it would be OK for the program to struggle. Year Zero was a slap in the face of the previous HC's as well as his complaints about how difficult it will be to win and the endless ya-da-da-da. Many here gulped the Fleck kool-aid and couldn't get enough. Some didn't, yet are repeatedly slammed for not doing the same and chided into how long will it take the "Fleck Critcs" to buy in: "how much longer..........for you to feel.......was "worth it". Get over yourselves.

Is Fleck "worth it" or a "good hire"??? Any reasonable fan will make that determination on his record at the end of this season and beyond and not on his schtick and RTB. Just like most of us did after Kill & Co departed, and their Brick by Brick and Country Jer thing was something in the past.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
Fleck is paid $3.5M+++ a year to win. Kill and Co. were paid peanuts in comparison and, IMO, their time as HC's was "worth it". They rebuilt the program and established a much better culture than they inherited. Kill said he would never have accepted the job if he knew how bad a shape the program was in. I appreciate the job they did. And he accomplished that in his other stops as well. Fleck's challenge pales in comparison to what Kill stepped into.

Fleck arrived in Minnesota as the flavor of the day hire based only on his work at WMU and brought with him his schtick, culture, a lot of talk and his own justification why it would be OK for the program to struggle. Year Zero was a slap in the face of the previous HC's as well as his complaints about how difficult it will be to win and the endless ya-da-da-da. Many here gulped the Fleck kool-aid and couldn't get enough. Some didn't, yet are repeatedly slammed for not doing the same and chided into how long will it take the "Fleck Critcs" to buy in: "how much longer..........for you to feel.......was "worth it". Get over yourselves.

Is Fleck "worth it" or a "good hire"??? Any reasonable fan will make that determination on his record at the end of this season and beyond and not on his schtick and RTB. Just like most of us did after Kill & Co departed, and their Brick by Brick and Country Jer thing was something in the past.
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Hold on, just because “Fleck was hired to win” does not mean he’s going to just hop off the damn plane from western Michigan and all of a sudden the Gophers are f’ing stellar. And Fleck said it was year zero because it wasn’t his recruiting classes, it wasn’t players that knew his coaching style, new playbooks, etc. Also, Fleck came into Minnesota with Demry Croft and Connor Rhoda....you’re saying he didn’t walk into a bit of a **** storm? Those two sucked ass. I’d say the only schools that could switch coaching staffs, and come back with the same strength the next season, are teams like OSU, Clemson, Bama. I’m not saying Fleck is the answer to get us to a national championship team, I’m not saying he’s not. But you know Kill and Claeys were never going to get us there. We lost Kill to medical issues, sadly, because I did enjoy what he created here. Even if it wasn’t going to be what made us a top tier team. Claeys was an uninspiring blob on the sideline that looked as confused at points in the game as those wives that get dragged along to a football game that don’t know what roughing the passer means, or how many points a team gets for a touchdown. Claeys would not have recruited at a level capable of sustaining anything great here. Also, to say Fleck’s challenges pale in comparison is inaccurate. I think the expectations of Fleck are way higher. Fans expect him to win back all the rivalry trophies, they expect him to start grabbing 4-5 star recruits, they expect a Big Ten Championship, they want a Rose Bowl. He has his team at 6-0, easy schedule or not, it’s not an easy task in the college football world. What were the expectations put on Jerry Kill, or Tracy Claeys? Not have a losing record? Keep rivalry games close? Maybe snag a win against a decent Iowa team? Have close losses with TCU or Michigan? Kill might not have complained while he was coach here, but he didn’t make himself look to mature after he left. He’s openly gone after Fleck, even when Fleck has never publicly insulted Kill. In fact I believe he’s been quoted praising Kill. What about Fleck has you so triggered?


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RememberMurray said:
No, Spoofin; High Horse Crusaders are people who wage high-minded moral crusades over truly trivial matters.
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Just so I understand, this name calling is justified because these folks don’t agree with you over what you have determined are trivial matters. Go get those self-righteous jerks.


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Being a stats oriented fan, I think if someone cares enough about accuracy to use specific numbers, rankings, percentages rather than generalities (around, about) then those numbers should mean something. I expect that out of people I work with, colleagues, my wife, my kids...and PJF. I don’t think that’s high-minded and throwing stones in glass houses.
 

So because Jerry Kill was paid less than Fleck, he wasn't "Paid to win games?"

What did we hire him for?



(I liked kill BTW).



Also, Jerry said he wouldn't have come here if he knew it was so bad.
That's on him. Do your due diligence. The reason Kill made less is because he negotiated less.

