Souhan: Gophers' P.J. Fleck doesn't have to be the next Lombardi, only Mason or Kill

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per Souhan:

P.J. Fleck arrived at Minnesota painting himself as the next Murray Warmath. Approaching his third Big Ten football opener, it’s time for him to target a more reasonable goal.

It’s time for Fleck to live up to the legacy of Glen Mason.

That notion might not excite Gophers fans, but matching Mason is the least of what should be expected of someone who, all hyperbole aside, ranked among the nation’s best coaching candidates a few years ago.

Mason, too, was considered one of the best candidates in the country when he arrived at Minnesota. After years of what he described as “building,” he wound up with this ledger in 10 seasons: Winning 53% of his Gophers games, and 40% of his Big Ten games.

Jerry Kill wasn’t as celebrated as Mason or Fleck as a candidate — Joel Maturi hired him after he failed to find anyone flashier — but Kill demonstrated considerable coaching chops. Like Mason and Fleck, he talked about building for a few years, and he wound up with this ledger in four-plus seasons: 50% overall, 39% in the Big Ten.

Sense a trend? Two quality coaches won about half of their games at the University of Minnesota, and only 40% of their conference games.

Mason and Kill shared another statistic milestone: Each peaked at 5-3 in the Big Ten. Mason reached that mark twice, Kill once.

Together, they established the bar Fleck will try to clear. But first he has to reach it.

http://www.startribune.com/pressure-is-on-p-j-fleck-to-equal-glen-mason-jerry-kill/561271992/

Go Gophers!!
 


Please go beyond this, I mean pretty much every other team in the BiG has had their moments in the 40+ years I've followed this team. What was it that Kurt Russell said channeling Herb Brooks..."Its our time! So screw em'"
 

I might've missed an interview at some point early in his tenure, but when did PJ ever compare himself to Murray Warmath? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some people painted him as such...

Either way, I agreee with NotAFan: I'm really hopeful the goals are much, much higher than what those other two Gopher coaches accomplished.
 

I think MN can achieve higher. I don't think we'll be Bama, or OSU, but Ia/Wi territory shouldn't be out of the question
 


Had the same divisional alignment existed, Kill’s teams would have been in the mix for a division title late in the season in 2013, 2014, 2016. Mason’s teams would have been in 2003, 2005. However none of those 5 teams finished strong enough to have won the division. Mason’s 2003-2005 stretch included bowl game wins over decent P5 opponents.

PJ’s 2018 team beat WI and beat a P5 team in a bowl game, things that had not happened in 15 and 14 years, respectively.

The next step is to have the team in a position to win the division late in the season. Then, to actually win the division. I don’t think most fan expect that to happen yet this season, but will be very happy if there ends up being a few big games late in the season.
 

MGGopher said:
I might've missed an interview at some point early in his tenure, but when did PJ ever compare himself to Murray Warmath? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some people painted him as such...

Either way, I agreee with NotAFan: I'm really hopeful the goals are much, much higher than what those other two Gopher coaches accomplished.
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Pretty sure he didn't ever do that, just Souhan being the hack that he is.

Won't click the article because don't want to support that guy in any way but this is such a garbage piece from a garbage "journalist". Conference season hasn't even started yet, the team is 3-0 and has been considered as a possible division contender in year 3. Also features a young roster that will return the majority of the key players (especially on offense) next year.

Fleck is well on his way to the Mason/Kill levels of success but he has his sights set much higher then just being solid. He doesn't want to just be as good as Mason or Kill were, he wants to get the program to that next level, the one those two could never reach.

Mason and Kill were good football coaches and had decent runs here but they were never able to make the program into a consistent contender. Time will tell if Fleck can do it but the early returns are fairly promising on a lot of levels. Might not happen this year the way we all hope it will but it is not hard to see this program getting to the point where it can be a legit division contender over the next few years.
 

It can be done.

The Iowa Hawkeyes went 57-128-5 from 1962 to 1980, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

The Wisconsin Badgers went 114-186-9 from 1964 to 1992, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

The Northwestern Wildcats went...well, I don't even want to count all of that. Suffice to say they were awful for forever, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

Same with Purdue. Heck, even Illinois.