If there was some gap in understanding, that was between him and Maturi. And if that existed, that may be why Kill was extended to 7 years shortly after arriving.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Being a stats oriented fan, I think if someone cares enough about accuracy to use specific numbers, rankings, percentages rather than generalities (around, about) then those numbers should mean something. I expect that out of people I work with, colleagues, my wife, my kids...and PJF. I don’t think that’s high-minded and throwing stones in glass houses.
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Is this about the "won 5 out of the last 6" or is it the number of Upperclassman vs Freshman / Sophomores?
 



mjfelton15 said:
Hold on, just because “Fleck was hired to win” does not mean he’s going to just hop off the damn plane from western Michigan and all of a sudden the Gophers are f’ing stellar. And Fleck said it was year zero because it wasn’t his recruiting classes, it wasn’t players that knew his coaching style, new playbooks, etc. Also, Fleck came into Minnesota with Demry Croft and Connor Rhoda....you’re saying he didn’t walk into a bit of a **** storm? Those two sucked ass. I’d say the only schools that could switch coaching staffs, and come back with the same strength the next season, are teams like OSU, Clemson, Bama. I’m not saying Fleck is the answer to get us to a national championship team, I’m not saying he’s not. But you know Kill and Claeys were never going to get us there. We lost Kill to medical issues, sadly, because I did enjoy what he created here. Even if it wasn’t going to be what made us a top tier team. Claeys was an uninspiring blob on the sideline that looked as confused at points in the game as those wives that get dragged along to a football game that don’t know what roughing the passer means, or how many points a team gets for a touchdown. Claeys would not have recruited at a level capable of sustaining anything great here. Also, to say Fleck’s challenges pale in comparison is inaccurate. I think the expectations of Fleck are way higher. Fans expect him to win back all the rivalry trophies, they expect him to start grabbing 4-5 star recruits, they expect a Big Ten Championship, they want a Rose Bowl. He has his team at 6-0, easy schedule or not, it’s not an easy task in the college football world. What were the expectations put on Jerry Kill, or Tracy Claeys? Not have a losing record? Keep rivalry games close? Maybe snag a win against a decent Iowa team? Have close losses with TCU or Michigan? Kill might not have complained while he was coach here, but he didn’t make himself look to mature after he left. He’s openly gone after Fleck, even when Fleck has never publicly insulted Kill. In fact I believe he’s been quoted praising Kill. What about Fleck has you so triggered?


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Here's the thing. Why is OK for the Flecksters to not have to defend their opinions but its always necessary to have those with doubts or concerns to fess up? The OP is a good example of this chiding the Fleck Critics when they are going to buy in. Huh? Where is it written that every Gopher fan needs to buy in to Fleck's way of doing things?

Fleck himself has stated that he is not for everyone? He gets it. So why is that its so hard for you and others to accept?

All that matters is the players and administration appreciate Fleck, his style and approach. Who cares what others think.

I have been a ST holder for decades, go to away games and cheer as hard for the team as anyone. I have been waiting a very, very long time for the Gophers to win big and often and hope that Fleck will get us there.
 

WoodburyTim said:
There is maybe, just maybe something between starstruck crush and cynical prick. Maybe not for the purpose of this thread, but I can assure you Section that there is.
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Well, undoubtedly I would be a "fleckster" because I support the coach. I don't think I'm anywhere near "starstruck crush'. I can just see his vision, and I can see it taking shape, and I think he's ahead of the curve on a lot of stuff with college football. And I've suffered through nothing but miserable failures, so it costs me nothing to lend my support and hope he succeeds. If looking past a handful of comments, that are at best hyperbole and at worst outright lies, on meaningless statistics is the price to be a fleckster, count me among their ranks.

Anyone that's a gopher fan that doesn't fall somewhat withing those walls is a cynical prick. And there's 0% chance Fleck would be successful if our fanbase were filled with them. But you protect your ego, doubters. Fall in line with Patrick.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
Here's the thing. Why is OK for the Flecksters to not have to defend their opinions but its always necessary to have those with doubts or concerns to fess up? The OP is a good example of this chiding the Fleck Critics when they are going to buy in. Huh? Where is it written that every Gopher fan needs to buy in to Fleck's way of doing things?

Fleck himself has stated that he is not for everyone? He gets it. So why is that its so hard for you and others to accept?

All that matters is the players and administration appreciate Fleck, his style and approach. Who cares what others think.