It can be done here too.
 

ol' jer is a ball coach. it's who he is, it's in his blood. he helps turn boys into men and football is his vehicle. kill's ability to change lives of the student athletes at the U was cut short due to health reasons, but hopefully fleck's tenure is longer.
 



MGGopher said:
I might've missed an interview at some point early in his tenure, but when did PJ ever compare himself to Murray Warmath? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that some people painted him as such...

Either way, I agreee with NotAFan: I'm really hopeful the goals are much, much higher than what those other two Gopher coaches accomplished.
Click to expand...

Must be his discussions of "building a bridge" from the past.

That's the closest thing I can think of, but I'm not a Murray expert.
Did Murray have Howphers on his team?
 

I think Souhan's column is interesting and thought-provoking, because it indirectly asks what I consider to be the big question: What, exactly, are our expectations, as a fan base?

Is it Iowa-level success? We've actually come close in recent times. If that's our goal, it might be worth the time to scan the Iowa fan boards. They have some interesting things to say about Ferentz and the program.

Is it Wisconsin-level success? Win a B1G West title now and again, and maybe some Top Ten finishes nationally, but that's as far as it goes?

Wait... what's the title of this forum, again?
 
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BS. He needs to be better than Mason and Kill...... Minnesotans accepting mediocrity is galling....

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

RememberMurray said:
I think Souhan's column is interesting and thought-provoking, because it indirectly asks what I consider to be the big question: What, exactly, are our expectations, as a fan base?

Is it Iowa-level success? We've actually come close in recent times. If that's our goal, it might be worth the time to scan the Iowa fan boards. They have some interesting things to say about Ferentz and the program.

Is it Wisconsin-level success? Win a B1G West title now and again, and maybe some Top Ten finishes nationally, but that's as far as it goes?

Wait... what's the title of this forum, again?
Click to expand...

That's the whole game with expectations.

Some guys when they start dating, might date a 6. When dating a 6, some are happy and some decide the 6 isn't good enough and they need a 7.
Others won't settle for a 6 to start with. They hold out for a 9 or a 10.

Some guys marry a 2 or a 3 and they are very happy with that.

Some marry an 8 and decide that's not good enough 3 years in.
Some marry a 9 or a 10 and they can't maintain that level of a relationship and it fails.

Trying to line up expectations across a whole fanbase will be difficult.
 



I practically never read Souhan. When I do, I'm almost always disappointed.

I like what Fleck has done with the program. It seems like we're fielding more and more talent, and there's reason for optimism. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we eclipse that five-win B1G mark this year. (Having an extra conference game helps.) And when we do, I'm sure Souhan will be the first to claim that it's an empty accomplishment.

Funny, Souhan didn't seem to be such a big fan of Kill when he complained about having to watch him "writhing on the ground" when Kill was experiencing a seizure.

JTG
 

I don't think anyone just becomes world beaters overnight so yeah you have to go through phases.
 

Urbandale said:
It can be done.

The Iowa Hawkeyes went 57-128-5 from 1962 to 1980, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

The Wisconsin Badgers went 114-186-9 from 1964 to 1992, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

The Northwestern Wildcats went...well, I don't even want to count all of that. Suffice to say they were awful for forever, and they've since won multiple conference championships.

Same with Purdue. Heck, even Illinois.

It can be done here too.
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Correct. And we're overdue.
 

RememberMurray said:
I think Souhan's column is interesting and thought-provoking, because it indirectly asks what I consider to be the big question: What, exactly, are our expectations, as a fan base?

Is it Iowa-level success? We've actually come close in recent times. If that's our goal, it might be worth the time to scan the Iowa fan boards. They have some interesting things to say about Ferentz and the program.

Is it Wisconsin-level success? Win a B1G West title now and again, and maybe some Top Ten finishes nationally, but that's as far as it goes?

Wait... what's the title of this forum, again?
Click to expand...

Expectations and the varying degrees of them came up a lot in the leadup to the season. The reality is they will always shift based on how the team is doing. For now, getting to the point where we are contenders for the West division on a yearly basis should be enough for most fans. Once we get to the point that we are consistent contenders then the focus will shift again and the target will get bigger but for now it is important to keep expectations realistic.

It is year 3 and there are positive signs of progress within the program. We should expect the team to be competitive and we should expect the team to start winning on a consistent basis. Hopefully we will be in the division hunt this season but by 2020 it should be an expectation that the team can compete for division titles if we are in fact working towards what we all hope we are which is bigger and better things then this program has experienced in a long long time.

But the reality is this all takes time. Iowa and Wisconsin didn't just become good, they worked their way up and have managed to maintain a consistent level of solid play. If it can be done at those two places it can be done here as well.
 

Mason and Kill/Claeys both had Big Ten winning of about 40%.

I think most of us would be very disappointed, and rightfully so, if Fleck cannot do better than that.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Pretty sure he didn't ever do that, just Souhan being the hack that he is.

Won't click the article because don't want to support that guy in any way but this is such a garbage piece from a garbage "journalist". Conference season hasn't even started yet, the team is 3-0 and has been considered as a possible division contender in year 3. Also features a young roster that will return the majority of the key players (especially on offense) next year.

Fleck is well on his way to the Mason/Kill levels of success but he has his sights set much higher then just being solid. He doesn't want to just be as good as Mason or Kill were, he wants to get the program to that next level, the one those two could never reach.

Mason and Kill were good football coaches and had decent runs here but they were never able to make the program into a consistent contender. Time will tell if Fleck can do it but the early returns are fairly promising on a lot of levels. Might not happen this year the way we all hope it will but it is not hard to see this program getting to the point where it can be a legit division contender over the next few years.
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Ditto.

I'd like to think that PJ Fleck will have a higher ceiling and eventually will bring home at least initially a B1G W title.

Recruiting is slightly better than during his predecesors' tenure. He has a vision and is a good promoter of everything Gophers.

It's a tough job to turn around Gopher Football. IMHO, he is the one to do. Jerry Kill laid the dock brickwork where PJ is standing on to row the boat.

He has to recruit even better in the face of stiff competition
 

If all he has to be is Mason or Kill then we could have just kept Claeys. I think most on here including myself believed that Claeys could definitely sustain the level of success he and Jerry had but because he wasn't considered a dynamic recruiter, couldn't take us past that 8-9 win threshold. Fleck on the other hand showed a history of both finding under the radar guys and developing them into studs like Kill and Claeys as well as being a dynamic recruiter, having 3 straight #1 classes in the MAC.
 

die hard gopher said:
If all he has to be is Mason or Kill then we could have just kept Claeys. I think most on here including myself believed that Claeys could definitely sustain the level of success he and Jerry had but because he wasn't considered a dynamic recruiter, couldn't take us past that 8-9 win threshold. Fleck on the other hand showed a history of both finding under the radar guys and developing them into studs like Kill and Claeys as well as being a dynamic recruiter, having 3 straight #1 classes in the MAC.
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I don't want to have a big argument about this, because I think you're already very wise in this area and I think you've heard all this before, etc.

But I'm just curious: do think Barry Alvarez was a dynamic recruiter? What about Kirk Ferentz, dynamic recruiter?
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
Mason and Kill/Claeys both had Big Ten winning of about 40%.

I think most of us would be very disappointed, and rightfully so, if Fleck cannot do better than that.
Click to expand...

Right now the I would be absolutely thrilled if Fleck could get to 40% at the end of this year. At 5-13 in the B10 right now, 27%

If the Gophers go 6-3 this year that would get him to 41%.

Eventually getting above 50% within 3 yrs would be a huge achievement in my opinion. To do that they would need to go 6-3, 5-4 & 6-3. If a few of those wins were trophy games, start planning for a statue.
 

MnplsGopher said:
I don't want to have a big argument about this, because I think you're already very wise in this area and I think you've heard all this before, etc.

But I'm just curious: do think Barry Alvarez was a dynamic recruiter? What about Kirk Ferentz, dynamic recruiter?
Click to expand...

No, I think those are guys who in order to recruit well, need to have the track record on the field. Find a way to win with lesser talent before getting the higher end guys. Fleck, to some extent, I would say is better at convincing guys to come along before having the track record on the field, at least compared to Kill and Claeys. Of course you can still get to the next level by finding a way to win with lesser guys and getting then getting higher guys after you have more substantial results but being a dynamic recruiter can accelerate the process a bit.
 