I have been a ST holder for decades, go to away games and cheer as hard for the team as anyone. I have been waiting a very, very long time for the Gophers to win big and often and hope that Fleck will get us there.
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I can only speak for myself. If you don't like PJ, fine. Please do call him out when he misstates something or (clutches pearls) LIES. I only jumped in this thread because some absolute Tool was literally OFFENDED by PJ "Mr Positivity and trying to help everyone be their best and spend time with kids with cancer" Fleck. It's astounding. It needs to be absolutely blasted as the most preposterous statement I've ever read on this board.
 

mjfelton15 said:
Hold on, just because “Fleck was hired to win” does not mean he’s going to just hop off the damn plane from western Michigan and all of a sudden the Gophers are f’ing stellar. And Fleck said it was year zero because it wasn’t his recruiting classes, it wasn’t players that knew his coaching style, new playbooks, etc. Also, Fleck came into Minnesota with Demry Croft and Connor Rhoda....you’re saying he didn’t walk into a bit of a **** storm? Those two sucked ass. I’d say the only schools that could switch coaching staffs, and come back with the same strength the next season, are teams like OSU, Clemson, Bama. I’m not saying Fleck is the answer to get us to a national championship team, I’m not saying he’s not. But you know Kill and Claeys were never going to get us there. We lost Kill to medical issues, sadly, because I did enjoy what he created here. Even if it wasn’t going to be what made us a top tier team. Claeys was an uninspiring blob on the sideline that looked as confused at points in the game as those wives that get dragged along to a football game that don’t know what roughing the passer means, or how many points a team gets for a touchdown. Claeys would not have recruited at a level capable of sustaining anything great here. Also, to say Fleck’s challenges pale in comparison is inaccurate. I think the expectations of Fleck are way higher. Fans expect him to win back all the rivalry trophies, they expect him to start grabbing 4-5 star recruits, they expect a Big Ten Championship, they want a Rose Bowl. He has his team at 6-0, easy schedule or not, it’s not an easy task in the college football world. What were the expectations put on Jerry Kill, or Tracy Claeys? Not have a losing record? Keep rivalry games close? Maybe snag a win against a decent Iowa team? Have close losses with TCU or Michigan? Kill might not have complained while he was coach here, but he didn’t make himself look to mature after he left. He’s openly gone after Fleck, even when Fleck has never publicly insulted Kill. In fact I believe he’s been quoted praising Kill. What about Fleck has you so triggered?


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To be fair Jerry Kill had this program on the right track. He and Fleck are basically on the same trajectory. Kill did it by coaching up kids and by having excellent defenses. PJ is trying to do it with better recruits and an offense that can move the ball at will.

I wouldn't say Kill had no chance to get this program where you wanted them to be. He took them to a New Years Day bowl game and they were competiitve with teams in their division. Also, just a FYI, but Minnesota will never play for a National Championship. They just don't get the recruits and never will. Unless you want to get involved with pay for play like the SEC and THE OHIO STATE does, the best you can hope for it a top finish in the BT and New Years day bowl.
 

Section2 said:
I can only speak for myself. If you don't like PJ, fine. Please do call him out when he misstates something or (clutches pearls) LIES. I only jumped in this thread because some absolute Tool was literally OFFENDED by PJ "Mr Positivity and trying to help everyone be their best and spend time with kids with cancer" Fleck. It's astounding. It needs to be absolutely blasted as the most preposterous statement I've ever read on this board.
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You've several times now stated "lies" or LIES. Pray tell, what else do you call it when someone intentionally states something that they know isn't true?
 


Gophers have an undefeated team.

And yet some fans are upset, because other fans don't love the head coach as much as they do.

that is like my brother getting mad at me because I don't like Adam Sandler movies, and he thinks "Happy Gilmore" is a work of art.

different people can have different opinions.

you cannot force someone to share your opinion. (well, I guess you could use torture, but that might be a bit excessive....)
 

dpodoll68 said:
You've several times now stated "lies" or LIES. Pray tell, what else do you call it when someone intentionally states something that they know isn't true?
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I don't "know" that for a fact, that he knowingly states something that is objectively untrue. I've always assumed that PJ tries to spin things that are technically true in some way. Maybe that's wrong, but that's my impression. It's possible that he was mistaken.

So they are "lies" or LIES. I give him the benefit of the doubt, if you don't want to, that's ok. Neither of us has proof. But it's not offensive either way.
 

Section2 said:
I don't "know" that for a fact, that he knowingly states something that is objectively untrue. I've always assumed that PJ tries to spin things that are technically true in some way. Maybe that's wrong, but that's my impression. It's possible that he was mistaken.