I see this idea expressed a lot that "If IA and WI can do it, the Gophers can do it." Well, that depends on things that are often beyond the coach's control - support from the administration, budget, facilities, support from the fan base, alums, business community, boosters, etc. Like it or not, WI and IA are more traditional 'college' towns. MN is an urban campus and does not have that same feel as a smaller community where everything revolves around the college team. IA and WI are not in direct competition with an NFL team, etc in the same market.

In other words, just because IA or WI produced a winning program, that does not mean the Gophers can do the same. The circumstances are different.

As far as Souhan - I don't think he was referencing any one thing Fleck said - I suspect he is reacting more broadly to how Fleck was perceived when he came to MN - talking 100mph, the catch-phrases, slogans, and the whole larger-than-life presentation. It gets back to the old "Minnesota" thing. You're supposed to accomplish something before you start talking. Win first, then talk. Fleck came in talking, and (some) people are still waiting for the winning.
 

die hard gopher said:
No, I think those are guys who in order to recruit well, need to have the track record on the field. Find a way to win with lesser talent before getting the higher end guys. Fleck, to some extent, I would say is better at convincing guys to come along before having the track record on the field, at least compared to Kill and Claeys. Of course you can still get to the next level by finding a way to win with lesser guys and getting then getting higher guys after you have more substantial results but being a dynamic recruiter can accelerate the process a bit.
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I see what you mean. Fair enough!
 

Ope3 said:
Right now the I would be absolutely thrilled if Fleck could get to 40% at the end of this year. At 5-13 in the B10 right now, 27%

If the Gophers go 6-3 this year that would get him to 41%.

Eventually getting above 50% within 3 yrs would be a huge achievement in my opinion. To do that they would need to go 6-3, 5-4 & 6-3. If a few of those wins were trophy games, start planning for a statue.
Click to expand...

Right, but take a look at Mason's and Kill's first two seasons as well. Fleck is actually ahead of their pace after 2 seasons. Now, it could definitely be argued that he took over a better roster than either Mason or Kill did.

If Fleck is here for 5 seasons and has a Big Ten winning % under 40, it'll be a huge bummer.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I see this idea expressed a lot that "If IA and WI can do it, the Gophers can do it." Well, that depends on things that are often beyond the coach's control - support from the administration, budget, facilities, support from the fan base, alums, business community, boosters, etc. Like it or not, WI and IA are more traditional 'college' towns. MN is an urban campus and does not have that same feel as a smaller community where everything revolves around the college team. IA and WI are not in direct competition with an NFL team, etc in the same market.

In other words, just because IA or WI produced a winning program, that does not mean the Gophers can do the same. The circumstances are different.

As far as Souhan - I don't think he was referencing any one thing Fleck said - I suspect he is reacting more broadly to how Fleck was perceived when he came to MN - talking 100mph, the catch-phrases, slogans, and the whole larger-than-life presentation. It gets back to the old "Minnesota" thing. You're supposed to accomplish something before you start talking. Win first, then talk. Fleck came in talking, and (some) people are still waiting for the winning.
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True, but what about NW?

I guess it depends on your definition of success, but we can't take away from them that they just won the West last season, for whatever winning the division is worth (I think a lot of us would "take it", for now). They've also won 10 games (10-3 records) in 2012, 2015, and 2017. No division or conference titles in those years, but again it's something a lot of us would take, for now.
 

MnplsGopher said:
True, but what about NW?
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Pat Fitzgerald is 57% overall and 48% in the conference.
Decent recorded. But think MN fans would not have much patience for the type of season Northwestern had in 2013 and 2014. And that’s unfortunate; because they stuck with him, he has raised their ceiling permanently.
 

Zeppelin Gopher said:
Right, but take a look at Mason's and Kill's first two seasons as well. Fleck is actually ahead of their pace after 2 seasons. Now, it could definitely be argued that he took over a better roster than either Mason or Kill did.

If Fleck is here for 5 seasons and has a Big Ten winning % under 40, it'll be a huge bummer.
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Low bar, but it is indeed amazing that based on the wins vs Purdue and Wisconsin, Fleck has better B10 winning pct. Also each won a trophy game (Mason and Kill both beat Iowa).

Mason / 3-13 19%
Kill / 4-12 25%
Fleck / 5-13 27%

Combined road record 2-23. Uffda.
 

Another Soupcan article written on the John?
 

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