So they are "lies" or LIES. I give him the benefit of the doubt, if you don't want to, that's ok. Neither of us has proof. But it's not offensive either way.
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How is "won 4 of the past 5 games" in any way spin? I'd love to know a way in which that's not objectively untrue. And how could he not know that it was a false statement before he said it? He's either lying or stupid - neither paints him a favorable light. That's just the most easily refutable lie - there are many others. Spin away on things that are subjective. Don't lie on things that are objective and demonstrably false.

To be clear, the reason this sh1t bothers me so much is that, in my mind, it takes Fleck's performance to date at the U from a 100 to a 95. Everything else is great and continuing to trend very positively in the right direction. As you've accurately stated, it serves no purpose and does nothing to advance the cause. There is no upside and only drawbacks. But make no mistake, he is lying, not "lying" or LYING.
 

dpodoll68 said:
How is "won 4 of the past 5 games" in any way spin? I'd love to know a way in which that's not objectively untrue. And how could he not know that it was a false statement before he said it? He's either lying or stupid - neither paints him a favorable light. That's just the most easily refutable lie - there are many others. Spin away on things that are subjective. Don't lie on things that are objective and demonstrably false.

To be clear, the reason this sh1t bothers me so much is that, in my mind, it takes Fleck's performance to date at the U from a 100 to a 95. Everything else is great and continuing to trend very positively in the right direction. As you've accurately stated, it serves no purpose and does nothing to advance the cause. There is no upside and only drawbacks. But make no mistake, he is lying, not "lying" or LYING.
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It's not, won 4 of 5 is either a misstatement or a lie. the percentage of the roster stuff, there are a handful of other things that sound like spin, and I assume there's some lens to view the statement where at least PJ believes it's technically true.

My point isn't whether the things he's said are true or false, but whether he thinks they are true or false.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Gophers have an undefeated team.

And yet some fans are upset, because other fans don't love the head coach as much as they do.

that is like my brother getting mad at me because I don't like Adam Sandler movies, and he thinks "Happy Gilmore" is a work of art.

different people can have different opinions.

you cannot force someone to share your opinion. (well, I guess you could use torture, but that might be a bit excessive....)
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No fans are upset because of this.

Try reading post #131.

It has nothing to do with how anyone feels about Fleck.
 
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Section2 said:
I can only speak for myself. If you don't like PJ, fine. Please do call him out when he misstates something or (clutches pearls) LIES. <b>I only jumped in this thread because some absolute Tool was literally OFFENDED by PJ "Mr Positivity and trying to help everyone be their best and spend time with kids with cancer" Fleck. </b>It's astounding. It needs to be absolutely blasted as the most preposterous statement I've ever read on this board.
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And you wonder why I question your reading comprehension? I never claimed any of those things offended me - although you claimed I did 3 times now. Please, continue. I understand with each post why PJ’s lies don’t bother you.


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Section2 said:
It's not, won 4 of 5 is either a misstatement or a lie.
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He has said it many times and still you think it could be a misstatement. THAT is why you are a Fleckster. One with very poor reading skills unfortunately.


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Post #131 is underrated.

I went back and read it. If I could "like" a post, I would like that one multiple times.


I'm fine with a coach "coach-speaking" or "lying" about 5 out of six wins if he goes out and then does was he was lying about.
We are well past winning 5 out of our last 6 at this point, so even if that lie bothered me, I'd probably be okay with it now.

I hope he lies about wanting to make the CFP next.
 

fnJd4Rl.gif
 

Spoofin said:
Just so I understand - these “high horse crusaders” are those that don’t see things the same as you, right?

And, the things that these folks are compelled to keep talking about have been deemed “insignificant” by you, right?

Whew, you go after those self-righteous jerks.
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Your stance on this particular issue has been abundantly clear to even the most casual of observers, even prior to the proliferation of posts in this thread.
 

MennoSota said:
I still find the RTB, HYPPER, FAMILY, and ELITE acronyms to be hokie. Get the beaver tail off the helmet and enough with the anthracite. These things will not impress me. They are unnecessary for public consumption.
That being said. I appreciate winning so if Fleck keeps winning I will appreciate the results. I won't become a lover of silly acronyms, however.
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Fleck doesn’t need all that crap — and that IS what it is, crap — to win. He could win just as well as he is right now, with plain/traditional uniforms, and without all the jargon. Kids don’t buy into that, no matter what he says.

Kids do buy into the family/values/doing the right thing/working hard stuff, when it works, and most importantly winning! Fleck has all that to offer, along with a decent scheme, and great recruiting/eye for talent. He doesn’t need all the weirdness.

An ideal model for him, that I wish he would more closely emulate, is James Franklin at Penn St.

Would highly recommend watching the inside look at their program this season on HBO. They’re doing things right there.


But in the end, of course I’m going to take the wins.
 

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